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Men with Working Uterus Transplants within Five Years?

Well, whooptie do. What you'd prefer has nothing to do with whether people should have certain medical options.

You cannot mandate trans people be legally obligated to metaphorically put a star on their uniform to protect you from squicky feelings. Their medical history is their business. Other people's bigotry is not their problem -- and indeed, their safety is a serious concern.

Is it really bigotry to want a born woman? Is it actually bigotry to want to know that someone is factually a man? Is it actually bigotry to not want to have children with another man when you are a straight man?

We all take risks being close to people. There's every chance a bio woman could just cheat on you with a similar-enough looking guy, and usually you'll have no idea -- 10 to 20% of children are not the blood child of the man who believes they are. Life and love involve risk. Get used to it.

I'm all fine with accepting normal risks, but ones that medical professionals create like this one is not one that I'm open to accepting.
 
Trans* people are not out to trick you. Get over yourself.

Except that they do trick people kind of regularly. They wouldn't be assaulted for it if it didn't happen. :prof
 
Are these surgeries so advanced that a sexual partner would not know the difference? Not notice that there had been surgical restructuring?

I mean, how well are some people getting to know the people they have sex with? If men and women just have casual sex now, they must pay the legal and biological consequences, each having different options.

If you are seriously considering a long-term relationship...exactly how well do you know this person? How much emotion are you investing in someone before actually 'getting to know them"?

To my understanding, yes.
 
Wow. A ****load of heterosexual people have been saying the exact opposite on behalf of gays these past couple of decades.....with visible results.

Except those gay people aren't trying to sleep with straight individuals and present themselves as the opposite sex. These gay people that are also trans are in fact trying to do that and therefore it is different.
 
We all take risks being close to people. There's every chance a bio woman could just cheat on you with a similar-enough looking guy, and usually you'll have no idea -- 10 to 20% of children are not the blood child of the man who believes they are. Life and love involve risk. Get used to it.

It should also be noted that certain kinds of sexual deception are illegal and there is no reason that I can see this wouldn't follow in line.
 
I think its sad that some advances in (potentially) women's healthcare turn up and then immediately some people imagine how to apply it to males. ?? Something is seriously wrong with that MO.

If I'm mistaken the genital surgery that is done was originally created for women. Saying that, a similar surgery was done on castrated men centuries ago. Some people in these debates claim they are in fact the same surgery, but the modern surgery is a different surgery then the one that was done back then.
 
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Is it really bigotry to want a born woman? Is it actually bigotry to want to know that someone is factually a man? Is it actually bigotry to not want to have children with another man when you are a straight man?

I'm all fine with accepting normal risks, but ones that medical professionals create like this one is not one that I'm open to accepting.

Whether it is or not, there is no legitimate reason to make something which can't possibly harm you a criminal offence.

You could wind up having sex with a woman with XY chromosomes who doesn't even know, due to an intersex condition. Life risks, dude.

As far as "sexual deception," no, not exactly. If you're referring to lying about having HIV, there are ways to contract that outside of sex, and it is illegal to deceive someone because it's deadly. If you're referring to paternity fraud, that's illegal because it can cost a man hundreds of thousands of dollars.

What happens if you have sex with a woman who's XY? Nothing.

Stuff happens. People lie. You don't have a right to send them to jail when there's no harm done simply because it gives you the squicks. Get over it.
 
Whether it is or not, there is no legitimate reason to make something which can't possibly harm you a criminal offence.

I would say it is a harm. :shrug: Being tricked into sleeping with a man is definitely a harm. I think there is actually a good amount of evidence to support the claim it causes mental harms at the very least.

You could wind up having sex with a woman with XY chromosomes who doesn't even know, due to an intersex condition. Life risks, dude.

Again, that is a risk of natural causes and outside of the control of the party in question. This is a case where the individual got treatment, knows the truth, and consciously decided to deceive another person.

As far as "sexual deception," no, not exactly. If you're referring to HIV, there are ways to contract that outside of sex, and it is illegal to deceive someone because it's deadly. If you're referring to paternity fraud, that's illegal because it can cost a man hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The point is that it is still sexual deception and this is of course sexual deception.

What happens if you have sex with a woman who's XY? Nothing.

Again, different thing.

Stuff happens. People lie. You don't have a right to send them to jail because it gives you the squicks. Get over it.

So a gay man that happens to have went through treatment to look and present themselves as a woman sleeping with a straight man that doesn't know is just a lie to you? Well, not to me.
 
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I would say it is a harm. :shrug: Being tricked into sleeping with a man is definitely a harm. I think there is actually a good amount of evidence to support the claim it causes mental harms at the very least.

Again, that is a risk of natural causes and outside of the control of the party in question. This is a case where the individual got treatment, knows the truth, and consciously decided to deceive another person.

The point is that it is still sexual deception and this is of course sexual deception.

Again, different thing.

So a gay man that happens to have went through treatment to look and present themselves as a woman sleeping with a straight man that doesn't know is just a lie to you? Well, not to me.

Not any more than any other lie with no tangible implications whatsoever. There are many lies which someone might justifiably be upset about, but being a liar is not illegal unless there is a tangible harm. There is no tangible harm here.

No, not a different thing, apart from the deception. Trans women are neurologically much like bio women. Sex is not simple -- it is not simply chromosomes. So for all intents and purposes, a trans woman is an XY woman as much as a woman with AIS is. And whether it's a deception or not, the fact remains that nothing whatsoever happens to you.

Whatever, it's a deception. But there is no logical reason why you should be able to send someone to jail for it. It's done nothing to you other than squick you out. Grow up. You don't get to send people to jail because you feel icky.
 
This is so messed up on so many levels. I'm with the OP. I want a born woman and I would rather not be tricked by what is factually a man to the point where I find myself having a child with one.
Beware than. No laws suould be created so people can feel secure picking up women at the bar. If you get tricked it's on you.
There has to come a point where medical professionals realize that their actions are going to affect more than the patient and having men present themselves as women to straight men is ethically wrong to take part in and even more ethically wrong to extend that to the point where they are literally having children.
You being grossed out isn't the line. be careful who you screw. If you are foolish enough to be fooled, I don't see how that is an ethical dilemma for a doctor. If somebody tricks you i don't see how that is an ethical dilemma for a doctor.

Straight men want women, and that means BORN women, and they would rather not stick their dick in an inverted dick and have children with another man.
seems important to get to know somebody before ****ing them.
I'm sorry, but transgendered men that are gay(and yes I reject the claim they are straight) are not women and we have to stop treating them as such.
You never had to.
Instead we should treat them like men and work through their issues without mutilating their bodies that could and often does lead to straight men being tricked.
Really? how often?
 
Beware than. No laws suould be created so people can feel secure picking up women at the bar. If you
get tricked it's on you.

Kind of a weird way to look at responsibility for the action. There is only so much you can do to ensure that you're not tricked, and in the end, the person doing the tricking is still the trans individual and they are responsible for it. It has been shown, like I said, to cause mental trauma and people have even gotten help for it. I suppose that is somewhat ******d for them to need help to deal with it, but it is true.

You being grossed out isn't the line. be careful who you screw. If you are foolish enough to be fooled, I don't see how that is an ethical dilemma for a doctor. If somebody tricks you i don't see how that is an ethical dilemma for a doctor.

Doctors know this kind of behaviors happen and they know that without their actions none of it would have been possible. It's not unreasonable to state they should avoid doing operations that can be done to trick people or leave people otherwise worse off. In the end, doctors and other sellers of goods have to consider not only the buyer/patient(which they are ethically failing by mutilating them) but other parties like future people they might harm as a result of the service they are offering.

seems important to get to know somebody before ****ing them. You never had to. Really? how often?

It's always been important, but again, you can only do so much to avoid it. People get married to these people without even knowing only to find out years later. How many years of their life was taken from them because of doctors and someone that lied to have a relationship with them? How many years were they tricked to live a lie?

Btw, we actually had a trans poster a few years back that admitted to being married to a guy that didn't know. Is that guy at fault for being tricked? Is that really your position?
 
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Really? how often?

Well, considering the amount of transsexuals that get assaulted for it, I would say it's safe to say it happens quite a bit. You also have to consider that there is probably far more that trick men into it, get found out, and yet never get assaulted than those that do.
 
Kind of a weird way to look at responsibility for the action. There is only so much you can do to ensure that you're not tricked, and in the end, the person doing the tricking is still the trans individual and they are responsible for it.
It really isn't that odd. It isn't the doctor's responsibility to make sure his patient doesn't trick someone. It is the person doing the tricking.

But I don't think this is a common occurrence. So I don't believe there is much risk of being tricked. That is even suggesting that most "trans women" are into straight men. All of them I have met prefer women, but the ones that like men aim for bi men. Further they are honest.

I'm curious to know what percentage of trans people are tricking straight men. I doubt it's occurred very often. The percentage of trans people is not even close to 1%, abd because they are just people like everybody else I assume when they are looking for love they are trying to find somebody to share their lives with, so honesty goes a long way. Plus most people want to be loved for who they are, not who somebody thinks they are.

I seriously doubt this trickery exists on any measurable scale. So this attempt to justify telling others how to live is a failed one.

It has been shown, like I said, to cause mental trauma and people have even gotten help for it. I suppose that is somewhat ******d for them to need help to deal with it, but it is true.
So?



Doctors know this kind of behaviors happen and they know that without their actions none of it would have been possible.
Car dealers know drunk driving to be possible behavior, they aren't guilty for the accident caused by their customers.
It's not unreasonable to state they should avoid doing operations that can be done to trick people or leave people otherwise worse off.
Well, that same argument can be made for gun control. Just switch a few words. I'll show you.

It's not unreasonable to state they should avoid selling guns that can be used to kill people or leave people otherwise worse off.

This is why I have no respect for you. You are a raging progressive when politically expedient.

In the end, doctors and other sellers of goods have to consider not only the buyer/patient(which they are ethically failing by mutilating them) but other parties like future people they might harm as a result of the service they are offering.
Sounds like something Barak Obama would say about guns, or his wife would say about fried chicken.



It's always been important, but again, you can only do so much to avoid it.
To avoid just randomly ****ing somebody you don't know? I must be a saint or a very special person, I've never had to avoid that.

People get married to these people without even knowing only to find out years later.
You have any names? Does it amount to a percentage of the population? Do you have any names? Has it really ever occurred?
How many years of their life was taken from them because of doctors and someone that lied to have a relationship with them? How many years were they tricked to live a lie?
Zero. Other than killing somebody I don't know how you can take years away from them. Further a doctor isn't responsible for the lies of his patient. It wouldn't be the doctor's fault for performing a hysterectomy on a woman before she was married and her husband found out she couldn't have kids. It would be completely hers for not saying anything.

I know you need something to justify this feeling you have about trans people and surgery, but this is not logical.

Btw, we actually had a trans poster a few years back that admitted to being married to a guy that didn't know.
One person, assuming they were telling the truth. How terrifying.

Is that guy at fault for being tricked? Is that really your position?
Assuming he is real, no. It is the trans person's fault for not saying so. It definitely isn't their doctor's fault. The doctor didn't lie.
 
It really isn't that odd. It isn't the doctor's responsibility to make sure his patient doesn't trick someone. It is the person doing the tricking.

If you know your service is likely to lead to people being victimized why would you want to provide the service? What possible good can come out of making people unable to identity the truth about someone? Doesn't that seem fundamentally wrong to you? Sure, sure, plastic surgery is many times about putting out lies, but this is not like breast implants or really any other surgery they provide, but literally them trying to sell men as women to the population at large. This isn't just about the patient thinking they are a woman, but the patient being able to make other people think they are woman. If they can't pass off as a woman the treatment won't be as effective, so it is imperative for the surgeon to make it as believable as possible. Everyday the patient goes out in the public the goal is that population is none the wiser and actually thinks and treats them as a woman. The doctor is putting all the power in the world in the hands of the patient to trick people into having sex with them, and if this additional surgery becomes common, to have children with them. Seriously, you don't think it is ethically wrong to do that?

But I don't think this is a common occurrence. So I don't believe there is much risk of being tricked. That is even suggesting that most "trans women" are into straight men. All of them I have met prefer women, but the ones that like men aim for bi men. Further they are honest.

I'm going by rants of "trans women"(I hate that term btw) about straight men not accepting them, forum posts and a pretty long thread on a trans forum giving trans women advice on how to attract straight men. There was more than enough admissions on that forum alone to tell me straight men are getting tricked into it on regular basis.

I'm curious to know what percentage of trans people are tricking straight men. I doubt it's occurred very often. The percentage of trans people is not even close to 1%, abd because they are just people like everybody else I assume when they are looking for love they are trying to find somebody to share their lives with, so honesty goes a long way. Plus most people want to be loved for who they are, not who somebody thinks they are.

If no one will accept you for who you are, what choices do you have? You can either do without or lie. Many people will lie instead of living a life alone.


So we are talking about doctors dealing with mental illness telling people to get a treatment that could lead to victims that suffer from mental illness. How is that not ****ed up? I suppose if finding yourself potential consumers is your goal with your treatment plans, it's a winner, but ethically speaking it's extremely suspect.

Car dealers know drunk driving to be possible behavior, they aren't guilty for the accident caused by their customers.

If they know someone will drive drunk, should they sell them a car? It's one thing to say, well something could happen, but when the chances are pretty good, is it not ethically bankrupt? It's like the guy that tells you he will shoot people, so you sell him some guns. It's ethically bull**** behavior. If the trans individual in question is gay then they are likely going to look for men, and since most men are straight by percentages, it makes sense to say many of them will sleep with straight men. Since most straight men don't accept them, well, you get the idea.

Well, that same argument can be made for gun control. Just switch a few words. I'll show you.

It's not unreasonable to state they should avoid selling guns that can be used to kill people or leave people otherwise worse off.

This is why I have no respect for you. You are a raging progressive when politically expedient.

Indeed. The argument makes sense under many different contexts.

Sounds like something Barak Obama would say about guns, or his wife would say about fried chicken.

He would be talking about laws though. I'm just talking about ethical behavior.
 
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]To avoid just randomly ****ing somebody you don't know? I must be a saint or a very special person, I've never had to avoid that.

Never happened to me either, but there are plenty of people in long married life with someone under completely false pretenses. Not too long ago gay men would marry straight women and never tell them they were gay. I actually know a old guy that said he was married for fifty years with a woman before he told her he was gay. That is fifty years of her life, children, grandchildren, effectively her entire adult life, that is built on a lie. There are plenty of things people lie about in relationships and the partner either never finds out or finds out about years later or even decades later. What she did was fall in love with a lie. A painting the man put up for her that was painted with nothing more than lies and bull****.

You have any names? Does it amount to a percentage of the population? Do you have any names? Has it really ever occurred? Zero. Other than killing somebody I don't know how you can take years away from them. Further a doctor isn't responsible for the lies of his patient. It wouldn't be the doctor's fault for performing a hysterectomy on a woman before she was married and her husband found out she couldn't have kids. It would be completely hers for not saying anything.

You don't think that someone tricking someone into a relationship and then being in that relationship for years is robbing them of their life? Hmmm..

One person, assuming they were telling the truth. How terrifying.

Assuming he is real, no. It is the trans person's fault for not saying so. It definitely isn't their doctor's fault. The doctor didn't lie.

According to the story it was pretty bad, imho. The poster admitted to not only lying to him about being a woman, but lying about the reason they couldn't have children. When someone is making up lies to cover up their other lies you know you're dealing with filth.
 
If you know your service is likely to lead to people being victimized why would you want to provide the service?
This one doesn't.

What possible good can come out of making people unable to identity the truth about someone? Doesn't that seem fundamentally wrong to you?
No, you can't know unless they tell you. I believe lying is wrong.
Sure, sure, plastic surgery is many times about putting out lies, but this is not like breast implants or really any other surgery they provide, but literally them trying to sell men as women to the population at large. This isn't just about the patient thinking they are a woman, but the patient being able to make other people think they are woman. If they can't pass off as a woman the treatment won't be as effective, so it is imperative for the surgeon to make it as believable as possible. Everyday the patient goes out in the public the goal is that population is none the wiser and actually thinks and treats them as a woman. The doctor is putting all the power in the world in the hands of the patient to trick people into having sex with them, and if this additional surgery becomes common, to have children with them. Seriously, you don't think it is ethically wrong to do that?
I must correct myself. This will absolutely happen to you, you are going to be tricked into sleeping with a trans woman. You should just never mate with any of them. In fact anybody with your opinions shouldn't ever mate with women. You might be tricked into sleeping with a trans person.



I'm going by rants of "trans women"(I hate that term btw) about straight men not accepting them, forum posts and a pretty long thread on a trans forum giving trans women advice on how to attract straight men. There was more than enough admissions on that forum alone to tell me straight men are getting tricked into it on regular basis.
Just good reasons for you to never be with any women. They could really be trans.



If no one will accept you for who you are, what choices do you have? You can either do without or lie. Many people will lie instead of living a life alone.
Celibacy is the only way.



So we are talking about doctors dealing with mental illness telling people to get a treatment that could lead to victims that suffer from mental illness. How is that not ****ed up? I suppose if finding yourself potential consumers is your goal with your treatment plans, it's a winner, but ethically speaking it's extremely suspect.
Don't trust any.



If they know someone will drive drunk, should they sell them a car?
How would they know that?
It's one thing to say, well something could happen, but when the chances are pretty good, is it not ethically bankrupt? It's like the guy that tells you he will shoot people, so you sell him some guns. It's ethically bull**** behavior. If the trans individual in question is gay then they are likely going to look for men, and since most men are straight by percentages, it makes sense to say many of them will sleep with straight men. Since most straight men don't accept them, well, you get the idea.
The salesman isn't responsible for the acts of others.



Indeed. The argument makes sense under many different contexts.
It never makes sense



He would be talking about laws though. I'm just talking about ethical behavior.
It's unethical to lie. But it isn't unethical to perform srs surgery.
 
Never happened to me either, but there are plenty of people in long married life with someone under completely false pretenses. Not too long ago gay men would marry straight women and never tell them they were gay. I actually know a old guy that said he was married for fifty years with a woman before he told her he was gay. That is fifty years of her life, children, grandchildren, effectively her entire adult life, that is built on a lie. There are plenty of things people lie about in relationships and the partner either never finds out or finds out about years later or even decades later. What she did was fall in love with a lie. A painting the man put up for her that was painted with nothing more than lies and bull****.
I believe it is unethical to lie.



You don't think that someone tricking someone into a relationship and then being in that relationship for years is robbing them of their life? Hmmm..
I believe it's wrong. But they lived a life.



According to the story it was pretty bad, imho. The poster admitted to not only lying to him about being a woman, but lying about the reason they couldn't have children. When someone is making up lies to cover up their other lies you know you're dealing with filth.

Broken record.

I believe lying is unethical. A doctor performing a surgery isn't a lie.
 
This one doesn't.

This one does all the time.

No, you can't know unless they tell you. I believe lying is wrong. I must correct myself. This will absolutely happen to you, you are going to be tricked into sleeping with a trans woman. You should just never mate with any of them. In fact anybody with your opinions shouldn't ever mate with women. You might be tricked into sleeping with a trans person.

To be fair most of the time you can tell, but that isn't the point. The whole point of the treatment is for them to pass off as women.


Just good reasons for you to never be with any women. They could really be trans.

They could be, yes. Not that high of a probability, but yes, it's possible.

Celibacy is the only way.

Do you think most people will go that path? Maybe my faith in humanity is somewhat lower than it should be, but I don't believe it. How many people restrain, really? Not that many. How many unplanned pregnancies happen every year? A **** ton. The idea trans people will be celibate is a fantasy.

Don't trust any.

I don't. The profession is built on bull****.


How would they know that? The salesman isn't responsible for the acts of others.

I don't know.

It never makes sense

I would of course disagree.

It's unethical to lie. But it isn't unethical to perform srs surgery.

Both are unethical. SRS just happens to be unethical for more reasons.
 
This one does all the time.
Bull****



To be fair most of the time you can tell, but that isn't the point. The whole point of the treatment is for them to pass off as women.
No it isn't.




They could be, yes. Not that high of a probability, but yes, it's possible.
You should just not mate with any woman. Don't take the chance.



Do you think most people will go that path?
Idiots perhaps, but good. They will be eliminated from the gene pool. That's called evolution.



I don't. The profession is built on bull****.
The profession of women is indeed, you shouldn't deal with any of them ever. Don't even talk to them.




I don't know.
So you have no rational reason to say that a salesman is responsible if a customer gets in a wreck? It's good you realize that.



I would of course disagree.
Have a cookie.



Both are unethical. SRS just happens to be unethical for more reasons.
Ars isn't unethical. You haven't stated how it violates ethics.
 

You're free to use google.

No it isn't.

Yes, it is. They have to feel like they are woman and confident they are seen as such for the treatment to be the most effective as possible. That means that they have to look like a woman and come off as a woman. If the treatment didn't go out of it's way to try to get them as close as possible we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Hell, if the goal wasn't to get them as close to looking and functioning like a woman as possible this idea of putting a uterus in them wouldn't even exist.


You should just not mate with any woman. Don't take the chance.

Sigh. Again, there is a chance, but it's noticeably small.

Idiots perhaps, but good. They will be eliminated from the gene pool. That's called evolution.

Deciding to not have sex has nothing to do with someones intelligence. Of all the causes of that behavior that is not one of them.

The profession of women is indeed, you shouldn't deal with any of them ever. Don't even talk to them.

Women are obviously not a profession and not what I was talking about. I'm talking about psychology, obviously.


So you have no rational reason to say that a salesman is responsible if a customer gets in a wreck? It's good you realize that.

I never said they were responsible and in fact even went out of my way to say they weren't. The whole time I was suggesting that buyers of goods have to think about how their products will be used as selling a good to a individual that you know will abuse it or use it against another person is playing a part in harm.

Have a cookie.

Thank you! You know though, one cookie and only one cookie is kind of mean. :(

Ars isn't unethical. You haven't stated how it violates ethics.

Really, the fact that I have to explain to you why cutting off a healthy set of testicles is unethical amazes me.
 
You're free to use google.
I did, Google supported the idea that what you was Bull****. Also I'm a human being and not living in mars and reality supports that what you suggest is Bull****.

It's just an attempt by you to say that things you don't like should be illegal. You can Bull**** some people you can Bull**** yourself. I don't care fur Bull****

Nothing else you posted masters because the heart of your post is little more than an attempt at psychological validation. I'm not going to give it to you.

If you are so scared of being tricked become celibate if not, take the risk. If you react like an uncivilized idiot you will get kicked up as you should.

There is nothing else left to say.
 
https://www.yahoo.com/health/surgery-could-give-men-wombs-1302360099545142.html


IMO this is going too far. Now I know that this is something that a transgendered male-to-female would wish for, and I sympathize. I have no problem with an individual making such a choice for themselves.

However, as a male I prefer the companionship of a biologically "original" female. I don't want to be "fooled" by a transgendered male-to-female who is so dedicated to their life-choice that they would lie about their origins in order to be accepted by a heterosexual male.

So if this type of operation becomes a norm, I think that some sort of law requiring a transgendered individual declare their history before involving a potential life-partner in such a relationship. I think that is only reasonable because a transplanted uterus contains eggs from a female unknown to the male partner, and the children are clearly NOT going to look anything like the transgendered "mother."

If it were me I would be shocked and angry.

Thoughts?
You wouldn't want a woman who understands you?
 
i can see this easily abused.

imagine, a man falsely accused of abusing his girlfriend given a sentence to be forced to undergo the surgery to transform him into a female and then forcing him to have this, well, installed.

Then have him raped to see what it feels like.

And then force him to carry the baby to term.


ugh.

There are many opportunities for abuse.

When ti ebcoems common. IF it becomes common.

I ahve no problem other than it being a disgusting thought to me if they want to choose this route.

on the other hand, maybe it could go a long way to ending gender based prejudism and bigotry and intolerance if we were all one gender.
Sounds like a pretty interesting movie, but that's all.
 
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