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Contracts for dating are the only logical solution

SmokeAndMirrors said:
No, you don't. You can't make them do anything, dude. Nor should you be able to -- that's insane. Things happen. Get used to it. You don't have a date of Valentines Day. Big deal.
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I think the OP is looking for some type of 'performance contract', when RL don't work that way.

Even a 'marriage contract' doesn't guarantee performance IRL, but rather determines what happens when things fall apart!

There's no guarantees in relationships ...
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Well, too damn bad. You can't obligate someone to be around you based on some non-legal contract they might have signed years ago. People are free agents. If you don't get that, I honestly don't know what you're doing trying to be in a relationship.

Relationships involve risk. If you don't trust your partner to do what they say, why are you with them?
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Okay so you are saying we should totally commit to an intimate arrangement with a person we know nothing about off the bat, without any rules for what is cheating or what we expect from the relationship so there is no misunderstanding, not say if its an open/closed relationship so you dont know if they commit and trust this person you are dating without learning anything about them first? Why do you believe this makes any sort of sense?
 
MisterLogical said:
Okay so you are saying we should totally commit to an intimate arrangement with a person we know nothing about off the bat, without any rules for what is cheating or what we expect from the relationship so there is no misunderstanding, not say if its an open/closed relationship so you dont know if they commit and trust this person you are dating without learning anything about them first? Why do you believe this makes any sort of sense?
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No. That's why you date. To learn things and then decide if you want to get serious. And then you do this thing called talking to lay out what you want in the relationship.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
No. That's why you date. To learn things and then decide if you want to get serious. And then you do this thing called talking to lay out what you want in the relationship.
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So in other words you completely trust every person you meet and would trust them enough to be intimate with them and you think its wise for us all to do the same? I think a few people could find a few flaws with that idea... but Okay. I guess you believe that everyone is worth trusting since you never been hurt before. So the idea of someone being misleading would not cross your mind really.
 
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roguenuke said:
First, I want to say that I'm completely against this. We don't need contracts to control our dating lives. Grow up and talk it out. Seriously. It isn't that hard.

That being said, I have actually had a contract, as a joke, for a single date. The incident taught me to be very well aware of what printer your computer was printing to, particularly while on the ship. Printing to the Chiefs' office, when you can't get inside is very embarrassing when it is a contract for a date with a shipmate, which is then sent up the Chain of Command, to be signed and agreed to by your full chain, as well as theirs. An addendum was added that any changes to the contract had to be passed up to be approved by said chain. We did however get full approval to go on our date.

BTW, I'm 35 (today actually).
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Happy Birthday, RN! I hope it has been a good one.

Regarding the OP I'd like to add that relationship contracts are for the most part desired by controlling men who are or feel sexually inadequate, or maybe they just have real tiny todgers.
 
MisterLogical said:
So in other words you completely trust every person you meet and would trust them enough to be intimate with them and you think its wise for us all to do the same? I think a few people could find a few flaws with that idea... but Okay.
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What are you talking about?

It requires you to totally trust someone to go on a date and talk to them?

How do you ever manage to go outside, dude?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Well, too damn bad. You can't obligate someone to be around you based on some non-legal contract they might have signed years ago. People are free agents. If you don't get that, I honestly don't know what you're doing trying to be in a relationship.

Relationships involve risk. If you don't trust your partner to do what they say, why are you with them?
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Maybe the individuals i a relationship should decide that.

I'm married and don't - at all - mind living within the limits of my marriage. If I want to do something that might go outside those boundaries and cause upset I DO talk about it with my husband . . . because you can't pre-plan for everything.

But believing yourself you can just do whatever needs to be okay between BOTH people for it to actually stick. When one believes that type of thing and the other doesn't they're not going to see pure happiness between them.

I am monogamous - and so clearly I'm not going to want to ever be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want ot be monogamous. Simple, really.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
What are you talking about?

It requires you to totally trust someone to go on a date and talk to them?

How do you ever manage to go outside, dude?
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When I say dating I mean Kissing, hand holding, going on dates, Watching movies, Making out, coming out to friends as a couple. You know that type of stuff. I dont mean just having coffee once every week and saying "Hey you got pretty eyes" and not doing anything but talk. Maybe you did not get what I meant by DATING. That in this stage you can get in trouble for CHEATING. If you can get in trouble for CHEATING, why not discuss what is considered CHEATING?

Aunt Spiker said:
It was called arranged marriages, marriages for convenience. The modern concept of marrying for love is - well - only highly popularized in recent centuries - and in the far distant past it was simply less common.



While i get the sentiment (and agree that a serious issue is couples don't communicate about their boundaries and expectations) . . . I don't understand why getting to know each other didn't seem to ping on your radar, there. Marriages and relationships don't fail for things that can be addressed by the above list, really. Maybe it's just how you worded your into that made me wonder this - and it's not that you or others leave things to 'chance'.

If you're wanting a relationship then WHY are you randomly hooking up? (general you) - the two things don't mix.

But what I've seen that's gone missing is WORKING IT OUT. People seem to just randomly date and dump - and when things get rough there's this pervasive 'walk on' thing. In this day and age - suggesting that someone in a serious relationship actually try to work through their problems and come to a new understanding - one which perhaps involves compromise and open communication - turns you into a hydra. And some people really take themselves too ****ing seriously: "my feelings are hurt! I hate you!" and act on that alone.
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That is WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! People randomly hook up and dump and no one stays if they are not married in a contract they are just like "Eh this is too hard" and kind of just drop it. The Contract would be listing out the rules, the boundaries and what you are looking for and expect so there is no confusion, no issues and no false expectation and if people plan on dumping after a few months the other person wont be shocked or devastated since you lead them on believing that you truly cared about them like they cared about you but you were just screwing around. If you want to **** around well okay, just explain that! There is 1000s of other people who are simply SCREWING AROUND too, you dont need to lead on someone who is truly serious and dump them randomly since your like "Eh". There is a lot of people who end up confused and like "Why did they dump me" and they will just say "Oh since I felt like it and I wanted to find someone new to screw around with". Seriously if your just SCREWING AROUND you can simply say that couldn't YOU?
 
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Aunt Spiker said:
Maybe the individuals i a relationship should decide that.

I'm married and don't - at all - mind living within the limits of my marriage. If I want to do something that might go outside those boundaries and cause upset I DO talk about it with my husband . . . because you can't pre-plan for everything.

But believing yourself you can just do whatever needs to be okay between BOTH people for it to actually stick. When one believes that type of thing and the other doesn't they're not going to see pure happiness between them.

I am monogamous - and so clearly I'm not going to want to ever be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want ot be monogamous. Simple, really.
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I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that you can't force someone to do something, which seems to be the intent of this contract thing.

Yes, of course you can and should expect your partner to adhere to the agreements you set. But you can't force them to do things, nor should you be able to.
 
MisterLogical said:
When I say dating I mean Kissing, hand holding, going on dates, Watching movies, Making out, coming out to friends as a couple. You know that type of stuff. I dont mean just having coffee once every week and saying "Hey you got pretty eyes" and not doing anything but talk. Maybe you did not get what I meant by DATING. That in this stage you can get in trouble for CHEATING. If you can get in trouble for CHEATING, why not discuss what is considered CHEATING?
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Well, there is no reason you have to be physically intimate with someone you're just getting to know. Plenty of people don't. You choose to do those things.

If you have not agreed to be exclusive, it is not cheating. It is perfectly normal for people to date a couple people at the same time and then decide to be in a relationship with one, or neither. Dating is for getting to know people.

If you don't like that, use your words.
 
MisterLogical said:
Yes you do, that is the purpose of explaining everything in writing that you expect.

This is the rules for what counts as cheating
I am casually dating/Serious dating
I dont want you to date other people while you are dating me
I am considering date you but unsure yet
I dont want to have sex till marriage, I hope your okay with that
This is a open/Closed relationship
These are the holidays I want a partner for
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So, who enforces the contract? What happens when one party brakes the written rules anyway? What penalties follow?
 
DDD said:
So, who enforces the contract? What happens when one party brakes the written rules anyway? What penalties follow?
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How do couples usually handle stuff when someone cheats on them? Same thing for the other rules.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Well, there is no reason you have to be physically intimate with someone you're just getting to know. Plenty of people don't. You choose to do those things.

If you have not agreed to be exclusive, it is not cheating. It is perfectly normal for people to date a couple people at the same time and then decide to be in a relationship with one, or neither. Dating is for getting to know people.

If you don't like that, use your words.
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No the issue is people become exclusive and like "I want to date you" and than they randomly leave out of the blue for no reason and the other person is just like "Why? What did I do? Did I mess up" and the only thing they get is the other person like "I want to try on a new hat". Like if you were going to drop them that simple, why cant you just explain that. That or they do something that is considered cheating and the other person doesn't realize its cheating and they get into a fight about it, since you know they were just suppose to KNOW! Like the strip club debate. Is going to a strip club cheating? Well it depends but most couples would assume ITS CHEATING but you know since no one sets up the rules of what to expect its just kind of guess work. Why do you think its better to be guess work?
 
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MisterLogical said:
No the issue is people become exclusive and like "I want to date you" and than they randomly leave out of the blue for no reason and the other person is just like "Why? What did I do? Did I mess up" and the only thing they get is the other person like "I want to try on a new hat". Like if you were going to drop them that simple, why cant you just explain that.
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I dunno. Because some people suck.

That's why dating exists -- so you can weed out the people who suck before you get into a serious relationship with them.

Making a woman you just met sign an unenforceable, ridiculously possessive contract will not make them suck less. If anything, it will simply scare off all the sane ones.
 
MisterLogical said:
How do couples usually handle stuff when someone cheats on them? Same thing for the other rules.
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This is a debate kid, we get these kinda dodges constantly,

1) Who enforces the contract? Which third party would be obliged with such a task?

2) Are you a dude or a dudette?
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
I dunno. Because some people suck.

That's why dating exists -- so you can weed out the people who suck before you get into a serious relationship with them.

Making a woman you just met sign an unenforceable, ridiculously possessive contract will not make them suck less. If anything, it will simply scare off all the sane ones.
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Nailed it.

I can't stop thinking about Sheldons Roommate Agreement :lol:
 
DDD said:
No, Chomsky, just a regular non-native-English speaker here, improvising when ignorant of the correct word.
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Then fear not - 'dudette' was never accepted English, either! ;)
 
DDD said:
This is a debate kid, we get these kinda dodges constantly,

1) Who enforces the contract? Which third party would be obliged with such a task?

2) Are you a dude or a dudette?
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My Gender/Sex does not matter. I have fixed and counseled several on failed relationships and have seen enough players to know the signs for it as well as being a wingman to a few as well. So I know what things tend to be an issue and its the fact that most of the time no one communicates what they are expecting or want from a relationship. So the point of the contract is to list EXACTLY what you want from the relationship, what you see it as, if its open/closed, what is considered cheating.

I have seen people break up/Arguments since one of the parties cheated but the party did not understand it counted as cheating
One was expecting sex after a amount of time/and the other did not want sex after that time
One saw it as a simple fling/One was head over heels and took it very serious and was devastated over the break
Often(I dont know why) people break up BEFORE or After Holidays and that is generally when everyone wants a partner
When sex came one was into kinky sex/The other was vanilla(Which does eventually make it fall apart in a lot of cases)
One wanted an open relationship hoping the other would come around/The other one never came around

This stuff is kind of important for the success in a relationship and its like no one ever pays attention to any of this stuff till its too late. Than someone gets hurt.

The events contract can be enforced by each offering something of equal benefit which they get from the other and they wont get if they break the contract
For the cheating either they can choose to break up, take a break, or work through it and explain what they expect from now on(Any Penalty can be made by the couple) Like if they want to say no sex for a week, or whatever they see fit

So there is a lot of problems that happen just because people dont really state what they want from this. Its kind of like going to the store and there is nothing but boxes and they have different prices and the boxes have different designs on them. So you ask "Whats in the box" and you say "Well youll see when you buy it". So you randomly pick a box but you have no idea what your getting but you pay for it anyways and hope you get something good. Why are relationships suppose to be this WAY? I dont understand it? Why dont you want to know whats in the box?

Why is it bad to ask what your buying? Why do we just have to buy a random box without knowing whats inside but still have to pay money for it? I think I should know what I am paying for.
 
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MisterLogical said:
My Gender/Sex does not matter.
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But we got curious recently.

MisterLogical said:
I have fixed and counseled several on failed relationships and have seen enough players to know the signs for it as well as being a wingman to a few as well. So I know what things tend to be an issue and its the fact that most of the time no one communicates what they are expecting or want from a relationship. So the point of the contract is to list EXACTLY what you want from the relationship, what you see it as, if its open/closed, what is considered cheating.
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I understand.

MisterLogical said:
I have seen people break up/Arguments since one of the parties cheated but the party did not understand it counted as cheating
One was expecting sex after a amount of time/and the other did not want sex after that time
One saw it as a simple fling/One was head over heels and took it very serious and was devastated over the break
Often(I dont know why) people break up BEFORE or After Holidays and that is generally when everyone wants a partner
When sex came one was into kinky sex/The other was vanilla(Which does eventually make it fall apart in a lot of cases)
One wanted an open relationship hoping the other would come around/The other one never came around

This stuff is kind of important for the success in a relationship and its like no one ever pays attention to any of this stuff till its too late. Than someone gets hurt.
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Pretty clear,

In order to avoid getting hurt from miscommunication a written format is proposed. But why a written contract versus a conversation to get these things off one's chest?

Contracts are legally binding:

1.
an agreement between two or more parties for the doing or not doing of something specified.
2.
an agreement enforceable by law.
3.
the written form of such an agreement.
4.
the division of law dealing with contracts.
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Contract | Define Contract at Dictionary.com

MisterLogical said:
1) The events contract can be enforced by each offering something of equal benefit which they get from the other and they wont get if they break the contract

2) For the cheating either they can choose to break up, take a break, or work through it and explain what they expect from now on(Any Penalty can be made by the couple) Like if they want to say no sex for a week, or whatever they see fit
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Elaborate please,

1) What could they be offering that is then withdrawn if the rules in the contract are broken? Love? Or some other tangible thing that would then guarantee that people remain in the contract? How about money?

2) No sex for a week hurts both parties!

MisterLogical said:
So there is a lot of problems that happen just because people dont really state what they want from this. Its kind of like going to the store and there is nothing but boxes and they have different prices and the boxes have different designs on them. So you ask "Whats in the box" and you say "Well youll see when you buy it". So you randomly pick a box but you have no idea what your getting but you pay for it anyways and hope you get something good. Why are relationships suppose to be this WAY? I dont understand it? Why dont you want to know whats in the box?
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Versus,

Creating a legal contract that tells you exactly what to expect inside the box, with penalties should one be unpleasantly surprised that it did not turned out to be as the producer of the boxes promised to be like. It does objectifies the relationship a bit.

But what is wrong with opening the box, looking what is inside, and closing it if one does not likes it, even if it happens to be done during the weekend or celebrations like Valentine's day then?

The issue seems to be structure and security in relationships. So the contract is offered as a solution.

It is not unheard of. Couples in ME countries take these kind of vows and get temporarily engaged. They sign contracts and the government then enforces the arrangement.

But I am against 3rd parties being involved in the intimacies of people's relationships. I also suggest you seek comfort (or help) with trusted people.
 
DDD said:
But we got curious recently.



I understand.



Pretty clear,

In order to avoid getting hurt from miscommunication a written format is proposed. But why a written contract versus a conversation to get these things off one's chest?

Contracts are legally binding:



Contract | Define Contract at Dictionary.com



Elaborate please,

1) What could they be offering that is then withdrawn if the rules in the contract are broken? Love? Or some other tangible thing that would then guarantee that people remain in the contract? How about money?

2) No sex for a week hurts both parties!



Versus,

Creating a legal contract that tells you exactly what to expect inside the box, with penalties should one be unpleasantly surprised that it did not turned out to be as the producer of the boxes promised to be like. It does objectifies the relationship a bit.

But what is wrong with opening the box, looking what is inside, and closing it if one does not likes it, even if it happens to be done during the weekend or celebrations like Valentine's day then?

The issue seems to be structure and security in relationships. So the contract is offered as a solution.

It is not unheard of. Couples in ME countries take these kind of vows and get temporarily engaged. They sign contracts and the government then enforces the arrangement.

But I am against 3rd parties being involved in the intimacies of people's relationships. I also suggest you seek comfort (or help) with trusted people.
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Looking in the box and not wanting whats inside is like trying to return the box and demanding a refund. If you want to simply do a test run for a month and dont know if your serious or not than why cant you ask to rent the box and explain this to the seller? That way they are not hurt if you decide you dont want the box after all? Also I probably should not have used the term contract, I kind of meant a contract as a list of guidelines for what the relationship is going to be. Which is something most relationships dont have. (Also I stunned you got my box metaphor. Most of the time people dont understand what I am saying when I use metaphors to describe things)

As for my gender I chose not to disclose it since I did not want to be prejudged based on being either Male or Female since people tend to respond different when they know a persons gender in my experience. Like "Well you dont understand anything about that subject you are a woman, or you dont understand anything about that since your not a man butt out". So when I have a chance to get away with not disclosing it I usually dont but people tend to assume male most of the time.

Also I know of Sheldon, and I know of his contract but this would be no were as extensive. It would mainly agree on events you want to do together, if its open/closed relationship, whats considered cheating. Basically everything I listed above which seems to be the most crucial details which I think should be gone over.

The other person can read the rules and say if they feel comfortable proceeding or not proceeding with the relationship, if they want to change anything and in turn give you their own set of rules.
 
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MisterLogical said:
Looking in the box and not wanting whats inside is like trying to return the box and demanding a refund. If you want to simply do a test run for a month and dont know if your serious or not than why cant you ask to rent the box and explain this to the seller? That way they are not hurt if you decide you dont want the box after all? Also I probably should not have used the term contract, I kind of meant a contract as a list of guidelines for what the relationship is going to be. Which is something most relationships dont have.
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I think you are in a good track with "written guidelines" rather than "contracts."

Some people communicate best in written format rather than spoken or non-verbal format. Perhaps by doing so you may attract the right kind of person for you anyway.
 
roguenuke said:
First, I want to say that I'm completely against this. We don't need contracts to control our dating lives. Grow up and talk it out. Seriously. It isn't that hard. That being said, I have actually had a contract, as a joke, for a single date. The incident taught me to be very well aware of what printer your computer was printing to, particularly while on the ship. Printing to the Chiefs' office, when you can't get inside is very embarrassing when it is a contract for a date with a shipmate, which is then sent up the Chain of Command, to be signed and agreed to by your full chain, as well as theirs. An addendum was added that any changes to the contract had to be passed up to be approved by said chain. We did however get full approval to go on our date. BTW, I'm 35 (today actually).
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Okay, I think the OP's idea is of course absurd, well... until I consider it from the perspective of dating within one's job environment, then maybe it's a good idea to set a few ground rules, perhaps via contract, to assure the employment security and dignity therein. It's different I think than many first dates in that the two involved do know somewhat of and about each other, so it's not altogether comparable to a regular first date with a relative stranger. In the latter, a contract or even making any solid decisions on a first date would be foolish. For the former, not an altogether bad idea.
 
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