Transabled - Becoming disabled by choice, not chance. Same as being Transgender?

Ok, not gonna lie, I heard about this on Rush today and I went looking for a an online article where it wasn't all spun one way or the other. This is the best one I could find.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies

There does seem to be some parallels to the reasons people seek SRS. People feeling in their minds that they were meant to be born into a different body and really (and I ask sincerely), are we in any position to say they're wrong? Should surgeons remove body parts so a persons physical exterior matches what they feel they are?

Sometimes I ask questions and there's an intent presumed in my question, like I'm really condemning something. I ask out of sincere curiosity because I find all this really interesting and it think this could be good discussion.

answer: no

/thread

Hmmmm, interesting. Is that just the way we're supposed to see it? Don't question or explore any of it? The right response is the, no doubt, more popular one and that's explanation enough?

If this thread really is functionally ended and that's the extent of the discussion, that's fine, that would be an answer unto itself.

X Factor said:

Ok, not gonna lie, I heard about this on Rush today and I went looking for a an online article where it wasn't all spun one way or the other. This is the best one I could find.

Becoming disabled by choice, not chance: ‘Transabled’ people feel like impostors in their fully working bodies

There does seem to be some parallels to the reasons people seek SRS. People feeling in their minds that they were meant to be born into a different body and really (and I ask sincerely), are we in any position to say they're wrong? Should surgeons remove body parts so a persons physical exterior matches what they feel they are?

Sometimes I ask questions and there's an intent presumed in my question, like I'm really condemning something. I ask out of sincere curiosity because I find all this really interesting and it think this could be good discussion.

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X Factor said:

Ok, not gonna lie, I heard about this on Rush today and I went looking for a an online article where it wasn't all spun one way or the other. This is the best one I could find.

Becoming disabled by choice, not chance: ‘Transabled’ people feel like impostors in their fully working bodies

There does seem to be some parallels to the reasons people seek SRS. People feeling in their minds that they were meant to be born into a different body and really (and I ask sincerely), are we in any position to say they're wrong? Should surgeons remove body parts so a persons physical exterior matches what they feel they are?

Sometimes I ask questions and there's an intent presumed in my question, like I'm really condemning something. I ask out of sincere curiosity because I find all this really interesting and it think this could be good discussion.

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I don't give a **** about these people. All I know is that every ****ing they do is going to be out of THEIR goddamn pocket.

X Factor said:

Ok, not gonna lie, I heard about this on Rush today and I went looking for a an online article where it wasn't all spun one way or the other. This is the best one I could find.

Becoming disabled by choice, not chance: ‘Transabled’ people feel like impostors in their fully working bodies

There does seem to be some parallels to the reasons people seek SRS. People feeling in their minds that they were meant to be born into a different body and really (and I ask sincerely), are we in any position to say they're wrong? Should surgeons remove body parts so a persons physical exterior matches what they feel they are?

Sometimes I ask questions and there's an intent presumed in my question, like I'm really condemning something. I ask out of sincere curiosity because I find all this really interesting and it think this could be good discussion.

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Just my humble opinion but if you've got an outie and think you should have an innie that's more a mental problem than a physical one. Maybe it's something that can be sorted out by the head shrinkers and maybe it's just plain broken but I really don't see gender reassignment as being a fix.

Luftwaffe said:

I don't give a **** about these people. All I know is that every ****ing they do is going to be out of THEIR goddamn pocket.

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Thanks, Tiger. :mrgreen:

Actually, looking more closely at the link, it seem like this notion of being tolerant of "body diversity" is gaining some traction, and for consistency sake, maybe it should.

Luftwaffe said:

I don't give a **** about these people. All I know is that every ****ing they do is going to be out of THEIR goddamn pocket.

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I hate to tell you that some insurance covers the sex change process.....upwards of $100,000. Goldman Sachs' insurance provides it, but caps the coverage at $75k, I read.

X Factor said:

Ok, not gonna lie, I heard about this on Rush today and I went looking for a an online article where it wasn't all spun one way or the other. This is the best one I could find.

Becoming disabled by choice, not chance: ‘Transabled’ people feel like impostors in their fully working bodies

There does seem to be some parallels to the reasons people seek SRS. People feeling in their minds that they were meant to be born into a different body and really (and I ask sincerely), are we in any position to say they're wrong? Should surgeons remove body parts so a persons physical exterior matches what they feel they are?

Sometimes I ask questions and there's an intent presumed in my question, like I'm really condemning something. I ask out of sincere curiosity because I find all this really interesting and it think this could be good discussion.

Click to expand...

No. I think it's clear that if you THINK you should be something else, then something has gone wrong with your thinking part, your brain. Rather than seeking to alter totally the outside (which can't be done, anyway).

To me, it's no different than if I think I am really a bird. So I get a doctor to do some surgery, find some doctors to support my decision, and voila I'm a bird. While everyone ignores that I'm not really a bird. They circle around and support my delusion.

And if you don't think I could find doctors to give me surgery to have wings or a beak, think again. There are doctors who will do anything for the large fees that come from surgery. Example: Michael Jackson, whose nose eventually fell off from so many surgeries; his doctor who just about killed him by giving him that drug repeatedly, in return for a large monthly fee.

X Factor said:

Ok, not gonna lie, I heard about this on Rush today and I went looking for a an online article where it wasn't all spun one way or the other. This is the best one I could find.

Becoming disabled by choice, not chance: ‘Transabled’ people feel like impostors in their fully working bodies

There does seem to be some parallels to the reasons people seek SRS. People feeling in their minds that they were meant to be born into a different body and really (and I ask sincerely), are we in any position to say they're wrong? Should surgeons remove body parts so a persons physical exterior matches what they feel they are?

Sometimes I ask questions and there's an intent presumed in my question, like I'm really condemning something. I ask out of sincere curiosity because I find all this really interesting and it think this could be good discussion.

Click to expand...

I am not a psychiatrist(thank god, they are even lower than lawyers, but without the sense of humor), nor do I play one on TV, so this is based not on information but on conjecture and supposition. Take it for what it is worth(less than 2 ¢).

While I think there are some parallels between "transabled" and transsexuals, I think the article makes more of it than is really there. Or at the very least, really there yet. There has been a large amount of study done on the issue of transsexuality(or whatever it is being called today), with best treatment options being fairly well agreed upon. Transabled, not so much. Further, some one who undergoes SRS is still a fully functional person in almost every way(having a child I think would be the only way they are not functional for the most part, though again I am no expert), which is significantly different than a person minus a limb for example. How such people should be treated is way way way over my head. The best I could do if I knew one would be to be supportive of them as a person and make sure they talk to their shrink before doing anything.

A lot of trans people would opt to alter their brain anatomy so that they don't desire to change gender in the first place, or to break down highly rigid gender norms so that they aren't so outside those norms

But that isn't possible, so they opt for surgery

There's all kinds of body altering surgery, some of it condoned and encouraged by society, some of it highly stigmatized - breast implants, circumcision, pedophiles choosing castration, lyposuction, face lifts. On the scale of necessity, i would argue SRS is up there compared to many others. Look at the suicide rate for transgender, and it's obvious that how they feel is genuine. No one kills themself if not for a serious long-term problem.

I know nothing of "transabled," in fact this is the first time i heard of this phenomenon. It seems like the inverse of phantom limb syndrome. But again i have to ask, why would anyone make themself disabled, unless convinced it would help? It seems to me they might regret permanent disability...But again i come back to the scenario faced by transgender: If medicine or society can't alleviate the problem, then berating them with "NO!" will only make it worse.

If we're saying they should be committed (this was very common for transgender just a few decades ago) because they're a harm to self, that's going down a path i don't care for, when we don't even have reliable treatment for them

X Factor said:

Hmmmm, interesting. Is that just the way we're supposed to see it? Don't question or explore any of it? The right response is the, no doubt, more popular one and that's explanation enough?

If this thread really is functionally ended and that's the extent of the discussion, that's fine, that would be an answer unto itself.

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i find it fascinating enough i'll look into it more, but i wonder if limbaugh did this to make transgender rights seem a slippery slope into really fringe mental illness being accepted. If so, kind of reminds me of "gay rights will lead to pedo marriage and bestiality"

It's difficult for many to accept that someone would voluntarily amputate themselves. Just as the involuntarily disabled in that article find what they're doing offensive, some posters will find your analogy offensive to transgender

but i'm reserving judgement till i learn more

JumpinJack said:

No. I think it's clear that if you THINK you should be something else, then something has gone wrong with your thinking part, your brain. Rather than seeking to alter totally the outside (which can't be done, anyway).

To me, it's no different than if I think I am really a bird. So I get a doctor to do some surgery, find some doctors to support my decision, and voila I'm a bird. While everyone ignores that I'm not really a bird. They circle around and support my delusion.

And if you don't think I could find doctors to give me surgery to have wings or a beak, think again. There are doctors who will do anything for the large fees that come from surgery. Example: Michael Jackson, whose nose eventually fell off from so many surgeries; his doctor who just about killed him by giving him that drug repeatedly, in return for a large monthly fee.

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But your criticisms offer nothing in the way of fixing the "delusion" so what use are they? Come on, SRS and amputation for these "transabled" are likely a last ditch to find relief. The terminally and chronically ill have to just live with (for however long they have) their condition, *because* there is no such option

Honestly going up to someone transgender and being all "your brain is ****ed" is totally counterproductive.

And thinking we're a bird is deranged, pfft, tell it to the wright brothers

X Factor said:

Ok, not gonna lie, I heard about this on Rush today and I went looking for a an online article where it wasn't all spun one way or the other. This is the best one I could find.

Becoming disabled by choice, not chance: ‘Transabled’ people feel like impostors in their fully working bodies

There does seem to be some parallels to the reasons people seek SRS. People feeling in their minds that they were meant to be born into a different body and really (and I ask sincerely), are we in any position to say they're wrong? Should surgeons remove body parts so a persons physical exterior matches what they feel they are?

Sometimes I ask questions and there's an intent presumed in my question, like I'm really condemning something. I ask out of sincere curiosity because I find all this really interesting and it think this could be good discussion.

Click to expand...

Both yes and no.

Before I get into this, I think we have to establish exactly what it is that makes something "disordered" in a psychiatric sense. There's a couple criteria.

1. Causing harm to the self or others.
2. Leads to loss of life functionality (emotionally, or perhaps physically).

That's the broad definition, basically.

Now, I have heard of this disorder before -- where people feel they should not have certain body parts. It is a very serious disorder which leads to such great distress that some people kill themselves over it. As of right now, we have no way of treating it... except the remove the offending body part. Yes, this has been done at times. And yes, it does relieve the mental distress.

On a surface level, this sounds similar to being trans. And in many ways, it is. They both meet criteria #2, when untreated. There is one particular way in which it is rather different, and that is criteria#1: causing harm to the self or others.

You can argue trans people harm themselves through surgery, but I would debate that. The surgery leaves them a fully functional human being, and if we were going to count trans surgery as self-harming, we would also have to count reconstructive surgery the same way. Are you willing to say that to some disfigured vets and breast cancer survivors? Didn't think so...

Surgery for the transabled, however, leaves behind a less functional human being in a very clear and objective sense.

And how do I feel about it? Well, I'd rather these people not feel compelled to commit suicide, or die attempting to perform self-surgery. Every effort should be made to save their bodies, but since I know there is no effective psychological treatment for this disorder, surgery should be left on the table in order to prevent them from killing themselves either intentionally or accidentally.

I don't believe this should be accepted as a normal and healthy drive. However, I also don't think maligning them is helpful at all.

JumpinJack said:

I hate to tell you that some insurance covers the sex change process.....upwards of $100,000. Goldman Sachs' insurance provides it, but caps the coverage at $75k, I read.

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Oh if insurance wants to pay it then that's up to them. I could care less.

No, not the same. Not at all, and if you genuinely wanted to look into the science and psychology behing transgender individuals, you'd know that this is not the same.

JumpinJack said:

I hate to tell you that some insurance covers the sex change process.....upwards of $100,000. Goldman Sachs' insurance provides it, but caps the coverage at $75k, I read.

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I don't think that poster owns an insurance firm so it's not out of his pocket.

Changing your sex means you can still function as a perfectly normal human being. Crippling yourself is limiting that ability. So no it shouldn't be viewed the same.

Your Star said:

No, not the same. Not at all, and if you genuinely wanted to look into the science and psychology behing transgender individuals, you'd know that this is not the same.

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So you've looked into the science and psychology of the 'transabled' i take it

We know about hormones in the womb and ambiguous genitalia contributing to transgender, but how do you know there isn't some mechanism behind what these others experience?

CLAX1911 said:

Changing your sex means you can still function as a perfectly normal human being. Crippling yourself is limiting that ability. So no it shouldn't be viewed the same.

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I agree, that's a very valid distinction (one that both Redress and S&M touched on as well). Despite what some might say (jokingly and sometimes seriously), there is no impairment in being one gender or the other, unlike here where the intent is to make oneself disabled. I do think some of the arguments for how transgender people are supposed to be treated socially and medically could also apply to this "transabled community" (which is probably all of about a dozen people), but I've always said that details do matter.

The really cynical side of me could see this "transabled" thing as being a way to get disability benefits. Extreme? Yes, but you never know.

Incidentally, I also completely agree with what you said earlier about why Rush even mentioned this on his show. It was a way to draw parallels and if the the only place I could find mention of it was on right wing sites, I wouldn't have started this thread. I used the link I did because it seemed sympathetic to the "disorder" (am I allowed to use that word? Lol.)

I think it's interesting because it seems like, right now, we're not ready to say that amputating parts or blinding people at their request, etc., for whatever reasons is the way this should be treated but I think the concept is so new, that we really don't know where we'll end up on it. Perhaps it all will be considered just acceptable body modification after some time. Either that or this will be so rare that it'll always be considered fringe and, well, kooky.

Redress said:

I am not a psychiatrist(thank god, they are even lower than lawyers, but without the sense of humor), nor do I play one on TV, so this is based not on information but on conjecture and supposition. Take it for what it is worth(less than 2 ¢).

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First, what's your beef with psychiatrists? Not heard that one before, outside the cult of $cientology.

While I think there are some parallels between "transabled" and transsexuals, I think the article makes more of it than is really there. Or at the very least, really there yet. There has been a large amount of study done on the issue of transsexuality(or whatever it is being called today), with best treatment options being fairly well agreed upon. Transabled, not so much. Further, some one who undergoes SRS is still a fully functional person in almost every way(having a child I think would be the only way they are not functional for the most part, though again I am no expert), which is significantly different than a person minus a limb for example. How such people should be treated is way way way over my head. The best I could do if I knew one would be to be supportive of them as a person and make sure they talk to their shrink before doing anything.

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And, what you are talking about...what this whole thread is about...is Body Dysmorphic Disorder. The "Transabled" thing is just a play on "transgender" or "transsexual" (I believe the latter of those two, however, has fallen out of vogue..though, I don't get why.)

Body Dysmorphic Disorder, or BDD, has actually been very heavily studied.

Body dysmorphic disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Koros said:

First, what's your beef with psychiatrists? Not heard that one before, outside the cult of $cientology.




And, what you are talking about...what this whole thread is about...is Body Dysmorphic Disorder. The "Transabled" thing is just a play on "transgender" or "transsexual" (I believe the latter of those two, however, has fallen out of vogue..though, I don't get why.)

Body Dysmorphic Disorder, or BDD, has actually been very heavily studied.

Body dysmorphic disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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And as a libertarian, what's your take on this?

X Factor said:

And as a libertarian, what's your take on this?

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My take is simple...it's not my body, not my place to tell them what they can and cannot do with it. If you can find a doctor willing to provide a surgery in exchange for compensation, and neither of you are coerced or unduly influenced, then have it. Let the doctor chop of your leg. I don't care. Let the doctor remove your penis. I don't care about that either. Your body, your call. Just don't force others to pay for it, validate it, or accept it unless they want to.


(Of course, I don't mean you, personally...just generally speaking)

Koros said:

My take is simple...it's not my body, not my place to tell them what they can and cannot do with it. If you can find a doctor willing to provide a surgery in exchange for compensation, and neither of you are coerced or unduly influenced, then have it. Let the doctor chop of your leg. I don't care. Let the doctor remove your penis. I don't care about that either. Your body, your call. Just don't force others to pay for it, validate it, or accept it unless they want to.


(Of course, I don't mean you, personally...just generally speaking)

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No worries. I understood and I'd be hard pressed to come up with a good argument against what you said.

X Factor said:

No worries. I understood and I'd be hard pressed to come up with a good argument against what you said.

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Thank you. And I think that is where my issues lie. I don't care what others do with their body, but I will be damned if I'll be browbeaten in to validating their decision.