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We ignored the bathroom signs and nobody died.

Sorry but you're making this a lot harder than it has to be. What is it in the water that makes some people insist on there being winners and losers? I have no problem accommodating the transsexual or anybody else who want to use the opposite sex facilities, but accommodate him or her with a unisex facility. And allow women to enjoy the privacy of an all women facility and the men an all male facility. Win win for everybody.

Except for every business, public building, park and so on that must now add a 3rd bathroom. Its extremely unrealistic what you are proposing.
 
Except for every business, public building, park and so on that must now add a 3rd bathroom. Its extremely unrealistic what you are proposing.

I'm for allowing businesses to do what they choose to do in such matters. If they want unisex bathrooms, cool. If they want women only and men only bathrooms, cool. If they want no public bathrooms, cool. If they want transgenders to use whatever facility they want, cool. But the third bathroom would meet everybody's preferences except for the perverts. It only needs to be a closet with a stool and a sink, not a really huge burden for most places..
 
When I was in school, showering was not optional. Possibly that has changed, I don't know.


Private stalls would cost more, but considering how much we spend on football and basketball maybe it is an option we should consider.

It has changed in most places because they can't enforce it, not really. There is also a risk of a lawsuit from a parent whose child is forced to shower in front of others who feels so uncomfortable showering with others they even just cry, let alone something worse.


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Lesbians are not part of the equation so far as I am concerned. If they are an issue for you, that is your problem. But the scenarios I mentioned do not need to be done in a stall and could be more difficult to do in a stall. If I choose to change clothes in the ladies' room or fix a broken bra strap or repair makeup or whatever functions women prefer to do without guys looking on, I prefer to do it in a women's only setting. And I also prefer to discuss things as they are, and not the toxic element others wish to insert into it.

But you fixing your bra strap anywhere is your choice, no matter your preference. Just as other women might prefer to fix their bra strap in a place with no one looking, around. Why should they be forced to share with other women?


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What privacy is being violated here? They are stalls. Do women walk out of the stall pants still hanging halfway down, flashing their vagina to all the other women present? If the issues is they shouldn't be ogled at then that issued should be addressed across the board and they should have privacy not to be ogled by lesbians as well.

I can't help but think of this one girl in my division on the ship. She would relax the top half of her coveralls in the plant (it was very hot, and we had on white t shirts underneath), then complain whenever a guy looked her way. She chose to do something in public and then complained about who saw her like that, as if it isn't her choice to do it. A public restroom is still a public place, especially the spaces outside the stalls.


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But you fixing your bra strap anywhere is your choice, no matter your preference. Just as other women might prefer to fix their bra strap in a place with no one looking, around. Why should they be forced to share with other women?


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I don't know. I suppose unlike yourself, most women are pretty practical, look for win-win solutions to problems, and don't choose to introduce a toxic element into an issue that doesn't have to be there. And most of us women don't deal with the ridiculous just to make a point.
 
I don't know. I suppose unlike yourself, most women are pretty practical, look for win-win solutions to problems, and don't choose to introduce a toxic element into an issue that doesn't have to be there. And most of us women don't deal with the ridiculous just to make a point.

There's nothing practical about assuming that fixing your bra in front of women is somehow different than fixing your bra in front of men. It's not ridiculous to be uncomfortable changing or fixing a bra in front of others. Ridiculous is assuming that others should accommodate your being uncomfortable, but only your particular type of discomfort.


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There's nothing practical about assuming that fixing your bra in front of women is somehow different than fixing your bra in front of men. It's not ridiculous to be uncomfortable changing or fixing a bra in front of others. Ridiculous is assuming that others should accommodate your being uncomfortable, but only your particular type of discomfort.


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Yeah well, I sure glad I don't live in your neighborhood if you don't see the difference. Do have a nice day.
 
Yeah well, I sure glad I don't live in your neighborhood if you don't see the difference. Do have a nice day.

Why? Do you believe I have the only public restroom in the area and its unisex? That would be weird.

I work in a store that has had an open restroom/fitting room policy since 2011. We've had very few issues despite having people use restrooms and fittings rooms that don't match even their gender appearance, let alone the transgender shoppers we have. My store hasn't had any issues, but some in the corporation have, just nothing came of them.


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Why? Do you believe I have the only public restroom in the area and its unisex? That would be weird.

I work in a store that has had an open restroom/fitting room policy since 2011. We've had very few issues despite having people use restrooms and fittings rooms that don't match even their gender appearance, let alone the transgender shoppers we have. My store hasn't had any issues, but some in the corporation have, just nothing came of them.

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The fact that you think most women shouldn't care whether men look on while she fixes a broken bra strap would give me reason to give you a wide berth. Thanks for understanding.
 
The fact that you think most women shouldn't care whether men look on while she fixes a broken bra strap would give me reason to give you a wide berth. Thanks for understanding.

Why would you being fixing it where anyone can see you if you are uncomfortable with some certain type of people seeing you do it? It says that you are paranoid of certain types of people, including some who may not even be of that particular group, but you might mistakenly believe they are, because you are choosing to do something in public, because inside a restroom, not a stall, is still public.


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Why would you being fixing it where anyone can see you if you are uncomfortable with some certain type of people seeing you do it? It says that you are paranoid of certain types of people, including some who may not even be of that particular group, but you might mistakenly believe they are, because you are choosing to do something in public, because inside a restroom, not a stall, is still public.


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What I am and am not paranoid about is not the topic of this discussion. I prefer that you focus on the discussion and stop trying to make it about me. Thank you very much.
 
I'm for allowing businesses to do what they choose to do in such matters. If they want unisex bathrooms, cool. If they want women only and men only bathrooms, cool. If they want no public bathrooms, cool. If they want transgenders to use whatever facility they want, cool. But the third bathroom would meet everybody's preferences except for the perverts. It only needs to be a closet with a stool and a sink, not a really huge burden for most places..

Its an absolute minimum of $5,000 to put in another bathroom (usually more like 10k or more) and in most public businesses it might be used a couple of times a year. Just seems ridiculous. I don't know what the big deal is. If a woman is transitioning to a man or has gone through the hormones and surgeries and is a man now, then I don't care if they use my bathroom. Considering that gays, lesbians, and transgendered are victims of violent hate crimes more than any other demographic, the real danger is in forcing someone that living as a man or living as a woman, to use a facility other than the one that matches the gender they identify with.

For example, this transgender (male to female) individual does not need to be using a men's room:

850402B41.jpg

Similarly, this transgender (female to male) does not need to be using a lady's room:

9_41_26.jpg

And frankly saying they can't use the bathroom they identify with is just inventing some cultural war whipping post. I am 40 years old and I can't think of a single time I have ever been in a public restroom when a transgendered individual was in there and if it ever did happen, I obviously didn't know it. I think that is true with 99.99% of the people out there.
 
It has changed in most places because they can't enforce it, not really. There is also a risk of a lawsuit from a parent whose child is forced to shower in front of others who feels so uncomfortable showering with others they even just cry, let alone something worse.


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Wow. Hard for me to imagine. When I was in Middle School, not showering after PE meant you got a "0" for the day AND a whack on the ass with a 2' paddle from the football coach... and if you cried people just made fun of you. Literally nobody gave a **** if you were made uncomfortable.


My how things have changed.
 
What I am and am not paranoid about is not the topic of this discussion. I prefer that you focus on the discussion and stop trying to make it about me. Thank you very much.

It was a general you, includes you if it applies. You expressed that many/most women feel uncomfortable doing things like fixing a bra around men, but they don't really know who in the restroom is a man or woman, or why they may need to be there. It is mainly based on looks, on assumptions. And discomfort is the responsibility of the person feeling it to deal with unless someone is actually doing something to you.
 
Wow. Hard for me to imagine. When I was in Middle School, not showering after PE meant you got a "0" for the day AND a whack on the ass with a 2' paddle from the football coach... and if you cried people just made fun of you. Literally nobody gave a **** if you were made uncomfortable.


My how things have changed.

I guess i never thought it was all that important to shower. I didn't really get smelly at that age, i showered every day at home and would just apply deodorant after PE. I didn't shower, basically because i was too lazy to bring soap/shampoo/clean towel to school and actually shower.
 
I've heard a few horror stories about Brits who tried removing their own sticks before. Let's just say that septic shock and splinters are a bad combination.

Fell on a plunger in the bathtub, indeed?...no kidding...I've actually witnessed this excuse...septic shock, splinters and all.
 
I guess i never thought it was all that important to shower. I didn't really get smelly at that age, i showered every day at home and would just apply deodorant after PE. I didn't shower, basically because i was too lazy to bring soap/shampoo/clean towel to school and actually shower.



I remember the first time I had to strip and shower in a group shower in Middle School (well it was Jr High back then). Very uncomfortable about it.


Often wondered why it was such a big deal, why the school system DEMANDED it be that way so adamantly... I eventually came to the conclusion that it had started as a "preparation for the military" type of thing, but girls were also required to shower in a group shower setting and the military was still mostly male then. It was some sort of "toughen them up" kind of thing I'm sure, along with the hygeine issue.


NOBODY particularly liked it, but we did eventually get used to it.
 
I remember the first time I had to strip and shower in a group shower in Middle School (well it was Jr High back then). Very uncomfortable about it.


Often wondered why it was such a big deal, why the school system DEMANDED it be that way so adamantly... I eventually came to the conclusion that it had started as a "preparation for the military" type of thing, but girls were also required to shower in a group shower setting and the military was still mostly male then. It was some sort of "toughen them up" kind of thing I'm sure, along with the hygeine issue.


NOBODY particularly liked it, but we did eventually get used to it.

Well that makes sense. Part of school is just learning to put up with the stuff they make you do.

I think it's kinda sad when children give up at the first obstacle.
 
Well that makes sense. Part of school is just learning to put up with the stuff they make you do.

I think it's kinda sad when children give up at the first obstacle.




The thing that really PO'd me at school, was that the boy's bathroom toilet stalls had no doors. All the way through High School, no doors.


The girl's bathroom stalls had doors, but not the boys'. Never understood that.



Especially since I grew up in a violent time in a violent school... going to the bathroom was risky enough anyway, and nobody was going to sit there with their pants down around their ankles and no door to offer a little protection while you were vulnerable. At BEST you'd be ridiculed unmercifully if caught thus.... at worst, well I'd rather not even talk about it.


So basically, you held it until you got home, or tried to go between classes when no one else would likely be in there.
 
Wow. Hard for me to imagine. When I was in Middle School, not showering after PE meant you got a "0" for the day AND a whack on the ass with a 2' paddle from the football coach... and if you cried people just made fun of you. Literally nobody gave a **** if you were made uncomfortable.


My how things have changed.

when you were in middle school not everyone was 100 pounds overweight. Everyone today recognizes PE as futility. You can get an 'A' without breaking a sweat

also yes, america is just way more litigious now and parents super protective, and cases like the sandusky scandal means the teachers and coaches are ordered to stay the hell away
 
when you were in middle school not everyone was 100 pounds overweight. Everyone today recognizes PE as futility. You can get an 'A' without breaking a sweat

also yes, america is just way more litigious now and parents super protective, and cases like the sandusky scandal means the teachers and coaches are ordered to stay the hell away



Well, TBH things probably needed to change, at least some.


I often compared my Jr High to a prison. There was a constant threat of violence, and actual violence occurred daily; half the staff were either indifferent or sadistic towards the kids; and basically no adults gave a flying **** what any of the students thought or wanted or how anyone felt or whether we liked it or not. If the school said you'd done thus-n-so, parents tended to assume the school was right and you were wrong and if you tried to explain anything different you were lying.

Verbal/emotional bullying? Hell, the teachers not only ignored it, they often condoned it and even encouraged it. And took part in it.


Not only could teachers beat your ass, they could do so at will for whatever reason they thought was sufficient, and apparently were rarely questioned or held accountable for it by the administration.


At the same time, we had 16, 17, 18yo's still there at Jr High, failing again and again, and making life miserable for all the smaller, less-developed kids.


Frigging hell-hole of a place.


OTOH we may have gone TOO far in the opposite direction today... treating kids like fragile glass...
 
I remember the first time I had to strip and shower in a group shower in Middle School (well it was Jr High back then). Very uncomfortable about it.


Often wondered why it was such a big deal, why the school system DEMANDED it be that way so adamantly... I eventually came to the conclusion that it had started as a "preparation for the military" type of thing, but girls were also required to shower in a group shower setting and the military was still mostly male then. It was some sort of "toughen them up" kind of thing I'm sure, along with the hygeine issue.


NOBODY particularly liked it, but we did eventually get used to it.

Even after swimming we had individual stalls and places to change if we were uncomfortable changing in front of others. I didn't see group showers until boot camp and only in boot camp (the ship had individual stalls).


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Well, TBH things probably needed to change, at least some.


I often compared my Jr High to a prison. There was a constant threat of violence, and actual violence occurred daily; half the staff were either indifferent or sadistic towards the kids; and basically no adults gave a flying **** what any of the students thought or wanted or how anyone felt or whether we liked it or not. If the school said you'd done thus-n-so, parents tended to assume the school was right and you were wrong and if you tried to explain anything different you were lying.

Verbal/emotional bullying? Hell, the teachers not only ignored it, they often condoned it and even encouraged it. And took part in it.


Not only could teachers beat your ass, they could do so at will for whatever reason they thought was sufficient, and apparently were rarely questioned or held accountable for it by the administration.


At the same time, we had 16, 17, 18yo's still there at Jr High, failing again and again, and making life miserable for all the smaller, less-developed kids.


Frigging hell-hole of a place.


OTOH we may have gone TOO far in the opposite direction today... treating kids like fragile glass...

all that hasn't changed unfortunately, except for the paddles and i don't recall many 18 year olds in jr high...they simply drop out

but when that verbal/emotional abuse and violence leads to suicides and that becomes well publicized with the media today, i think you'll find that they are actually 'fragile glass' at that age. It is a prison still and that's why home schooling is at record numbers

public showers aren't inherently traumatic even at that age. We had them at summer camp (again, communal living, but i think the camp was like 100 years old so no privacy) and it was no big deal because camp was relaxed fun. What matters is the setting. Middle school IS traumatic. If i had to endure what you described and with all the other crap going on personally, dunno, it might've set me over the edge

which brings me to this point: IF there were a transgender kid in the opposite sex locker room, and IF showers were required, who do you think it will be more traumatic for? I would hate to be that kid, let me tell you
 
....

which brings me to this point: IF there were a transgender kid in the opposite sex locker room, and IF showers were required, who do you think it will be more traumatic for? I would hate to be that kid, let me tell you


I can understand your point. Personally I think if they're going to mandate changing/showers, then they need to provide individual stalls for privacy. Curtains. Something.


But apparently communal showers are on the way out anyway.
 
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