SRS Results Tend to be Skewed

We've all seen the claims that over 90% of the people undergoing sexual reassignment surgery are happy campers, have no regrets and are better off post-op than they were before the surgery. As a result, these self-reported satisfaction rates are then used as reason to continue the barbaric mutilations and hormone therapies we see today. Well, inquiring minds may wish to look deeper into this.

This article examines objectively measured outcomes with subjective ones. The gist being that the science is not sound. "We must be skeptical and refuse to accept emotionally motivated claims of 'necessity' that are not supported by long term evidence. "

Suicide:

The Dhejne and Asscheman studies both found increased mortality and risk of suicide among transsexuals compared to control groups.

Trans-identification is often presented as a crisis. It is commonly claimed that trans-identified people are suicidal or in danger of being self-injurious because of their self-assessed sex-incongruence. Yet the findings in these studies contradict arguments that surgery and/or cross-sex hormones are urgently necessary interventions in order to prevent or stop suicide and other self-harming behaviors.

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In short, if SRS is prescribed in order to alleviate suicidal tendency, why then do post SRS still exhibit high rates of suicide? Obviously more science is needed which delves deeper into this disconnect. The article discusses this in more detail


Criminality:

Based on these findings, “sex reassignment” does not reduce criminality in male-to-females (transwomen). At the same time, it seems to increase criminality for female-to-males (transmen). From a crime reduction standpoint, this is very concerning.

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Yes, it is concerning, and increased criminality (or the lack of reduction thereof) is one of the issues you do not hear much about from those promoting SRS as appropriate therapy. All you hear is, "Most of those getting reassignment show improvement," or some other ambiguous subjective analysis.

Surgical complications:

The results of this particular study actually underscore one of the points I wish to make: overwhelmingly positive subjective outcomes were reported in spite of significant negative objective outcomes. Just read the abstract. Over a quarter of the participants had serious failures in functional outcomes of one kind or another, yet they still rated their subjective satisfaction with the procedures very highly. This should be a red flag to the researchers.* There are a number of reasons why the results might skewed. I’ve read some very interesting theories, which we can discuss in the comments, but until there is more and better long term research, we can’t be sure. In the meantime, we have reason to be concerned, particularly about physical complications with phalloplasty.

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Hmmm...this almost reads like the common subjective response is, "Sure the surgery physically ****ed me up, but...Hey! I like the results anyway."


I suggest reading the whole article to get a better feel for the argument.

Evaluating long term studies on the efficacy of “sex reassignment” procedures: objective versus subjective measurements | Sex matters.

IMO, it makes a solid case for making more thorough use of science, double-blind studies and what-not, before reaching the conclusion that SRS is a solution to gender dysphoria. Obviously, we owe to these patients. We should all be sure that their doctors know what the hell they are doing before allowing them to recommend surgical mutilation and a lifetime of hormone therapy.

You do realize that is just a blog that someone put up, using the same tired bad articles , all from someone that apparently has an obsession , and is very bigoted against the concept of transgenderism. This person also has not credentials in the field.

calamity said:

:
In short, if SRS is prescribed in order to alleviate suicidal tendency, why then do post SRS still exhibit high rates of suicide?

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Because even after surgery many trans people are still ostracized by society

/thread

instagramsci said:

Because even after surgery many trans people are still ostracized by society

/thread

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So, then why bother with the surgery? After all, they'll still be ostracized and commit suicide anyway. :roll:

Methinks you missed the whole point of the article.

RAMOSS said:

You do realize that is just a blog that someone put up, using the same tired bad articles , all from someone that apparently has an obsession , and is very bigoted against the concept of transgenderism. This person also has not credentials in the field.

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So, you'd rather ignore objective evidence and simply lean on the biased subjective opinions? The author is only suggesting we use some real science here instead of the pseudoscience of relying on heavily opinionated results.

calamity said:

So, then why bother with the surgery? After all, they'll still be ostracized and commit suicide anyway. :roll:

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they should just keep kill themselves and save them and everyone else the trouble then. two birds one stone

calamity said:

So, you'd rather ignore objective evidence and simply lean on the biased subjective opinions? The author is only suggesting we use some real science here instead of the pseudoscience of relying on heavily opinionated results.

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How do you suggest removing the stigma around trans people?

Gender abolition?

instagramsci said:

How do you suggest removing the stigma around trans people?

Gender abolition?

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That's not what this thread is about. The thread is about unnecessary surgery and hormone treatments, practices which may provide little or no objective benefit and may actually do harm.

calamity said:

That's not what this thread is about. The thread is about unnecessary surgery and hormone treatments, practices which may provide little or no objective benefit and may actually do harm.

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What do you suggest is done instead?

calamity said:

That's not what this thread is about. The thread is about unnecessary surgery and hormone treatments, practices which may provide little or no objective benefit and may actually do harm.

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That's not what you posted points to. The hormones and surgery have high success rates in providing relief from the gender dysphoria one faces. The still increased suicide rates among the trans* population is indicative of a societal problem of our treatment towards trans* people, and how they are more likely to be poor, and ostracized, and disowned by their family, homeless, be forced into the sex trade, etc. That is where that suicide number is coming from, not the treatment for the dysphoria.

Though, you probably won't accept that considering you want to push an agenda that disparages trans* people and belittles their identities. The cure for these suicide numbers is to end the social stigma around being trans*, and to provide better access and care for these people. Especially if they are young and/or vulnerable, to the factors that lead to suicide, some of which I mentioned above. Of course, the truth of the matter is something you'd rather ignore, since again, trans* people to you are icky, and something you don't understand. So instead of trying to understand them, you post misinformation about why suicide numbers are still high after treatment. Shameful.

calamity said:

So, then why bother with the surgery? After all, they'll still be ostracized and commit suicide anyway. :roll:

Methinks you missed the whole point of the article.

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Because, the rate of suicide is much less, and the ones that do not commit suicide has richer, more fulling life for themselves (according to them).

calamity said:

So, you'd rather ignore objective evidence and simply lean on the biased subjective opinions? The author is only suggesting we use some real science here instead of the pseudoscience of relying on heavily opinionated results.

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Except, you are using the same old crap that was refuted, just presented from a person who also is showing an extreme prejudice against people, rather than presenting it directly yourself.

RAMOSS said:

Because, the rate of suicide is much less, and the ones that do not commit suicide has richer, more fulling life for themselves (according to them).

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Correct, self-assessments. It is this use of self-assessment---usually a short term self-assessment, at that---which brings into question the efficacy of the mutilating surgery and lifelong hormone treatments.

There seems to be a dearth of objective research with results supporting the self-assessments. To the contrary, there is in fact quite a bit contradicting these assessments. For example, a self-assessment of surgical satisfaction even though there are physical problems with the surgery is inconsistent, and that alone warrants further review.

Remember, we are green-lighting major reconstructive surgery without doing the due diligence of proper science. That's a problem.

calamity said:

We've all seen the claims that over 90% of the people undergoing sexual reassignment surgery are happy campers, have no regrets and are better off post-op than they were before the surgery. As a result, these self-reported satisfaction rates are then used as reason to continue the barbaric mutilations and hormone therapies we see today. Well, inquiring minds may wish to look deeper into this.

This article examines objectively measured outcomes with subjective ones. The gist being that the science is not sound. "We must be skeptical and refuse to accept emotionally motivated claims of 'necessity' that are not supported by long term evidence. "

Suicide:

In short, if SRS is prescribed in order to alleviate suicidal tendency, why then do post SRS still exhibit high rates of suicide? Obviously more science is needed which delves deeper into this disconnect. The article discusses this in more detail


Criminality:

Yes, it is concerning, and increased criminality (or the lack of reduction thereof) is one of the issues you do not hear much about from those promoting SRS as appropriate therapy. All you hear is, "Most of those getting reassignment show improvement," or some other ambiguous subjective analysis.

Surgical complications:

Hmmm...this almost reads like the common subjective response is, "Sure the surgery physically ****ed me up, but...Hey! I like the results anyway."


I suggest reading the whole article to get a better feel for the argument.

Evaluating long term studies on the efficacy of “sex reassignment” procedures: objective versus subjective measurements | Sex matters.

IMO, it makes a solid case for making more thorough use of science, double-blind studies and what-not, before reaching the conclusion that SRS is a solution to gender dysphoria. Obviously, we owe to these patients. We should all be sure that their doctors know what the hell they are doing before allowing them to recommend surgical mutilation and a lifetime of hormone therapy.

Click to expand...

I've never met a tranny who wasn't a psychological basket case, usually with multiple psychiatric problems before and after coming out of which a tranny identity is just one manifestation.

There has been a very big gender clinic at Johns Hopkins for many years. They did sex change surgery starting in the 1960s but eventually found out that patients didn't benefit from the surgery and so they stopped doing it. Now the former head of psychiatry in that program is saying that the surgery was a mistake. Transsexuals need psychotherapy not surgery, he says.

They got similar results in the Karolinska Institute in Sweden. They found that sex change patients ran into tremendous psychological problems about 10 years after the change associated with a 20 fold increase in suicide.

Paul McHugh: Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution - WSJ

LowDown said:

I've never met a tranny who wasn't a psychological basket case, usually with multiple psychiatric problems before and after coming out of which a tranny identity is just one manifestation.

There has been a very big gender clinic at Johns Hopkins for many years. They did sex change surgery starting in the 1960s but eventually found out that patients didn't benefit from the surgery and so they stopped doing it. Now the former head of psychiatry in that program is saying that the surgery was a mistake. Transsexuals need psychotherapy not surgery, he says.

They got similar results in the Karolinska Institute in Sweden. They found that sex change patients ran into tremendous psychological problems about 10 years after the change associated with a 20 fold increase in suicide.

Paul McHugh: Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution - WSJ

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The lack of objective, long-term benefit with SRS seems to be the major issue with which the PC crowd refuses to grapple. It actually amazes me how easily people stick their heads in the sand on this.

It's as if the approach: "They want it, so it must be OK"; is good enough. Well, that's not science. That's bull****.

RAMOSS said:

Except, you are using the same old crap that was refuted, just presented from a person who also is showing an extreme prejudice against people, rather than presenting it directly yourself.

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What's refuted--the suicides, the physical side effects to the surgeries, the increased crime rates? Seriously? Sounds more to me like you refusing to look at the evidence and simply parroting the old, "Their victims of discrimination" line to explain away the results of the various studies researching multiple problems associated with the surgery.

Your Star said:

That's not what you posted points to. The hormones and surgery have high success rates in providing relief from the gender dysphoria one faces. The still increased suicide rates among the trans* population is indicative of a societal problem of our treatment towards trans* people, and how they are more likely to be poor, and ostracized, and disowned by their family, homeless, be forced into the sex trade, etc. That is where that suicide number is coming from, not the treatment for the dysphoria.

Though, you probably won't accept that considering you want to push an agenda that disparages trans* people and belittles their identities. The cure for these suicide numbers is to end the social stigma around being trans*, and to provide better access and care for these people. Especially if they are young and/or vulnerable, to the factors that lead to suicide, some of which I mentioned above. Of course, the truth of the matter is something you'd rather ignore, since again, trans* people to you are icky, and something you don't understand. So instead of trying to understand them, you post misinformation about why suicide numbers are still high after treatment. Shameful.

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If suicide is still a problem post-op, then the surgery and hormones did nothing to help that issue. So, why defend it? Oh--that's right, because people say they feel better. At least they do until they blow their brains out. :roll:

BTW, you completely ignored the problem of higher crime rates for FTM transexuals and the lack of reduced crime for the MTF. Also, not to be ignored are the physical problems associated with the surgery.

instagramsci said:

What do you suggest is done instead?

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Don't know. My argument is only that we should set loose the quacks on these poor people who use them as lucrative guinea pigs.

calamity said:

Don't know. My argument is only that we should set loose the quacks on these poor people who use them as lucrative guinea pigs.

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McHugh is a quack but you seem to be a fan of him

instagramsci said:

McHugh is a quack but you seem to be a fan of him

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He may very well be, although a Harvard Medical School educated doctor is hard to call a quack out of hand. But at least we agree that there may be quacks out there, especially pertaining to this issue. That's a start.

calamity said:

He may very well be, although a Harvard Medical School educated doctor is hard to call a quack out of hand. But at least we agree that there may be quacks out there, especially pertaining to this issue. That's a start.

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A Harvard education does not preclude someone from being wrong

instagramsci said:

A Harvard education does not preclude someone from being wrong

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You're close to catching on to the point of the thread. Even the highly educated, so-called experts can be wrong. That's why we need objective, empirical evidence before jumping to conclusions. Would it not be wise to be certain of the benefits, quantify them with hard non-subjective, unbiased data, before we begin mutilating people?

calamity said:

You're close to catching on to the point of the thread. Even the highly educated, so-called experts can be wrong. That's why we need objective, empirical evidence before jumping to conclusions. Would it not be wise to be certain of the benefits, quantify them with hard non-subjective, unbiased data, before we begin mutilating people?

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I think you'll be hard pressed to find "objective empirical evidence"

Are you familiar with epistemology

instagramsci said:

I think you'll be hard pressed to find "objective empirical evidence"

Are you familiar with epistemology

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I don't think knowledge on this subject is limited or in any way unknowable. And, if by chance it is, then that is all the more reason not to mutilate people. After all, that is what this thread is about. Do we know enough about SRS to warrant surgical mutilation and lifelong hormonal dependence?

Evidence suggests we do not. In fact, it suggests we have jumped the gun, proceeding with a dubious solution that does not even work: it does not reduce suicides, does not reduce criminality and there are resulting physical side effects from the surgery. If anything, the evidence suggests it's a failure.

Long term double blind studies of transexuals are needed, where the numbers are crunched without anyone knowing anything about who submitted them. Objective analysis should supersede subjective self-assessment. But, it doesn't in this area. Smart question to ask is. Why?

Your Star said:

That's not what you posted points to. The hormones and surgery have high success rates in providing relief from the gender dysphoria one faces. The still increased suicide rates among the trans* population is indicative of a societal problem of our treatment towards trans* people, and how they are more likely to be poor, and ostracized, and disowned by their family, homeless, be forced into the sex trade, etc. That is where that suicide number is coming from, not the treatment for the dysphoria.

Though, you probably won't accept that considering you want to push an agenda that disparages trans* people and belittles their identities. The cure for these suicide numbers is to end the social stigma around being trans*, and to provide better access and care for these people. Especially if they are young and/or vulnerable, to the factors that lead to suicide, some of which I mentioned above. Of course, the truth of the matter is something you'd rather ignore, since again, trans* people to you are icky, and something you don't understand. So instead of trying to understand them, you post misinformation about why suicide numbers are still high after treatment. Shameful.

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I can say I've been far better, and well adjusted since I started HRT, my neighbor just had top surgery and she's VERY happy as well.