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Is this Proof That Sexual Orientation is a Choice?

Goshin said:
Probably more like "Celebrates and encourages it to the point of societal blessing and a "coolness factor". JMO.
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Not how I'd describe the current situation in the US, that's for sure.
 
Deuce said:
Not how I'd describe the current situation in the US, that's for sure.
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Oh, I dunno. About half, maybe more than half when you're talking the younger set, kind of glorify LGBT. There's a lot of teen/20s gals who refer to themselves as "Bi" without any real evidence they are, apparently because of the coolness factor. Then there are LUGs...
 
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Deuce said:
Ironic coming from the sort of person who wants to suppress their rights.
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Their rights should not be suppressed, nor should those of the people who think it's "sinful" or an abomination.
 
Deuce said:
Correction: more people admit to being bisexual.
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Could be. But, I suspect more people are willing to play in the park now than when it was super taboo.
 
Summerwind said:
From the very beginning I've said that sexual preference may well indeed be a choice, which changes absolutely nothing. We live in a country where choices that do not harm anyone else should be legal and legit. /conversation
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What country do you live in? (rethorical) Immoral and unethical choices even those that dont harm anyone have always been on the wrong side of the law. So claiming that they should be legal is in no way precedented or in the spirit of the country.
 
Long story short, the Sociocultural Left's not going to be happy until we're basically living in a society with sexual values reminiscent of some ridiculous post-Keynesian reboot of ancient Greece. As they take more and more control over popular culture, that's exactly how we see behavioral norms shifting.

It's nothing more than a lot of pointlessly self-indulgent nonsense. We will ultimately wind up paying for it in one way or another.
 
Crovax said:
What country do you live in? (rethorical) Immoral and unethical choices even those that dont harm anyone have always been on the wrong side of the law. So claiming that they should be legal is in no way precedented or in the spirit of the country.
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Hence the word should. Comprehension is your friend.
 
Summerwind said:
Hence the word should. Comprehension is your friend.
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I got that but you gave no reason why it should be other than, its America. Which is why I pointed out that is not a vaild reason for your "should"
 
Goshin said:
Oh, I dunno. About half, maybe more than half when you're talking the younger set. There's a lot of teen/20s gals who refer to themselves as "Bi" without any real evidence they are, apparently because of the coolness factor. Then there are LUGs...
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Talk with a lot of teenage girls, do you?
 
Gathomas88 said:
Long story short, the Sociocultural Left's not going to be happy until we're basically living in a society with sexual values reminiscent of some ridiculous post-Keynesian reboot of ancient Greece. As they take more and more control over popular culture, that's exactly how we see behavioral norms shifting.

It's nothing more than a lot of pointlessly self-indulgent nonsense. We will ultimately wind up paying for it in one way or another.
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Interesting. While i do seethat the self indulgent people among us have become worse. But generally speaking the newer generation doesn't seem as bad as it once was.

Ithink the structure ofthis gender does thatfalling apart bothers you. It does some people.
 
Maybe it is not a question of "Yes, it is a choice" or "No, it is not a choice."

For some...it may not be a choice at all. For some...same sex partners may be the only thing that causes the desire for sex.

For some...it may be a choice. For some...same sex and opposite sex partners may be the thing that causes the desire for sex. And they choose.

Perhaps?
 
Frank Apisa said:
Maybe it is not a question of "Yes, it is a choice" or "No, it is not a choice."

For some...it may not be a choice at all. For some...same sex partners may be the only thing that causes the desire for sex.

For some...it may be a choice. For some...same sex and opposite sex partners may be the thing that causes the desire for sex. And they choose.

Perhaps?
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Wellthat only really describeds bisexuality.I'dsay bisexuality isn't a choice.
 
calamity said:
Hmmm, as more and more people take on the title of "sexually fluid," does it not enforce the argument that orientation is indeed a choice? I may agree.
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Now that is really scientific. Cool ;)
 
CLAX1911 said:
Wellthat only really describeds bisexuality.I'dsay bisexuality isn't a choice.
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Do you have statistics or genetic evidence?
 
calamity said:
Hmmm, as more and more people take on the title of "sexually fluid," does it not enforce the argument that orientation is indeed a choice? I may agree.
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Does it mean that they are choosing to be sexually fluid, or does it mean that they are feeling confident enough to say, "This is how I actually am"?
 
maquiscat said:
Does it mean that they are choosing to be sexually fluid, or does it mean that they are feeling confident enough to say, "This is how I actually am"?
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I interpret it as we would probably almost all be "sexually fluid" were it not for the social conditioning which pushes us in a different direction.
 
Gardener said:
Step 1 -- Calamity chooses homosexuality for a while to test his hypothesis.

Step 2 -- he goes out and engages in homosexual relations with a few different partners to get the hang of it.

Step 3 -- he reports back to the forum on the results of his research.
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This.
 
calamity said:
I interpret it as we would probably almost all be "sexually fluid" were it not for the social conditioning which pushes us in a different direction.
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What we know of extant hunter gatherer societies would seem to disprove that notion. Most don't even understand homosexuality or bisexuality as concepts, let alone practice them on any kind of regularized basis.

If anything, I think the "social conditioning" these days is probably going in the opposite direction. People are being made aware of, and even - in some cases - being pressured into, forms of "experimentation" which they wouldn't have ever considered under normal circumstances. That is having an impact, homo sapiens being the impressionable little primates that they are.

This has been occurring in young women for some time now (i.e. sexual pressure from men to be 'functionally bisexual' so that they can live up to some 'lipstick lesbian' fantasy largely fostered by pornography), so they're showing the greatest response. However, it looks like some inroads are starting to be made with "beta male" young men now as well.

Yeesh...
 
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Gathomas88 said:
What we know of extant hunter gatherer societies would seem to disprove that notion. Most don't even understand homosexuality or bisexuality as a concept, let alone practice it on any kind of regularized basis.

If anything, I think the "social conditioning" these days is probably going in the opposite direction. People are being made aware of, and even - in some cases - being pressured into, forms of "experimentation" which they wouldn't have ever considered under normal circumstances. That is having an impact, humans being the impressionable little primates they are.

This has been occurring most strongly in young women for some time now (i.e. sexual pressure from men to be 'functionally bisexual' so that they can live up to some 'lipstick lesbian' fantasy largely fostered by pornography), so they're showing the greatest response. However, it looks like some inroads are starting to be made with "beta male" young men now as well.

Yeesh.
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My understanding is that Sparta, for example, had a high level of male-male relations. It could very well be because this was expected of young Spartans. I do not know enough of primitive cultures to draw any conclusions, however.
 
calamity said:
My understanding is that Sparta, for example, had a high level of male-male relations. It could very well be because this was expected of young Spartans. I do not know enough of primitive cultures to draw any conclusions, however.
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Spartan young men basically lived and were raised in all male environments from the age of six well until their late teens or twenties. As I believe I mentioned in the Duggar thread (lol), the propensity for things to get a bit "weird" in those kinds of isolated environments is pretty high. They were also pretty blatantly encouraged to experiment with one another and older men in order to build a sense of "brotherhood."

Heterosexual marriage was supposedly such a shock to young Spartan men that the custom was that they would only "visit" their wives in complete darkness, and that their wives would dress and cut their hair just like men when they did so, for the first couple of years of marriage so that the men could be eased into the transition.
 
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Gathomas88 said:
What we know of extant hunter gatherer societies would seem to disprove that notion. Most don't even understand homosexuality or bisexuality as concepts, let alone practice them on any kind of regularized basis.
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I think you might be in error with this statement. Simply Googling "homosexuality in tribal culture" provided me with all sorts of links to information about tribal cultures around the world who recognized and accepted homosexual members within their tribes.

This includes, but is not limited to:

Native American "Two-Spirit" individuals, with only the Comanche and most clans of the Apache NOT recognizing this class of person; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

The Etoro People of New Guinea; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etoro_people

A link to 21 varieties of traditional African homosexuality; 21 varieties of traditional African homosexuality | 76 CRIMES

The list of links goes on for page after page concerning all sorts of cultures from Europe to Asia and around the world. Same sex individuals appear, accepted or not. I believe if you Google or Bing any specific ancient cultural group you will be more likely than not to find references to homosexuality in their cultures.

Now the rest of your post is personal speculation and opinion, and everyone is entitled to that. But claiming an analysis of tribal cultures will show a majority were unaware of or lack understanding of homosexuality is simply untrue.
 
Captain Adverse said:
I think you might be in error with this statement. Simply Googling "homosexuality in tribal culture" provided me with all sorts of links to information about tribal cultures around the world who recognized and accepted homosexual members within their tribes.

This includes, but is not limited to:

Native American "Two-Spirit" individuals, with only the Comanche and most clans of the Apache NOT recognizing this class of person; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

The Etoro People of New Guinea; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etoro_people

A link to 21 varieties of traditional African homosexuality; 21 varieties of traditional African homosexuality | 76 CRIMES

The list of links goes on for page after page concerning all sorts of cultures from Europe to Asia and around the world. Same sex individuals appear, accepted or not. I believe if you Google or Bing any specific ancient cultural group you will be more likely than not to find references to homosexuality in their cultures.

Now the rest of your post is personal speculation and opinion, and everyone is entitled to that. But claiming an analysis of tribal cultures will show a majority were unaware of or lack understanding of homosexuality is simply untrue.
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I'll have to look around for some better sources a little later (I'm on my phone at moment, which is hardly ideal for research). However, even from glancing over what you've posted, some issues are apparent.

The New Guinea tribe basically practiced ritualized homosexual acts (i.e. all men being required to ingest semen from the age of 7 to 17 in order to satisfy religious belief that the fluid contained 'life essence'), not true "homosexuality" as an orientation. Likewise, I think basically all of the African tribes you mentioned were agricultural societies - as I believe the Native American tribe you referenced was as well - not "hunter gatherers."

Speaking in terms of anthropology, there's a pretty significant difference there. Some researchers, for example, have even gone so far as to suggest that homosexuality may be more common in agricultural societies due to the effects of all the excess hormones present in grown grains which would have been absent in the original, Hunter gatherer, human diet.
 
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I can imagine that someone who has never felt any homosexual urges and does not feel them at the moment might consent, whether from intoxication, on a dare, or for some other reason, to engage in a homosexual act with a person who had a clear sexual desire for them. The person who had the desire might get sexual gratification from the act, but it's possible the person who went along with it would get none at all.

The physical movements, by themselves, are not enough for most people--that's what gives rise to the old saying that the most important sex organ is the brain. Unless you are already feeling some sexual desire toward a person--have had some sort of erotic thoughts about them pass through your mind, even if it's just imagining kissing them--any sexual contact you choose to have with them is probably not going to be gratifying. They just don't do it for you and never will, no matter what act you engage in--or try to engage in--with them.

That's where the discussion about choosing sexual orientation gets confusing for me. It seems to me that if the first experience was pleasant enough to make a person want to have it again, it was only pleasant because some sexual desire toward the person already existed before the action started. That's why I don't think a truly heterosexual person could choose to have a homosexual experience just because everyone was saying it was the thing to do, and still get sexual gratification from it. And if they didn't find it arousing, doing it again would just be a waste of time.

I think if a person is repeatedly engaging in sex with people of both sexes, they must feel sexual desire for people of both sexes. That is about as difficult for me, as a heterosexual, to get my head around as quantum theory, but the facts seem to show there are people who, at least at some times in their lives, lust after certain people of both the opposite sex and their own. And apparently the desire is strong enough that they often have orgasms with both types.
 
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