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Utah Judge orders child be taken from Lesbian Parents

Andalublue said:
Once taken into care they are no longer your children and it's not for you to decide whether your wishes are harmful or helpful. Children aren't property to be disposed of according to your whims.
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Ok seriously, what do you think the difference is between a parent deciding on who their children will be raised by and the state? Is their opinion in either case considered to any greater or lesser degree? Doesn't the state actually treat them as property when they give them out to strangers and provide them no say in the matter?

They are also still my children and will be my children for the rest of their life. Legal status or my death has no effect on that reality.
 
Henrin said:
Ok seriously, what do you think the difference is between a parent deciding on who their children will be raised by and the state?
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Here's the deal: if you are raising your kids then you decide how they are raised. If you cannot or will not do it, the state may have to step in and then the state gets to decide who will raise them and how. You lose your right to make those decisions. That's it.
 
Andalublue said:
Here's the deal: if you are raising your kids then you decide how they are raised. If you cannot or will not do it, the state may have to step in and then the state gets to decide who will raise them and how. You lose your right to make those decisions. That's it.
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And I'm saying if it through inability to raise them that I should maintain a say in the matter.
 
Henrin said:
And I'm saying if it through inability to raise them that I should maintain a say in the matter.
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Why? If you're incapable of looking after them then why isn't it reasonable to assume you are incapable of making the right decisions for them? The state isn't simply there to provide you with a free, full-time, baby-minding service. You want to take the decisions then you have to provide the care. I thought you libertarians were all meant to be about personal responsibility.

Remember, if you die, and you have dependants, and you have made no provision for those dependants to be taken care of, then you've already proved yourself to have been an irresponsible parent. Why should your wishes be honoured in such circumstances?
 
Andalublue said:
Why? If you're incapable of looking after them then why isn't it reasonable to assume you are incapable of making the right decisions for them? The state isn't simply there to provide you with a free, full-time, baby-minding service. You want to take the decisions then you have to provide the care. I thought you libertarians were all meant to be about personal responsibility.

Remember, if you die, and you have dependants, and you have made no provision for those dependants to be taken care of, then you've already proved yourself to have been an irresponsible parent. Why should your wishes be honoured in such circumstances?
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It would depend on the reason of course on why I was unable to take care of them, but if it was through physical disability there is no reason to not consider my opinion as I have not shown myself incapable of raising the children before that point and I still have the ability to make decisions on those grounds mentally.

Not making arrangements for your children if something were to happen to you has no bearing on your ability to raise your children, but shows that you didn't probably plan what would happen to your children if something happened to you.
 
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Henrin said:
And being raised by opposite sex couple is in their best interest and allows them to get male and female role model without leaving the home, which is of course a good thing. My opinion also should be considered since the state got them from my death/inability to parent, not through other means like abuse/neglect.
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You can't prove that an opposite sex couple raising them is in their best interest. And if you are unable to raise them because you were unexpectedly killed or die or you get sent to prison, then why should your opinion matter more than anyone else's? If the child's mother had a same Alex relationship after your death, then your opinion means diddly squat but they are still being raised by a same sex set of parents. Plus should I be able to mandate that only certain couples raise my children if my husband and I die (with presumably a lot of other family members considering how big my family is) even if that put the state with the burden of finding a couple that met our criteria no matter how complicated?
 
Henrin said:
It would depend on the reason of course on why I was unable to take care of them, but if it was through physical disability there is no reason to not consider my opinion as I have not shown myself incapable of raising the children before that point and I still have the ability to make decisions on those grounds mentally.

Not making arrangements for your children if something were to happen to you has no bearing on your ability to raise your children, but shows that you didn't probably plan what would happen to your children if something happened to you.
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There is no reason in this day and age that you should not be able to care for your children with almost any physical disability. It would also be even more irresponsible of you to not actually simply choose the person who you want to take care of them rather than forcing that decision onto the state but insisting on your personal qualifiers for the new parents.
 
Henrin said:
Well, I think my wishes should be considered since it would be my children they are dealing with. My wishes are also not harmful to the children and are just looking out for what I think is best for them.
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In this case the father has abandoned the child and mother and the mother has approved the adoption.

However, you already have the possibility to ensure your wishes are followed.

Do what we did. We drew up paperwork to deal with the care of our children if anything were to ever happen to my wife and I, say we were driving and there were an accident which claimed both our lives, in such a situation the children were to go to their God Parents who would adopt them. Our Estate would be liquidated into a Trust to provide that they wouldn't be a financial burden on their adoptive parents.

If you want your wishes followed, setup the structure to ensure it happens. If you don't take those steps and the children become a ward of the State, then you have taken no legal action to express those wishes.


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Henrin said:
And I'm saying if it through inability to raise them that I should maintain a say in the matter.
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If the state is stepping in, then you have shown that you are not able to make prior arrangements for the care of your children to begin with. Even if you are not dead.
 
Henrin said:
And being raised by opposite sex couple is in their best interest and allows them to get male and female role model without leaving the home, which is of course a good thing. My opinion also should be considered since the state got them from my death/inability to parent, not through other means like abuse/neglect.
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In this case the legal parent (biological mother) has approved the adoption so the Judge (initially) ignored her wishes and the father is not in the picture.


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Henrin said:
And I'm saying if it through inability to raise them that I should maintain a say in the matter.
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You can. There are private adoption services or you can arrange your own.


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roguenuke said:
You can't prove that an opposite sex couple raising them is in their best interest. And if you are unable to raise them because you were unexpectedly killed or die or you get sent to prison, then why should your opinion matter more than anyone else's? If the child's mother had a same Alex relationship after your death, then your opinion means diddly squat but they are still being raised by a same sex set of parents. Plus should I be able to mandate that only certain couples raise my children if my husband and I die (with presumably a lot of other family members considering how big my family is) even if that put the state with the burden of finding a couple that met our criteria no matter how complicated?
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If I was killed or otherwise died then my will should be followed as long as there is not some other circumstances that would show that I was an unfit parent. If I was sent to prison it would depend on what the reason for that happened to be, but if the situation did not involve minors, then again, there is no reason to expect that I shouldn't be considered in the process. Other family members outside of your spouse are irrelevant in the equation unless they are given such authority by the spouse. There is no reason that I can think of to consider the opinion of lets say your brother or lets say your spouses sister on what would happen to your children if your spouse is still alive.

I can also show that opposite sex relationships do offer a male and female role model for children, which IS an advantage they have over same sex couples.
 
roguenuke said:
If the state is stepping in, then you have shown that you are not able to make prior arrangements for the care of your children to begin with. Even if you are not dead.
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Again, that just shows a lack of planning, which could be entirely reasonable if the children are very young for example.
 
Henrin said:
And I disagree with that and don't consider the research you guys are relying on to be very convincing of anything.
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What research, a woman with a child can may another woman, that can happen, there isn't any need for research. You are not convinced that occurs? One woman would be the mother of the child the other would be the step mother.
 
CLAX1911 said:
What research, a woman with a child can may another woman, that can happen, there isn't any need for research. You are not convinced that occurs? One woman would be the mother of the child the other would be the step mother.
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If I recall correctly one such example of this research would be a study involving 350 same sex couples that considered themselves either gay or bisexual and concluded there is no remarkable differences between their children and straight couples children. I'm not overly convinced of much of anything by a study involving 350 couples nor do I see any good reason to believe that these people that did the research know much of anything about the qualify of parenting.
 
notquiteright said:
Ummm actually we have the Judge's opinion that there is scientific studies claiming hetero do a better job of raising kids. The scientific community is pushing back on that. His standard isn't objective but selective... :peace
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that's a slippery slope.

That leads way to one person targeting a family for removal of a child, for selfish resons, revenge, hatred, or so many other reasons.

"Better" is relative. An outright pathetic excuse.
 
Henrin said:
Well, I think my wishes should be considered since it would be my children they are dealing with. My wishes are also not harmful to the children and are just looking out for what I think is best for them.
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And the birth mother has sided with the lesbian couple and want them to adopt the child. Should her wishes be considered since it is her child that they are dealing with?
 
wolfsgirl said:
And the birth mother has sided with the lesbian couple and want them to adopt the child. Should her wishes be considered since it is her child that they are dealing with?
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Yes, I would say so.
 
Henrin said:
If I was killed or otherwise died then my will should be followed as long as there is not some other circumstances that would show that I was an unfit parent. If I was sent to prison it would depend on what the reason for that happened to be, but if the situation did not involve minors, then again, there is no reason to expect that I shouldn't be considered in the process. Other family members outside of your spouse are irrelevant in the equation unless they are given such authority by the spouse. There is no reason that I can think of to consider the opinion of lets say your brother or lets say your spouses sister on what would happen to your children if your spouse is still alive.

I can also show that opposite sex relationships do offer a male and female role model for children, which IS an advantage they have over same sex couples.
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If you care that much then find Godparents, otherwise your opinion, and that is all it is an OPINION, is irrelevant to what may be in the best interests of children.
 
CriticalThought said:
If you care that much then find Godparents, otherwise your opinion, and that is all it is an OPINION, is irrelevant to what may be in the best interests of children.
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Is my opinion on what is good for my children relevant now?
 
Henrin said:
If I recall correctly one such example of this research would be a study involving 350 same sex couples that considered themselves either gay or bisexual and concluded there is no remarkable differences between their children and straight couples children. I'm not overly convinced of much of anything by a study involving 350 couples nor do I see any good reason to believe that these people that did the research know much of anything about the qualify of parenting.
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Parenting studies typically measure outcomes. Generally speaking, if your kid went to Harvard and is a successful business owner, then you probably did a tad better job parenting than the parents of the kid who grew up to be a serial rapist who is currently serving time in prison.
 
Henrin said:
Is my opinion on what is good for my children relevant now?
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It depends on circumstances. If you are abusing or neglecting your children then hell no. Your opinion does not supercede their best interests.
 
CRModeration said:
Order to Take Baby From Lesbian Foster Parents Under Review

I'd like to know under what legal argument does the judge states to do this; this is downright ridiculous—especially when the Utah Division of Child and Family Services doesn't agree with the decision either.
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We've had fosters removed from our home simply because we're white. Welcome to the fold, gays, you're being dicked around just like everyone else. This is what you wanted.
 
Jerry said:
We've had fosters removed from our home simply because we're white. Welcome to the fold, gays, you're being dicked around just like everyone else. This is what you wanted.
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Whoa! Nope. In child welfare that is now called a disruption. They have been found to be traumatic to children. Nowadays that does not happen. If it has occurred to you recently then please PM me your state and the agency. Those types of things are taken very seriously. Not saying foster kids don't get jerked around by their birth parents, but not for something like that by ethical caseworkers.
 
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