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A Christian family, a gay son – and a Wichita father’s change of heart

Whether or not he's fighting against it doesn't make it right. It's not irrelevant, because him living as a homosexual is still sin whether or not he accepts that or not.

In your opinion... which as I said is irrelevant because your opinion is not truth. Sorry. Morality is relative.

We may have, but morality is not relative. Your position that it is is not only self defeating and contradicting but also based on nothing more than personal opinion and not a higher authority. If morality is relative then people set their own morals and there isn't a higher power that delegate morals nor a judge that sets standards for right or wrong (God). The statement that all morality is relative is a relative statement in and of itself and also self contradictory because stating such is an absolute statement. You don't accept the Biblical truth that God has given us, that's your belief. But that does not make yours correct and the position that all morals are relative is still a fallacy and self defeating. To say my position is wrong you must either prove that there is no God or judge or that if there is one that they have set forth no moral standards or sin, that they do not judge humans and that they have delegated moral authority over to each individual person with that person essentially being the judge of all right and wrong. Relative morality cannot exist within the context of the world having a higher power that has set standards for sin, holy living or a final judgement of individuals by said higher power on issues where the higher power has authority. I base the fact that morality is based on the absolute code for morals and ethics given in the Bible due to fulfilled Biblical prophecy, seeing the tangible works of God through the Holy Spirit in my life (and the life of others) and the fact that it has not been properly refuted. Mine is based on a higher authority, not my own. Your position that all morality is relative places you as the moral authority over others and makes a self contradicting statement that all morals are relative without offering any proof. As I said, for such to be true then there must not be a higher power or if there is one they simply don't care about morals or judge sin or they have delegated moral authority over to people (for which proof of such action should be shown). Moral relativity cannot exist in the presense of a higher power that has set standards for morals and sin, because such higher power has authority over humanity and what humanity may believe is absolutely wrong in contrast to what has authority. It's similar to someone believing that it's acceptable to murder when the authority (being the law) saying otherwise, what they believe is irrelevant and the higher power (police and justice system) have the say in that matter. Similarly, a person can believe that it's fine to have homosexual sex, but that's irrelevant when the higher power who has the final say says it's wrong and that person's beliefs do not trump what is morally correct which is correct because the higher authority (God) delegates that.

Nothing here that refutes anything I said. In fact, you get so much wrong that it's really not possible to count that high. Firstly, moral relativity does not depend on there being no God, nor does it depend on God having set no moral standards. There is a God (to me) and He has set moral standards. Just not the moral standards that you believe he's set. So, there are now two possibilities. Either morals are relative, or those that I'VE seen God set are absolute. I'm fine with either. How about you?
 
If one of my daughters turned out to be gay, it would be the same in my mind as if she turned out to be left-handed. I would only hope that she wasn't exposed to too much hate from ignorant assholes. That's about it.

It wouldn't matter to me one bit if either of my kids was. And quite frankly I think you really must be a full blooded idiot if you follow a religion that doesn't allow you to love your kids for who they are. Not a lot of independent or critical thought when you just follow a book and kick your kids out of the house and disown them.
 
It wouldn't matter to me one bit if either of my kids was. And quite frankly I think you really must be a full blooded idiot if you follow a religion that doesn't allow you to love your kids for who they are. Not a lot of independent or critical thought when you just follow a book and kick your kids out of the house and disown them.

The thought that anybody would perceive their children as disposable when weighed against the teachings of their "God" is is beyond comprehension to me.
 
This father is doing a massive disservice to their child as a Christian by supporting and even trying to "change" Biblical truth when they find out their child is struggling with the sin of homosexuality.

People are weak, Christians included. Many do not want to stand for truth, which is why they rationalize why it's ok for them to get a divorce when it isn't Biblically merited or do any other kind of sin. The father is encouraging their child to live a life of sin and if their child isn't saved or forgiven of that (which would be the child's decision to repent) they will spend an eternity in hell for it. He does his child the ultimate disservice and harm by encouraging this and changing his view when it's convenient for him to do so rather than to stand up for what is true and encourage their child in holy living.
itis not a sin. The bible never makes mention of it. You are doing Christianity a disservice by perpetuating this nonsense.
 
It's not the one I've chosen for myself, it's the one that applies to all mankind regardless of if they chose it. It's just simply the truth. If it was up to me I wouldn't want homosexual sex to be wrong or sinful. The God of the Bible, the One True God, says it's wrong and also says that sin is judged and without forgiveness people chose hell. The frivolous crap is rejecting Biblical truth and rationalizing in a deceptive way around the truth to believe that something that is wrong isn't.
see post #29
 
it [homosexual behavior]is not a sin. The bible never makes mention of it. You are doing Christianity a disservice by perpetuating this nonsense.

The Bible makes clear and explicit mention of it, and makes it clear that it is unacceptable.

The Bible also lays out more generalized standards of sexual morality, which, even if homosexuality were never mentioned, homosexuality would clearly violate.

You are only fooling yourself by trying to claim that the Bible does not say what it very clearly does say. The Bible does not support your assertion that God approves of your sinful life choice.
 
The Bible makes clear and explicit mention of it, and makes it clear that it is unacceptable.

No it doesn't.

The Bible also lays out more generalized standards of sexual morality, which, even if homosexuality were never mentioned, homosexuality would clearly violate.

Fail again.

You are only fooling yourself by trying to claim that the Bible does not say what it very clearly does say. The Bible does not support your assertion that God approves of your sinful life choice.

Your relative morality is irrelevant. Just thought you'd like to know.
 
Sick. Your ideology kills people who can't fit it's cookie cutter standards. Are you aware of that? Homosexual Christian teenagers take their lives all the time because they can not do the impossible. They can't change their sexuality. Nor can they live a life where they pretend that they are not gay. So in their shame and pity they kill themselves.

If your idea of a moral high ground as Christian is to keep that tradition alive, shaming the "deviants". Churches might as well hand out noosed ropes and stools, because the path the send these people down is extremely dark and troubling.

Christian 'Exorcism' Leads to Gay Teen's Suicide - Christian Piatt | God's Politics Blog | Sojourners

John Shore: Gay Teen Suicides, Bullying and Christianity: A Talk with the Trevor Project Director


Meet the American Pastor Behind Uganda's Anti-Gay Crackdown | Mother Jones

And then you ask for respect for your beliefs.
The indifference is disgusting. How on earth can these people say they follow Jesus's teachings of they would stand idle while their child kills themself.

The only "christian" that responded here only did so to pass judgement and condemn people to hell. Those must be some mighty big cajones to usurp God's duty and make it your own.
 
The Bible makes clear and explicit mention of it, and makes it clear that it is unacceptable.

The Bible also lays out more generalized standards of sexual morality, which, even if homosexuality were never mentioned, homosexuality would clearly violate.

You are only fooling yourself by trying to claim that the Bible does not say what it very clearly does say. The Bible does not support your assertion that God approves of your sinful life choice.


It is funny. You are all for respecting religious beliefs until someone views the religion differently. Then it is all about your certitude about what the Bible says and how it should be interpreted.
 
The Bible makes clear and explicit mention of it, and makes it clear that it is unacceptable.

The Bible also lays out more generalized standards of sexual morality, which, even if homosexuality were never mentioned, homosexuality would clearly violate.
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Thank you doctor Cox.

You are merely twisting interpretation to excuse your prejudice. That ship simply will not sail.

You are only fooling yourself by trying to claim that the Bible does not say what it very clearly does say.
And you are only fooling yourself when you say that the bible says something it clearly does not.
The Bible does not support your assertion that God approves of your sinful life choice.
That was never my assertion. But thanks for the false accusations it really damages your case.

My only assertion in that homosexuality isn't sinful. So thank you.
 
I don't know about anybody else but I sure am tired of these predators that have hijacked Christianity and the conservative party.
 
A Christian family, a gay son – and a Wichita father’s change of heart | Wichita Eagle

Very good read. I've yet to see a christian who could explain why shellfish and divorce are okay, but homosexuality is not.

Probably that is because Divorce except in very particular circumstances is also contrary to what we teach.

However, as for this standard trope :yawn:, as you implicitly point out, people are excellent at designing excuses for doing what they want to do, including validating the choices of their children.
 
It's not the one I've chosen for myself, it's the one that applies to all mankind regardless of if they chose it. It's just simply the truth. If it was up to me I wouldn't want homosexual sex to be wrong or sinful. The God of the Bible, the One True God, says it's wrong and also says that sin is judged and without forgiveness people chose hell. The frivolous crap is rejecting Biblical truth and rationalizing in a deceptive way around the truth to believe that something that is wrong isn't.

Nah, you chose it. And you choose to believe it applies to all people. Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system. Now you are free to choose to believe whatever you want, but I choose to believe that the god you envision is a very petty creature if he is so concerned with who people sleep with that he will allow them to live in a place of eternal suffering regardless of every other aspect of how they have lived their life. You are free to believe in such a petty creature, and conduct your life in accordance by it, but do not be surprised if others concern themselves with less frivolous crap.
 
This father is doing a massive disservice to their child as a Christian by supporting and even trying to "change" Biblical truth when they find out their child is struggling with the sin of homosexuality.

People are weak, Christians included. Many do not want to stand for truth, which is why they rationalize why it's ok for them to get a divorce when it isn't Biblically merited or do any other kind of sin. The father is encouraging their child to live a life of sin and if their child isn't saved or forgiven of that (which would be the child's decision to repent) they will spend an eternity in hell for it. He does his child the ultimate disservice and harm by encouraging this and changing his view when it's convenient for him to do so rather than to stand up for what is true and encourage their child in holy living.

Bull ****.....Jesus Christ spent his life living and preaching about things that most "Christians" do not preach today...let alone live up to. If so called "Christians" would simply emulate a Christ-llke life, the world would be a better place. Instead....they preach this kind of BS and hatred.
 
Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

That's actually one of the best descriptors of relative morality that I have seen. Can I use it as my sig?
 
Sick. Your ideology kills people who can't fit it's cookie cutter standards. Are you aware of that? Homosexual Christian teenagers take their lives all the time because they can not do the impossible. They can't change their sexuality. Nor can they live a life where they pretend that they are not gay. So in their shame and pity they kill themselves.

If your idea of a moral high ground as Christian is to keep that tradition alive, shaming the "deviants". Churches might as well hand out noosed ropes and stools, because the path the send these people down is extremely dark and troubling.

Christian 'Exorcism' Leads to Gay Teen's Suicide - Christian Piatt | God's Politics Blog | Sojourners

John Shore: Gay Teen Suicides, Bullying and Christianity: A Talk with the Trevor Project Director


Meet the American Pastor Behind Uganda's Anti-Gay Crackdown | Mother Jones

And then you ask for respect for your beliefs.

Sadly too many "Christians" have lost touch of what Christ really taught and spend their lives preaching about things that couldn't be further from everything that Christ taught about. I feel sorry for their misguided and perverted version of his life teachings.
 
The indifference is disgusting. How on earth can these people say they follow Jesus's teachings of they would stand idle while their child kills themself.

I can't imaqine any parent "standing idle." Are you saying that these parents "let" their kids commit suicide? If so, this is a terrible, terrible accusation.
 
I can't imaqine any parent "standing idle." Are you saying that these parents "let" their kids commit suicide? If so, this is a terrible, terrible accusation.

Maybe more like "led their child to" commit suicide?
 
I can't imaqine any parent "standing idle." Are you saying that these parents "let" their kids commit suicide? If so, this is a terrible, terrible accusation.
Yes they do. They throw them out as children even. The accusation isn't terrible the action is. The accusation is truth. I am living with two people currently that are a testament to that truth.

Google it, it's simply to heart wrenching for me to go out and find examples. One you can Google is Bobby Griffith.
 
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Whether or not he's fighting against it doesn't make it right. It's not irrelevant, because him living as a homosexual is still sin whether or not he accepts that or not.



We may have, but morality is not relative. Your position that it is is not only self defeating and contradicting but also based on nothing more than personal opinion and not a higher authority. If morality is relative then people set their own morals and there isn't a higher power that delegate morals nor a judge that sets standards for right or wrong (God). The statement that all morality is relative is a relative statement in and of itself and also self contradictory because stating such is an absolute statement. You don't accept the Biblical truth that God has given us, that's your belief. But that does not make yours correct and the position that all morals are relative is still a fallacy and self defeating. To say my position is wrong you must either prove that there is no God or judge or that if there is one that they have set forth no moral standards or sin, that they do not judge humans and that they have delegated moral authority over to each individual person with that person essentially being the judge of all right and wrong. Relative morality cannot exist within the context of the world having a higher power that has set standards for sin, holy living or a final judgement of individuals by said higher power on issues where the higher power has authority. I base the fact that morality is based on the absolute code for morals and ethics given in the Bible due to fulfilled Biblical prophecy, seeing the tangible works of God through the Holy Spirit in my life (and the life of others) and the fact that it has not been properly refuted. Mine is based on a higher authority, not my own. Your position that all morality is relative places you as the moral authority over others and makes a self contradicting statement that all morals are relative without offering any proof. As I said, for such to be true then there must not be a higher power or if there is one they simply don't care about morals or judge sin or they have delegated moral authority over to people (for which proof of such action should be shown). Moral relativity cannot exist in the presense of a higher power that has set standards for morals and sin, because such higher power has authority over humanity and what humanity may believe is absolutely wrong in contrast to what has authority. It's similar to someone believing that it's acceptable to murder when the authority (being the law) saying otherwise, what they believe is irrelevant and the higher power (police and justice system) have the say in that matter. Similarly, a person can believe that it's fine to have homosexual sex, but that's irrelevant when the higher power who has the final say says it's wrong and that person's beliefs do not trump what is morally correct which is correct because the higher authority (God) delegates that.


Your religion's silly fables wither when logic and reason are applied. Information, science, logic, reason, available to all, are the death knell of the mysticism of the ignorant from centuries ago.
 
The Bible makes clear and explicit mention of it, and makes it clear that it is unacceptable.

The Bible also lays out more generalized standards of sexual morality, which, even if homosexuality were never mentioned, homosexuality would clearly violate.

You are only fooling yourself by trying to claim that the Bible does not say what it very clearly does say. The Bible does not support your assertion that God approves of your sinful life choice.

I don't approve of your man made god.
 
Yes they do. They throw them out as children even. The accusation isn't terrible the action is. The accusation is truth. I am living with two people currently that are a testament to that truth.

For several years my house had more than one long-term guest who'd been kicked out; you aren't telling me anything that I haven't lived. But anybody saying that any parent "let" or "led" his or her own child to commit suicide is a dreadful accusation.
 
For several years my house had more than one long-term guest who'd been kicked out; you aren't telling me anything that I haven't lived. But anybody saying that any parent "let" or "led" his or her own child to commit suicide is a dreadful accusation.

Look at it this way. It is a dreadful ACT by the parent that leads to the reaction by the child.
 
For several years my house had more than one long-term guest who'd been kicked out; you aren't telling me anything that I haven't lived. But anybody saying that any parent "let" or "led" his or her own child to commit suicide is a dreadful accusation.
It's not a dreadful accusation, it's an apt one. It's a dreadful action, the accusation is simply the truth. Google it.

I am sorry our world is inhabited by the midst evil creatures imaginable. Don't blame the messenger.
 
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