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The Right to Religion and belief

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tosca1

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SCOTUS had spoken regarding SSM.


Does this mean forcing everyone to accept it and participate in its celebration....even against someone's religious belief?
 
tosca1 said:
SCOTUS had spoken regarding SSM.


Does this mean forcing everyone to accept it and participate in its celebration....even against someone's religious belief?
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What are you even talking about? It requires it to be accept legally. As long as it doesn't violate anyone's rights, it does not require anyone to accept it personally, It certainly doesn't require anyone to participate in celebrating it.
 
tosca1 said:
SCOTUS had spoken regarding SSM.


Does this mean forcing everyone to accept it and participate in its celebration....even against someone's religious belief?
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I just checked and the sun looks like it's coming out. I have been wondering what they're going to talk about in the sex and sexuality forum now.
 
it's just me said:
I just checked and the sun looks like it's coming out. I have been wondering what they're going to talk about in the sex and sexuality forum now.
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I was actually thinking we might have to shut down this sub-forum, now. :lol:
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
What are you even talking about? It requires it to be accept legally. As long as it doesn't violate anyone's rights, it does not require anyone to accept it personally, It certainly doesn't require anyone to participate in celebrating it.
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Do Christian bakers - or other establishments - who refuse to cater citing Religious belief, be forced to do so?

That's still a bone of contention, if I'm not mistaken. Has there been any SCOTUS ruling on that?
 
If there isn't any SCOTUS ruling about this, this is one ground we have to fight for!

Otherwise, it'll be another right that'll be taken away.
 
tosca1 said:
Do Christian bakers - or other establishments - who refuse to cater citing Religious belief, be forced to do so?

That's still a bone of contention, if I'm not mistaken. Has there been any SCOTUS ruling on that?
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I think it depends on the situation.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I think it depends on the situation.
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I'd like to see that settled in court.

Tribunals shouldn't be the ones deciding - I don't know if you've got them in the US.
 
tosca1 said:
Do Christian bakers - or other establishments - who refuse to cater citing Religious belief, be forced to do so?

That's still a bone of contention, if I'm not mistaken. Has there been any SCOTUS ruling on that?
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It varies state-to-state, based on that state's individual public accomidation laws. Please check your local law for details.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I think it depends on the situation.
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What kind of situation?

I think that a person should be able to freely express his reason for refusing:

Nothing personal....but it's against my religion!


If we have to prevaricate with reasons for refusing, in fear of retaliation - like lawsuits etc., - then, that's also a blight to free expression, isn't it?

Two rights are at stake here!
 
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tosca1 said:
If there isn't any SCOTUS ruling about this, this is one ground we have to fight for!

Otherwise, it'll be another right that'll be taken away.
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OR...and, now, I'm just spitballing here...perhaps people who feel that their religious beliefs are more important than providing goods or services in exchange for compensation shouldn't open a business in a state which would require them to not discriminate.

"Oh, my state would make me serve some icky gay person? Well, I think I'll just not open a business then, since I think that selling cupcakes to a lesbian for their bridal shower means that I am doing more than just exchanging a good for money. I also don't understand how business works."
 
Koros said:
It varies state-to-state, based on that state's individual public accomidation laws. Please check your local law for details.
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It would be good if someone brings this all the way to SCOTUS to be settled once and for all.

I bet, this will be one big headache.
 
tosca1 said:
What kind of situation?

I think that a person should be able to freely express his reason for refusing:

Nothing personal....but it's against my religion!


If we have to prevaricate with reasons for refusing, in fear of retaliation - like lawsuits etc., - then, that's also a blight to free expression, isn't it?

Two rights are at stake here!
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No, not really. If you don't like serving people who don't line up 100% with your mythology's viewpoints, then don't open a business. Seems obvious to me.

OH, and "nothing personal?" HA! Yeah, that's the biggest lie in this whole debate. "It's not personal, it's just my personal belief about you and your morality." Not personal my butt.
 
tosca1 said:
What kind of situation?

I think that a person should be able to freely express his reason for refusing:

Nothing personal....but it's against my religion!


If we have to prevaricate with reasons for refusing, in fear of retaliation - like lawsuits etc., - then, that's also a blight to free expression, isn't it?

Two rights are at stake here!
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Your religion is irrelevant when it comes to the law in certain contexts. But tell you what. Post an example of a business being forced to do something against their religion and we can discuss the situation. Personally, my belief would be that it would violate the 1st Amendment, but public accommodation laws would have to be looked at, also.
 
Koros said:
OR...and, now, I'm just spitballing here...perhaps people who feel that their religious beliefs are more important than providing goods or services in exchange for compensation shouldn't open a business in a state which would require them to not discriminate.
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That means there's no freedom of religion if a person can't practice it without having to be penalized for it in some way - in that case you'd given,
it would be choosing between having a livelihood or practicing your belief!

If you're unfortunate enough to live in a state that doesn't allow you to practice your religion, you're basically ran out of town!
That's descrimination, too! You're prevented to earn a living if you don't throw away your doctrinal belief!
You're being descriminated for your religious belief!


That's like putting a gun to someone's head, forcing them to go against their spiritual belief!


That's the thing, isn't it? That's why it has to be settled once and for all!
 
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tosca1 said:
That ,eans there is no freedom of religion is a person can't practice it without having to be penalized for it in some way - in that case you'd given, it would be choosing between having a livelihood or practicing your belief!

That's the thing, isn't it? That's why it has to be settled once and for all!
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So, you're saying that the only way to "have a livlihood" as a religious person is to open your own business? Really? That's the argument you're going to go with?

And, sorry, but on what planet does selling cupcakes to a lesbian bridal shower mean that you are violating your religion? Now, I can't speak for Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, or the like...but, I was raised Catholic. I have read the bible. I remember Jesus preaching about loving thy neighbor as thyself. I remember tales of what happens to those who gamble in houses of worship. I remember "I am the Lord, thy God, thou shalt not have any other gods before me." But, try as I might, I do not remember "If thouh sellest pastries to homos, thou art surely a homo thyself."
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Your religion is irrelevant when it comes to the law in certain contexts. But tell you what. Post an example of a business being forced to do something against their religion and we can discuss the situation. Personally, my belief would be that it would violate the 1st Amendment, but public accommodation laws would have to be looked at, also.
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So, no SCOTUS ruling on this yet?
 
Koros said:
So, you're saying that the only way to "have a livlihood" as a religious person is to open your own business? Really? That's the argument you're going to go with?
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If someone wants to own his own business - he should have every right to do so. You're saying he doesn't have that right if he doesn't throw away his religion?




And, sorry, but on what planet does selling cupcakes to a lesbian bridal shower mean that you are violating your religion? Now, I can't speak for Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, or the like...but, I was raised Catholic. I have read the bible. I remember Jesus preaching about loving thy neighbor as thyself. I remember tales of what happens to those who gamble in houses of worship. I remember "I am the Lo
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Irrelevant!

As long as the person isn't committing a crime in practicing his religion - he should have the right to practice his belief, like you or non-religious people!
He shouldn't have to need anyone's approval as to how they think his belief ought to be interpreted. :roll:
 
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Kal'Stang said:
Nah, all the anti-ssm will still be here harping about it and disregarding SCOTUS's ruling. Otherwise we wouldn't have an abortion forum. ;)
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Yeah, true.
 
A business doesn't have a religion, (unless it IS a religion) The people working in or for the business choose to do so, and if they can't find it in themselves to treat customers equally, then they need to find other employment.
 
tosca1 said:
If someone wants to own his own business - he should have every right to do so. You're saying he doesn't have that right if he doesn't throw away his religion?
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Nice attempt at a straw man.

But, anyway...no, I am not saying that. I am saying that if opening a business would violate your religion (and, sorry, but selling cupcakes to a lesbian does not do that), then maybe you should think about whether you feel that your desire to own a business is more important than your religion, or vice versa.

And, I'm curious...show me where, in your religion's teachings, it prohibits operating a business which serves those who you have a personal beef against. Because, sad to say, "it's not personal" is a smokescreen to hide bigotry. Where, please, does your religion prohibit a baker from selling a cake, in exchange for money, to a same-sex couple for their wedding?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
So, no example yet?
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What's the point of the examples?
We read papers - they're basically the same situations with slight variations? They depend on what state they happen, too, I suppose.

That's the thing I'm talking about that should also be settled by SCOTUS! Just like SSM!

Settle it once and for all!
 
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