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Sexism against men.

Absentglare said:
There is a culturally inability to appreciate domestic abuse toward men.

The victims of abuse often do not retaliate. There is no relevance if the victim can overpower the aggressor when the victim does not choose to try.
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The problem is, especially in case of male victim/female aggressor, by overpowering and protecting themselves from the aggressor, the victim is quickly the abuser not the original aggressor.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Before the feminists rant and rave about the MRI or whatever, this is truly about sexism against men so heart me out.

I have a friend named James. He had been dating a fellow named Will for a few years. I've known James for many years, I met Will shortly after James did. Well seemed like an easy going fellow, only two years older than James who just turned forty last year. They got married in August. And after nearly four years his relationship changed. Just before they were married James was laid off.

He took a job as a valet. And all the sudden things changed. Anyway Will became extremely verbally abusive toward James in my presence. It got to the point I didn't want to see Will when I visited with James. I used to see him every day and now he disappears for weeks at a time no calls or anything. I got a call last week from him. He needed a ride to the hospital. He had a work related injury. Before I took him home he literally broke down to tears. Turns out Will has been abusing him. I try to talk him into staying with us. But he is scared because well would know exactly where to look. I try to tell him Will would regret starting things with us. But he must go back home. So I call the domestic abuse hotlines and they almost laugh at me when I explain.

Why is it a laughing matter when domestic abuse is directed at men?
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James should punch will in the mouth.
 
calamity said:
Does the friend really want to leave and can't or is he waffling, someone holding onto hope that things will change for the better?

1. If A, then he should take the lgbt help, as should anyone else in that situation

2. If B, there is not much you or anyone else can do.
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I think that, male or female, this is similar to substance abuse, alcoholism, etc. You cant make someone change their situation until *they* are ready, which is often 'hitting bottom.' Which is incredibly hard to watch as a loved one. And sometimes...the 'bottom' is death.

Wow, I sure was Debbie Downer there!
 
maquiscat said:
The problem is, especially in case of male victim/female aggressor, by overpowering and protecting themselves from the aggressor, the victim is quickly the abuser not the original aggressor.
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If someone initiates violence on you, you should have the right to retaliate without being condemned as the initiator of violence. Sentiments like yours here are one reason why men, who are the victims of physical abuse at the hands of women, simply accept getting beaten.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Before the feminists rant and rave about the MRI or whatever, this is truly about sexism against men so heart me out.

I have a friend named James. He had been dating a fellow named Will for a few years. I've known James for many years, I met Will shortly after James did. Well seemed like an easy going fellow, only two years older than James who just turned forty last year. They got married in August. And after nearly four years his relationship changed. Just before they were married James was laid off.

He took a job as a valet. And all the sudden things changed. Anyway Will became extremely verbally abusive toward James in my presence. It got to the point I didn't want to see Will when I visited with James. I used to see him every day and now he disappears for weeks at a time no calls or anything. I got a call last week from him. He needed a ride to the hospital. He had a work related injury. Before I took him home he literally broke down to tears. Turns out Will has been abusing him. I try to talk him into staying with us. But he is scared because well would know exactly where to look. I try to tell him Will would regret starting things with us. But he must go back home. So I call the domestic abuse hotlines and they almost laugh at me when I explain.

Why is it a laughing matter when domestic abuse is directed at men?
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.... James... like... black James?
 
Absentglare said:
If someone initiates violence on you, you should have the right to retaliate without being condemned as the initiator of violence. Sentiments like yours here are one reason why men, who are the victims of physical abuse at the hands of women, simply accept getting beaten.
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Sadly rights don't always reflect reality. This is not my sentiment. I fully am on the camp that if anyone, male or female, begins beating on me, at least without consent, I am going to do all I can to stop them.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Before the feminists rant and rave about the MRI or whatever, this is truly about sexism against men so heart me out.

I have a friend named James. He had been dating a fellow named Will for a few years. I've known James for many years, I met Will shortly after James did. Well seemed like an easy going fellow, only two years older than James who just turned forty last year. They got married in August. And after nearly four years his relationship changed. Just before they were married James was laid off.

He took a job as a valet. And all the sudden things changed. Anyway Will became extremely verbally abusive toward James in my presence. It got to the point I didn't want to see Will when I visited with James. I used to see him every day and now he disappears for weeks at a time no calls or anything. I got a call last week from him. He needed a ride to the hospital. He had a work related injury. Before I took him home he literally broke down to tears. Turns out Will has been abusing him. I try to talk him into staying with us. But he is scared because well would know exactly where to look. I try to tell him Will would regret starting things with us. But he must go back home. So I call the domestic abuse hotlines and they almost laugh at me when I explain.

Why is it a laughing matter when domestic abuse is directed at men?
Click to expand...

Anyone working at a place dedicated to helping victims of domestic abuse who brushes you off or laughs at your inquiries is obviously not being educated properly about the psychological effects of domestic abuse as well as the statistics. Men are often the victims of domestic abuse, both physical and psychological; if I remember my statistics correctly, men are more often the victim than the abuser. The only reason people assume women are always the victims or that women can't be abusers is because sexism and the disparity between physical damage caused. I hope James is able to find the help and support he needs to get away from Will. You're a good man for doing what you can to help him.
 
The whole "why doesn't the victim just leave?" thing is such a tired refrain and a product of nothing more than ignorance. There are many reasons why a person doesn't just up and leave.

The #1 reason, believe it or not, is that the victim may not even frame their situation as "abuse". It doesn't matter how many times you hear stories of domestic abuse, when it's happening to you, it's completely different. There's a lot of well established psychology behind this. A lot of domestic abuse victims don't end up leaving until their lives are severely threatened or they somehow get an outside perspective. When you really love someone, it's hard to frame their behavior in black and white terms, especially if the relationship has unhealthy boundaries.

There may be combined finances. The victim may have no one reliable to turn to. There may be children involved. Often the victim is already isolated. Friendships and community they had before the relationship may be cut off. When you live in that private world of just the two of you for so long, you may not realize something dysfunctional is happening because you no longer have a frame of reference.

The abuser may have convinced the victim that the situation is their fault, and the victim will modify their behavior in order to try and make it better, resulting in more isolation. Over time, the victim actually sees themselves as the abuser, and the abuser as the victim. The victim may be subject to gaslighting, which is when the abuser, over time, breaks down the victim's ability to trust their own thoughts and perceptions about what has been happening by making them doubt their memories and capacities.

There may be a rescuer dynamic, which is when the abuser openly admits that they have a problem and want to get better but don't know how, and needs the victim's help to improve. This is a VERY common dynamic when the abuser is a narcissist and the victim is highly empathic. The empath learns to see beyond all bad behaviors.

Like any relationship, partnerships with domestic abuse start out as love relationships. That love often continues, even into an abuse situation. When you open up your heart and soul to someone, it makes you less willing to abandon them. Most of the stories about abuse survivors talk about if some random stranger came up to them and tried hitting them, they would fight back, but when it came to their love relationship they couldn't see things clearly.

Most people in love relationships find conflicts more confusing than they'd otherwise be. Outsiders look at the relationship and can see exactly what is happening but from an insider perspective it's not so clear.

The list goes on. This issue is to do with human nature, and not people being weak and stupid. You often don't find out you're dating an abuser until long after you've fallen in love with them. Though IMO there are usually warning signs.

Signed,

Someone who has been in this situation.
 
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And yes, there are systemic biases against men in this situation. Statistically, men are usually the abusers and so this translates into believing that all men are the strong-arming type who would never succumb to abuse themselves. It's one of the mythologies of old school masculinity that's still fairly pervasive. The irony is that being a victim of domestic abuse isn't about how strong or weak you are. Many victims of abuse have endured cruelty and suffering beyond what others could handle, through sheer determination and commitment to their relationships. It's a dysfunctional commitment, but a commitment nonetheless.

Some of the stories I've read involve really independent men and women with developed careers and strong personalities, suddenly finding themselves in a dystopian environment and second guessing themselves, sequestered from all normal life. Narcissists and sociopaths are very skilled at getting people where they want them and they tend to deliberately target people of strong character so they can feed off of their strength. In the case of narcissists, they actually have very low self-esteem and need constant reassurance, and if the victim has high empathy then it's their compassion which will suck them into a very bad scene. They'll learn to not see themselves as a victim but rather someone experiencing the fallout of a wounded person that really needs help and care.

I also find it really weird that there are so few support groups for abusers themselves. It's all about the victims. Abusers really do have a problem and some want to get better, but there's no agency. The system is punitive toward them. They usually don't get the help they need until they're already facing a judge.
 
Northern Light said:
And yes, there are systemic biases against men in this situation. Statistically, men are usually the abusers and so this translates into believing that all men are the strong-arming type who would never succumb to abuse themselves. It's one of the mythologies of old school masculinity that's still fairly pervasive. The irony is that being a victim of domestic abuse isn't about how strong or weak you are. Many victims of abuse have endured cruelty and suffering beyond what others could handle, through sheer determination and commitment to their relationships. It's a dysfunctional commitment, but a commitment nonetheless.

Some of the stories I've read involve really independent men and women with developed careers and strong personalities, suddenly finding themselves in a dystopian environment and second guessing themselves, sequestered from all normal life. Narcissists and sociopaths are very skilled at getting people where they want them and they tend to deliberately target people of strong character so they can feed off of their strength. In the case of narcissists, they actually have very low self-esteem and need constant reassurance, and if the victim has high empathy then it's their compassion which will suck them into a very bad scene. They'll learn to not see themselves as a victim but rather someone experiencing the fallout of a wounded person that really needs help and care.

I also find it really weird that there are so few support groups for abusers themselves. It's all about the victims. Abusers really do have a problem and some want to get better, but there's no agency. The system is punitive toward them. They usually don't get the help they need until they're already facing a judge.
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I have been told that the local mental health has (had??) a program to help abusers. I don't know too much about it, nor do I know how well it works either. But I have been told that there was a group therapy session as well as other mental health help.
 
CycloneWanderer said:
Anyone working at a place dedicated to helping victims of domestic abuse who brushes you off or laughs at your inquiries is obviously not being educated properly about the psychological effects of domestic abuse as well as the statistics. Men are often the victims of domestic abuse, both physical and psychological; if I remember my statistics correctly, men are more often the victim than the abuser. The only reason people assume women are always the victims or that women can't be abusers is because sexism and the disparity between physical damage caused. I hope James is able to find the help and support he needs to get away from Will. You're a good man for doing what you can to help him.
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I'm perched ready for the call. I'm talking to James and encouraging him. I've seen a spark of defiance in him. I think he's heading up for a push back.
 
Given the blow-off the help line gave about him I'd be finding out who runs it and give them an earful for their operators not taking the situation seriously.
 
Northern Light said:
The whole "why doesn't the victim just leave?" thing is such a tired refrain and a product of nothing more than ignorance. There are many reasons why a person doesn't just up and leave.
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What 'fixes' these situations besides leaving? Do they change? Does counseling 'fix' the relationships?
 
Lursa said:
What 'fixes' these situations besides leaving? Do they change? Does counseling 'fix' the relationships?
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Counseling can fix it, as long as both people are willing and able to take an honest look at themselves and make changes. It requires mutual acknowledgment of responsibility.

Most times though the relationship is doomed. If its very foundation is based on co-dependency then that's really tough to break.

What I was trying to describe earlier is why the relationships are difficult to leave and to end. There are so many powerful illusions at work that it's really challenging to see the reality of what's happening.
 
Northern Light said:
Counseling can fix it, as long as both people are willing and able to take an honest look at themselves and make changes. It requires mutual acknowledgment of responsibility.

Most times though the relationship is doomed. If its very foundation is based on co-dependency then that's really tough to break.

What I was trying to describe earlier is why the relationships are difficult to leave and to end. There are so many powerful illusions at work that it's really challenging to see the reality of what's happening.
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Since there really is only one way to fix it, I'm sorry, *everyone* knows this now. I think, like you say, people might not realize it's 'them'....that it's only other people but they're different.

I dont have alot of sympathy....esp. when kids are involved. Leaving is the only answer and friends, family, community services need to make this crystal clear that *yes, it IS you. YOU need to leave.*
 
Lursa said:
Since there really is only one way to fix it, I'm sorry, *everyone* knows this now. I think, like you say, people might not realize it's 'them'....that it's only other people but they're different.

I dont have alot of sympathy....esp. when kids are involved. Leaving is the only answer and friends, family, community services need to make this crystal clear that *yes, it IS you. YOU need to leave.*
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Depends on the level of abuse, if the abuser can be helped, if there's physical danger vs. psychological.

I disagree with your assessment. It's complicated. If there were always one answer then we wouldn't have counselors, psychologists, and special services.
 
Northern Light said:
Depends on the level of abuse, if the abuser can be helped, if there's physical danger vs. psychological.

I disagree with your assessment. It's complicated. If there were always one answer then we wouldn't have counselors, psychologists, and special services.
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It is complicated. And hard. But the fact seems to be that there really is only one solution...leave. Hard or easy, simple or complicated, that's what it comes down to.

Like any dangerous addiction, it's nearly impossible for anyone else to change that person's behavior...they have to face it, admit it, and commit to the change themselves. And unfortunately it almost always seems to be when they reach bottom...in the cases of abuse, when they or their child is nearly killed.

But it is up to that person.
 
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