Hell froze over

CriticalThought · Apr 17, 2015

"But let us somehow against all odds find a way to love each other as we are, and not how each of us would wish the other to be."

-Maggie Gallagher

Read more at: National Review

Former President of the National Organization for Marriage, Maggie Gallagher, said something I agree with for a once. I never thought I would live to see the day.

The rest of the article is also interesting. It lays out why some Christians may not attend a same-sex ceremony.

Goshin · Apr 17, 2015

CriticalThought said:
"But let us somehow against all odds find a way to love each other as we are, and not how each of us would wish the other to be."

-Maggie Gallagher

Read more at: National Review

Former President of the National Organization for Marriage, Maggie Gallagher, said something I agree with for a once. I never thought I would live to see the day.

The rest of the article is also interesting. It lays out why some Christians may not attend a same-sex ceremony.

She explained it very well, and kudos to you for "getting it".

tres borrachos · Apr 17, 2015

CriticalThought said:
"But let us somehow against all odds find a way to love each other as we are, and not how each of us would wish the other to be."

-Maggie Gallagher

Read more at: National Review

Former President of the National Organization for Marriage, Maggie Gallagher, said something I agree with for a once. I never thought I would live to see the day.

The rest of the article is also interesting. It lays out why some Christians may not attend a same-sex ceremony.

Wow, that was an amazing piece, CT. Thank you for sharing it. It made me understand a bit better the thought process. Very interesting insight into Rubio, too.

joG · Apr 17, 2015

CriticalThought said:
"But let us somehow against all odds find a way to love each other as we are, and not how each of us would wish the other to be."

-Maggie Gallagher

Read more at: National Review

Former President of the National Organization for Marriage, Maggie Gallagher, said something I agree with for a once. I never thought I would live to see the day.

The rest of the article is also interesting. It lays out why some Christians may not attend a same-sex ceremony.

That was a rather good article.

Paschendale · Apr 17, 2015

If someone said to me what she says to her "friend" in that article, the only possible response is that she should go **** herself. No one can respect part of you. No one can accept part of you and still be your friend. She doesn't "love them and keep them in her life." Half-love is not love. It's BS. If your belief is that some part of another person is broken or inferior, then you don't deserve to have them as a friend. Just because she wraps incredible disrespect in pretty words doesn't make it anything but bile.

LowDown · Apr 17, 2015

Paschendale said:
If someone said to me what she says to her "friend" in that article, the only possible response is that she should go **** herself. No one can respect part of you. No one can accept part of you and still be your friend. She doesn't "love them and keep them in her life." Half-love is not love. It's BS. If your belief is that some part of another person is broken or inferior, then you don't deserve to have them as a friend. Just because she wraps incredible disrespect in pretty words doesn't make it anything but bile.

Aw, man, don't bottle up the hate. Let it flow. Let you inner PoS out, man.

Then there are those no one would ever call a friend, who could never be disrespected because there's nothing to respect.

Skeptic Bob · Apr 17, 2015

By the reasoning in that article if I don't approve of the woman my son is marrying then I shouldn't attend the wedding. I don't see me ever being that cold and heartless.

Goshin · Apr 17, 2015

Paschendale said:
If someone said to me what she says to her "friend" in that article, the only possible response is that she should go **** herself. No one can respect part of you. No one can accept part of you and still be your friend. She doesn't "love them and keep them in her life." Half-love is not love. It's BS. If your belief is that some part of another person is broken or inferior, then you don't deserve to have them as a friend. Just because she wraps incredible disrespect in pretty words doesn't make it anything but bile.

Thrilla · Apr 17, 2015

Paschendale said:
If someone said to me what she says to her "friend" in that article, the only possible response is that she should go **** herself. No one can respect part of you. No one can accept part of you and still be your friend. She doesn't "love them and keep them in her life." Half-love is not love. It's BS. If your belief is that some part of another person is broken or inferior, then you don't deserve to have them as a friend. Just because she wraps incredible disrespect in pretty words doesn't make it anything but bile.

yeah, your idea is pretty much the opposite of how human relationships operate in reality...

Quag · Apr 17, 2015

If there’s somebody that I love that’s in my life, I don’t necessarily have to agree with their decisions or the decisions they’ve made to continue to love them and participate in important events

Read more at: National Review

Rubio is the one showing true Christian values not Maggie Gallagher

CriticalThought · Apr 17, 2015

Paschendale said:
If someone said to me what she says to her "friend" in that article, the only possible response is that she should go **** herself. No one can respect part of you. No one can accept part of you and still be your friend. She doesn't "love them and keep them in her life." Half-love is not love. It's BS. If your belief is that some part of another person is broken or inferior, then you don't deserve to have them as a friend. Just because she wraps incredible disrespect in pretty words doesn't make it anything but bile.

I have friends who are racist. I do not love their racism.

I have friends who are sexist. I do not love their sexism.

I have friends who are elitists. I do not love their elitism.

I have friends who are not exactly as I want them. I love them because I am not perfect either.

Arcana XV · Apr 17, 2015

Her reasoning makes no sense to me at all. How does she expect to keep the gay couple in her life? If she won't attend their wedding, I'm assuming she won't go to their house either to attend their dinner parties, bbq's or whatever. And I'm pretty sure she won't invite the couple to her place either. Or meet the kids if they have or adopt any. What kind of relationship does she expect to have with these people? I really don't think she's thought this through at all.

Goshin · Apr 17, 2015

Arcana XV said:
Her reasoning makes no sense to me at all. How does she expect to keep the gay couple in her life? If she won't attend their wedding, I'm assuming she won't go to their house either to attend their dinner parties, bbq's or whatever. And I'm pretty sure she won't invite the couple to her place either. Or meet the kids if they have or adopt any. What kind of relationship does she expect to have with these people? I really don't think she's thought this through at all.

Hi Arcana! :2wave: Long time no see.

If her religious views are like mine (and they seem similar), I would feel obligated not to participate in the ceremony, as that would be a semi-official "endorsing" of the union, which would put me in a most dubious position religiously speaking.

However, going to someone's house to visit or bbq or hang out would not be the same sort of "seeming endorsement", and wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

If it is, I guess I'm in trouble since I've been in my lesbian's friends house and went with a group including her and her S.O. to Carowinds one time...

:lamo

Arcana XV · Apr 17, 2015

Goshin said:
Hi Arcana! :2wave: Long time no see.

If her religious views are like mine (and they seem similar), I would feel obligated not to participate in the ceremony, as that would be a semi-official "endorsing" of the union, which would put me in a most dubious position religiously speaking.

However, going to someone's house to visit or bbq or hang out would not be the same sort of "seeming endorsement", and wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

If it is, I guess I'm in trouble since I've been in my lesbian's friends house and went with a group including her and her S.O. to Carowinds one time... :lamo

Hiya Goshin

I guess I don't understand the difference. I mean, most likely the couple would not wed in a church seeing as most religions reject gay marriage. So it would be a secular wedding, i.e not a "real" wedding in the eyes of a religious person. Also, socialising with a married gay couple is kind of "endorsing" their union. In my view it's even more of an endorsement than merely attending the wedding ceremony.

roguenuke · Apr 17, 2015

Arcana XV said:
Hiya Goshin

I guess I don't understand the difference. I mean, most likely the couple would not wed in a church seeing as most religions reject gay marriage. So it would be a secular wedding, i.e not a "real" wedding in the eyes of a religious person. Also, socialising with a married gay couple is kind of "endorsing" their union. In my view it's even more of an endorsement than merely attending the wedding ceremony.

This is how I see it too. If they say "let's do couples' night", can you truly do that without "endorsing" those decisions? Are you going to accept their children, if they adopt, use a surrogate, have children otherwise, without judgment? How can you truly do that without accepting their marriage, their relationship?

And it is bull what she says about "condemning a loved one to go against God". That is an excuse. There is no other way to put it. You can change all the words she said, replacing them with interracial or interfaith couples, and would people not be against such a view? And I notice she doesn't mention that she treats others she views as sinful and committing their life against God in that way. I don't see how she could even attend a wedding of another faith either or of those who cannot have children with each other.

This is trying to treat someone like a child or at least condescendingly. It is saying "you are wrong in how you live your life and I can't do certain things with you because of that, but I'll still be your friend, I'll still love you". It is insulting. And it makes people in real life feel very small and rejected.

Your Star · Apr 17, 2015

Paschendale said:
If someone said to me what she says to her "friend" in that article, the only possible response is that she should go **** herself. No one can respect part of you. No one can accept part of you and still be your friend. She doesn't "love them and keep them in her life." Half-love is not love. It's BS. If your belief is that some part of another person is broken or inferior, then you don't deserve to have them as a friend. Just because she wraps incredible disrespect in pretty words doesn't make it anything but bile.

If I invited someone to my wedding, and they didn't want to attend because they "didn't believe in SSM" then that would be the end of that friendship. That is simply, unacceptable to me.

Lonely Eternity · Apr 18, 2015

If someone doesn't want to be there for me on what is supposed to be one of the happiest days of my life, then what do they really want when it comes to our relationship?

Are they only there when it is convenient for them? Am I there only so they can say, "I'm not an awful person! I have gay friends!" Are we only friends because you want to "save" me?

I had a friend, a gay friend, that joined an evangelical church and wanted me there for his baptism. Now I don't agree with trying to be something I am not just to be accepted by my family. Nor do I agree with Christianity. But I will be damned if I wasn't going to be there for him when he took this next step on his journey.

A friend, a true friend, is going to be there in the front row with a big smile and wish them the best for their future.

CaptainCourtesy · Apr 18, 2015

Someone is choosing their religion over their love/caring for someone. I cannot in any way support or celebrate that. We are not talking about someone murdering someone or something like that. If you cannot look past your religion to support your friend's celebration, you do not deserve to have that person in your life. This is not only about SSM, but it's about anything similar that one's "morals" are against... marrying outside one's religion, marrying interracially, and a whole host of other things. By attending that wedding, the individual is NOT endorsing SSM. They are endorsing THEIR LOVE FOR THEIR FRIEND. If they cannot see that, then, if I were their friend, our friendship would end.

CaptainCourtesy · Apr 18, 2015

Lonely Eternity said:
If someone doesn't want to be there for me on what is supposed to be one of the happiest days of my life, then what do they really want when it comes to our relationship?

Are they only there when it is convenient for them? Am I there only so they can say, "I'm not an awful person! I have gay friends!" Are we only friends because you want to "save" me?

I had a friend, a gay friend, that joined an evangelical church and wanted me there for his baptism. Now I don't agree with trying to be something I am not just to be accepted by my family. Nor do I agree with Christianity. But I will be damned if I wasn't going to be there for him when he took this next step on his journey.

A friend, a true friend, is going to be there in the front row with a big smile and wish them the best for their future.

I'm Jewish. I do not believe in the tenets of Christianity. The concept of Jesus being God is completely opposed to my views in every way. I have gone to Catholic funerals to remember my friend. I have gone to Christian weddings and services to support my friends. That's what a friend does, even if what they are doing is against their religion. I find it abhorrent that someone would put their religion over their friendships or loved ones over an issue like this.

Quag · Apr 18, 2015

CaptainCourtesy said:
I'm Jewish. I do not believe in the tenets of Christianity. The concept of Jesus being God is completely opposed to my views in every way. I have gone to Catholic funerals to remember my friend. I have gone to Christian weddings and services to support my friends. That's what a friend does, even if what they are doing is against their religion. I find it abhorrent that someone would put their religion over their friendships or loved ones over an issue like this.

I'll go one further.
I am not Catholic, my wife is. She wanted to get married in the church she grew up in presided by the Priest she knew most of her life.
Should I have refused to marry her because I disagree with her faith?
Should she have refused to marry me because I am not Catholic?
BTW her father was raised Catholic, her mother Protestant. Her mother converted when they married. I will not pretend to believe something that I do not believe for appearances. That would be more of an insult to my wife's religion than staying true to my beliefs.

Arcana XV · Apr 18, 2015

roguenuke said:
This is how I see it too. If they say "let's do couples' night", can you truly do that without "endorsing" those decisions? Are you going to accept their children, if they adopt, use a surrogate, have children otherwise, without judgment? How can you truly do that without accepting their marriage, their relationship?

And it is bull what she says about "condemning a loved one to go against God". That is an excuse. There is no other way to put it. You can change all the words she said, replacing them with interracial or interfaith couples, and would people not be against such a view? And I notice she doesn't mention that she treats others she views as sinful and committing their life against God in that way. I don't see how she could even attend a wedding of another faith either or of those who cannot have children with each other.

This is trying to treat someone like a child or at least condescendingly. It is saying "you are wrong in how you live your life and I can't do certain things with you because of that, but I'll still be your friend, I'll still love you". It is insulting. And it makes people in real life feel very small and rejected.

Yeah, I'm not gay, but I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if someone looked at my relationship with the person I love most in this world and passed that kind of judgement on it. Declaring it unholy and wrong, when to me our love is the most beautiful thing in the world. I think I would not want that kind of person in our life at all. Marriage is hard enough as it is without having to put up with that kind of negativity. If they put their relationship with their god first, then they must accept that their friends put their marriage first and may very well cut them out of their lives.

RAMOSS · Apr 18, 2015

CaptainCourtesy said:
Someone is choosing their religion over their love/caring for someone. I cannot in any way support or celebrate that. We are not talking about someone murdering someone or something like that. If you cannot look past your religion to support your friend's celebration, you do not deserve to have that person in your life. This is not only about SSM, but it's about anything similar that one's "morals" are against... marrying outside one's religion, marrying interracially, and a whole host of other things. By attending that wedding, the individual is NOT endorsing SSM. They are endorsing THEIR LOVE FOR THEIR FRIEND. If they cannot see that, then, if I were their friend, our friendship would end.

The thing is, she is choosing religion over her OWN son, if he ever should choose to get married (and he lives in a state where gay marriage is legal, and he IS gay)

He also is the product of an "out of wedlock' birth, which is ironic , since his mother is so vehement about marriage.

CLAX1911 · Apr 18, 2015

Arcana XV said:
Her reasoning makes no sense to me at all. How does she expect to keep the gay couple in her life? If she won't attend their wedding, I'm assuming she won't go to their house either to attend their dinner parties, bbq's or whatever. And I'm pretty sure she won't invite the couple to her place either. Or meet the kids if they have or adopt any. What kind of relationship does she expect to have with these people? I really don't think she's thought this through at all.

It's her way of handling her problem. More power to her. I'm not sure I'd cut her off if she were my friend. I understand some people have irrational hang ups. I don't misconstrue that as hatred, just ignorance. Ignorance is forgivable.

roguenuke · Apr 19, 2015

CLAX1911 said:
It's her way of handling her problem. More power to her. I'm not sure I'd cut her off if she were my friend. I understand some people have irrational hang ups. I don't misconstrue that as hatred, just ignorance. Ignorance is forgivable.

Ignorance is forgivable, to a point. There is a point though where it can interfere with your interactions with that person or where their behaviors due to their ignorance/beliefs simply can't be dismissed.

I can definitely see some major issues if someone like this woman tried to maintain a relationship with a married gay person, whether family or friend. Especially if after the marriage, they decided to have children. Generally married couples do try to hang out with other married people, enjoying being together with their friends as couples. And we generally allow our families to get to know each other. I haven't met many though who hold such convictions that they would exclude themselves from a wedding that they could actually maintain a respectful, loving relationship with that person, including not trying to change them or bring up the fact that they feel they are wrong for being who they are. In fact, I don't know really if I know anyone who could do this. I've known guys who brought up the fact that I wasn't Christian and how I needed to be saved at pretty much every opportunity. They simply could not accept that I was not Christian without trying to "help" me. That is how they saw it too. And from the description we have of her feelings, claiming that the person is "damning their loved one to hell with them", I can't see them really being able to let that go without ever commenting on it.

Risky Thicket · Apr 19, 2015

Your Star said:
If I invited someone to my wedding, and they didn't want to attend because they "didn't believe in SSM" then that would be the end of that friendship. That is simply, unacceptable to me.

When you get married if you invite me and I am in Atlanta. I'd be proud to be at your wedding.

Hell froze over

CriticalThought

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod

tres borrachos

HoHoHo

joG

Paschendale

Uncanny

LowDown

Curmudgeon

Skeptic Bob

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod

Thrilla

Quag

CriticalThought

Arcana XV

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod

Arcana XV

roguenuke

Your Star

Rage More!

Lonely Eternity

Member

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

CaptainCourtesy

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

Quag

Arcana XV

RAMOSS

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

roguenuke

Risky Thicket

Sewer Rat