Provocative French Short Film Examines Sexism via Gender Role Reversal

Ben K. · Feb 12, 2014

Anyone like the gratuitous booty shots on the bike? If that was intended, that was clever.

CLAX1911 · Feb 12, 2014

Ben K. said:
Anyone like the gratuitous booty shots on the bike? If that was intended, that was clever.

Wasted on me. Sorry.

Gathomas88 · Feb 12, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
You are the fellow in the box. These facts are completely irrelevant.

You heard it here first folks.

Facts? Fuggedaboutem!

They're "completely irrelevant." :lamo

False.

Nope. It's absolutely correct.

The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory

I dare you to present any hard evidence to the contrary.

Strictly cultural.
still doesn't prove that such behaviors are not learned.

And every human society on the planet just so happens to have a "culture" which, where broad archetypes are concerned, embraces more or less exactly the same view of gender roles? :roll:

That would be innate "nature," then, not "culture."

What science? I haven't seen any that says definitively that culture is not the major factor in this. You posted some things about how men and women are biologically different (duh!) Anybody that watched kindergarten cop knows that. You posted nothing that debunks culture as the driving force in behavior.

And you have presented absolutely nothing to support your initial claim that men only behave the way they do because of culture, with nature playing no role whatsoever.

You haven't a clue. Go work in a ladies prison and then come back tomorrow and apologize for such a ridiculous asumption.

Go pick a fight with a lady, btw enjoy having your ass handed to you.

:lamo

Dude, again... Just stop.

In some ways women are Steiner than men. If you don't believe me cram a baby sized obgect out of an orafice of your choice.

Which has what to do with a person's ability to forcibly overpower and rape another human being, exactly?

Men can lift more weight, that doesn't translate to stronger. Sorry.

It kind of does. Sorry.

That is because you are culturally programmed to believe they are weaker. You under estimate opponents, see how many times you get smashed into the ground. I have seen a woman kick a door completely off of a patrol car. She wasn't high, she broke five bones and hopped into intake on her own after betting tased she was 140 lbs. I pinched a six foot five bodybuilder's neck and he flopped to the ground and begged me to stop.

The day I am physically overpowered by a woman, I'll eat my damn shorts.

Please tell me how you are genetically stronger than women, and that culture hasn't programmed you to think that way again please. I do enjoy a good laugh.

Feel free to explain how literally every study ever conducted on the subject could be wrong then. :roll:

Do men really have more upper body strength than women?

Women's lower body strength tends to be more closely matched to men's, while their upper body strength is often just half that of men's upper body strength. In a 1993 study exploring gender differences in muscle makeup, female participants exhibited 52 percent of men's upper body strength, which the researchers partially attributed to their smaller muscles and a higher concentration of fatty tissues in the top half of the female body [source: Miller et al]. Another study published in 1999 similarly found women had 40 percent less upper body skeletal muscle [source: Janssen]. Even controlling for athletic aptitude doesn't tip the upper body strength scales in favor of the female; an experiment comparing the hand grip strength of non-athletic male participants versus elite women athletes still revealed a muscle power disparity in favor of the menfolk [source: Leyk et al].

Even athletic women are commonly found to be physically weaker than unathletic men.

spud_meister · Feb 12, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
Anyway back to the topic. I myself enjoy seeing the roles reversed.

Indeed, although I don't think most men would be aware of the actual dynamics of gender roles, as they just live it and rarely consider why. I work in childcare, traditionally a woman's job, so I get to see the results and reactions of what happens when you're not conforming to traditional gender roles, or traditional non-conformation (I found out recently that this actually exists, a feminist sort, complete with short hair and multiple piercings, stopped just shy of accusing me of being a paedophile because I work with kids, clearly I wasn't breaking society down the way she wanted).

CLAX1911 · Feb 12, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
You heard it here first folks.

Facts? Fuggedaboutem!

They're "completely irrelevant." :lamo

Nope. It's absolutely correct.

The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory

I dare you to present any hard evidence to the contrary.

And every human society on the planet just so happens to have a "culture" which, where broad archetypes are concerned, embraces more or less exactly the same view of gender roles? :roll:

That would be innate "nature," then, not "culture."

And you have presented absolutely nothing to support your initial claim that men only behave the way they do because of culture, with nature playing no role whatsoever.

:lamo

Dude, again... Just stop.

Which has what to do with a person's ability to forcibly overpower and rape another human being, extactly?

It kind of does. Sorry.

The day I am physically overpowered by a woman, I'll eat my damn shorts.

Feel free to explain how literally every study ever conducted on the subject could be wrong then. :roll:

Do men really have more upper body strength than women?

Even athletic women are commonly found to be physically weaker than unathletic men.

Real life is going to hit you like a concrete truck one day.

CLAX1911 · Feb 12, 2014

spud_meister said:
Indeed, although I don't think most men would be aware of the actual dynamics of gender roles, as they just live it and rarely consider why. I work in childcare, traditionally a woman's job, so I get to see the results and reactions of what happens when you're not conforming to traditional gender roles, or traditional non-conformation (I found out recently that this actually exists, a feminist sort, complete with short hair and multiple piercings, stopped just shy of accusing me of being a paedophile because I work with kids, clearly I wasn't breaking society down the way she wanted).

It's strange this double standard. In my department my supervisor has asked me if I wanted to be with a frame partner. His words, "gay men with female partners guarantees that there aren't going to be any funny business going on." I was a little taken aback by that, I didn't think such things actually happen. Of course I jumped on the opportunity, women have many strengths that men do not have.

That is wild, some womynist thought that you were a perv because you work with children, wwwwooooowwwww. How ridiculous can people be?

spud_meister · Feb 12, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
It's strange this double standard. In my department my supervisor has asked me if I wanted to be with a frame partner. His words, "gay men with female partners guarantees that there aren't going to be any funny business going on." I was a little taken aback by that, I didn't think such things actually happen. Of course I jumped on the opportunity, women have many strengths that men do not have.

People who deny the impact of gender roles are living in denial, even on homosexuals, gender roles are the reason sexuality-based stereotypes exist, the effeminate gay man and the butch lesbian are simply responses to traditional roles. People who complain about gay stereotypes are often the people who reinforce gender roles, and contribute the most to the stereotypes.

That is wild, some womynist thought that you were a perv because you work with children, wwwwooooowwwww. How ridiculous can people be?

Yep. First time I was ever exposed to a crazy man-hating feminist. She was standing on a corner handing out pamphlets had the idea that all men were slaves to their sex drive and stuff like that, very much an idiot.

CLAX1911 · Feb 12, 2014

spud_meister said:
People who deny the impact of gender roles are living in denial, even on homosexuals, gender roles are the reason sexuality-based stereotypes exist, the effeminate gay man and the butch lesbian are simply responses to traditional roles. People who complain about gay stereotypes are often the people who reinforce gender roles, and contribute the most to the stereotypes.

I agree with you about people reinforcing the stereotypes they dislike. Never understood my husband's friend named Zack. Zack is what I refer to as a Faye homosexual. He talks in the stereotypical lispy way. And people always assume he is the "woman" in his relationship. It pissed him off when I told her he shouldn't wear women's clothing that is what is sending that message. :shrug:

Yep. First time I was ever exposed to a crazy man-hating feminist. She was standing on a corner handing out pamphlets had the idea that all men were slaves to their sex drive and stuff like that, very much an idiot.

I have never encountered such a person. The only place I remember seeing them was on a movie called PCU.

SmokeAndMirrors · Feb 12, 2014

Koros said:
I watched it too, and your experiences in life must be vastly different than mine. In watching it, I didn't see anything that seemed to ring true. I don't know any man who behaves as the women in that film did, nor do I know of any woman who is raped and treated like that. Perhaps it differs from city to city and culture to culture, dependent upon where one lives. But, in the end, this seemed more like a propaganda film than any sort of true social commentary.

It does depend on where one lives. I have been in places where this kind of thing happens pretty much daily -- the whole "pack" of idiot Guidos and all.

But it is happening to me less and less as I get older, despite that I am one of those people who didn't really "bloom" until I got into my 20's. A lot of it has to do with how you carry yourself. I am simply not open to harassment, posturally. I don't get it in the work place either. Weirdly enough, it also means cops pay less attention to me (they used to routinely slow down or approach me and ask if I was "ok" -- as though I may suddenly collapse from the delicacy of my womanhood).

So part of it has to do with your own position of self-empowerment. And from that perspective, yes, the way our culture trains women to devalue themselves is instrumental in this kind of abuse continuing to happen.

Gathomas88 said:
Is jogging without a shirt a normal thing for women to do in France? I thought that was supposed to be painful?

Not necessarily. Boobs have ligaments. When you use them, they tighten up and resist the "snap-back" that women who routinely wear bras experience (although women who are very large chested may experience this either way).

CLAX1911 · Feb 12, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
You heard it here first folks.

Facts? Fuggedaboutem!

They're "completely irrelevant." :lamo

the facts you presented are facts but they don't have much to do with this.

Nope. It's absolutely correct.

The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory

A book? It's hardly proof.

I dare you to present any hard evidence to the contrary.

Contrary to what? Your idea that culture doesn't exist? Nobody believes that.

And every human society on the planet just so happens to have a "culture" which, where broad archetypes are concerned, embraces more or less exactly the same view of gender roles? :roll:

Have a what? Culture? Yeah one that programs it's males to believe that they are superior. I know that, that is what I have been saying.

That would be innate "nature," then, not "culture."

Nature plays a role, but culture plays a big role also.

And you have presented absolutely nothing to support your initial claim that men only behave the way they do because of culture, with nature playing no role whatsoever.

Only somebody that is blind deaf and dumb wouldn't see it, or somebody that has an invested interest in suggesting gender roles are genetic. We tell our boys not to cry we tell our girls they are princesses. We view behavior as having gender specific purposes. Explain how none of that societal conditioning matters.

:lamo

Dude, again... Just stop.

I will never stop telling the truth.

Which has what to do with a person's ability to forcibly overpower and rape another human being, exactly?

Pain tolerance.

It kind of does. Sorry.

Why are the guys that can benchpress 350-450 lbs such pansies than?

The day I am physically overpowered by a woman, I'll eat my damn shorts.

Oooo a tough guy. They always eat crow.

Feel free to explain how literally every study ever conducted on the subject could be wrong then. :roll:

Do men really have more upper body strength than women?

Again, another flaw in your programming. Women hand more lower body strength, and the ones that know that can over power a man.

Standard ape like mentality, how hard one can beat his own chest it's not a measure of strength.

Even athletic women are commonly found to be physically weaker than unathletic men.

Still saw a non athletic 140lbs woman kick a car door off of a patrol car break five bones in her leg get tased and hop into intake unassisted. And a big burly weight lifter wet his pants over a pinch.

Women aren't as weak as you wish they were.

CLAX1911 · Feb 12, 2014

SmokeAndMirrors said:
It does depend on where one lives. I have been in places where this kind of thing happens pretty much daily -- the whole "pack" of idiot Guidos and all.

But it is happening to me less and less as I get older, despite that I am one of those people who didn't really "bloom" until I got into my 20's. A lot of it has to do with how you carry yourself. I am simply not open to harassment, posturally. I don't get it in the work place either. Weirdly enough, it also means cops pay less attention to me (they used to routinely slow down or approach me and ask if I was "ok" -- as though I may suddenly collapse from the delicacy of my womanhood).

So part of it has to do with your own position of self-empowerment. And from that perspective, yes, the way our culture trains women to devalue themselves is instrumental in this kind of abuse continuing to happen.

I believe you are spot on. People that take advantage of others normally pick am easy target. Depending on the way you carry yourself you are sending a message be it of fear or strength. Sadly most women are bright up to be what some people consider feminine which is often misconstrued as weakness. Just read gathomas's posts and see how deeply this behavioral standard goes.

I think we should evaluate what we consider feminine behavior.

Not necessarily. Boobs have ligaments. When you use them, they tighten up and resist the "snap-back" that women who routinely wear bras experience (although women who are very large chested may experience this either way).

Gathomas was far too caught up in his gender identity crisis to understand the reason for that.

It was a hypothetical world where gender roles were reversed and since men can run bare chested women could in this movie. I know you get it, I am just going he reads this.

Ben K. · Feb 12, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
Wasted on me. Sorry.

Talking about the dude's ass. Seems like the director was tacitly admitting that if this were a straight up film about a woman getting assaulted, the victim would be sexualised by a director with shots like that.

I may be reading too much into it...

Dr. Chuckles · Feb 12, 2014

rathi said:
Did you read the Steubenville case? That sort of behavior is unfortunately common pretty much everywhere.

So one lone incident proves that it's common behavior everywhere?

Lol @ that level of logic

Dr. Chuckles · Feb 12, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
Irrelevant brain structures and coping with emotions have absolutely nothing to do with adhering to cultural memes.

How can anyone claim culture has nothing to do with our biology when human behaviors and ideas are defined by our biological limits at their very roots?

Dr. Chuckles · Feb 12, 2014

spud_meister said:
Indeed, although I don't think most men would be aware of the actual dynamics of gender roles, as they just live it and rarely consider why. I work in childcare, traditionally a woman's job, so I get to see the results and reactions of what happens when you're not conforming to traditional gender roles, or traditional non-conformation (I found out recently that this actually exists, a feminist sort, complete with short hair and multiple piercings, stopped just shy of accusing me of being a paedophile because I work with kids, clearly I wasn't breaking society down the way she wanted).

Yeah, it's weird how we have these pre-established roles we are expected to fit, even when we rebel against mainstream society. It's akin to adopting a new uniform for many people

Gathomas88 · Feb 12, 2014

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Not necessarily. Boobs have ligaments. When you use them, they tighten up and resist the "snap-back" that women who routinely wear bras experience (although women who are very large chested may experience this either way).

Probably. Judging from what I've seen on the National Geographic channel, however; I do think that a certain degree of "wear and tear" would probably be inevitable.

CLAX1911 said:
the facts you presented are facts but they don't have much to do with this.

Awww, I thought you weren't talking to me anymore? :lol:

Studies which blatantly show that men are more prone to aggressive behavior, less prone to emotional behavior, and generally rely upon the analytical sides of their brains more than women, do not prove that men are generally more aggressive than women, less emotional, and more prone to look upon the world in strictly analytical ways which fall in line with the archetype of "masculine" behavior?

You sure about that? Lol

A book? It's hardly proof.

And what proof, or Hell, even evidence, have you presented, Clax? :roll:

Contrary to what? Your idea that culture doesn't exist? Nobody believes that.

A) You didn't answer my question. Provide evidence to support your claim that Matriarchy exists immediately or concede the point.

B) I dare you to provide a single instance of me ever saying that culture "doesn't exist."

Have a what? Culture? Yeah one that programs it's males to believe that they are superior. I know that, that is what I have been saying.

I didn't say a damn thing about anyone being "superior."

I said that gender roles tended to be more or less constant across cultural lines, even in societies in where women hold social power greater or equal power to that of men.

Nature plays a role, but culture plays a big role also.

Undoubtedly. However, men are always going to be men, and women and always going to be women regardless of any concept of "culture." They always have been and always will be.

Again, these things are well nigh universal, even in "cultures" which are not as strictly "patriarchal" as our own.

Only somebody that is blind deaf and dumb wouldn't see it, or somebody that has an invested interest in suggesting gender roles are genetic. We tell our boys not to cry we tell our girls they are princesses. We view behavior as having gender specific purposes. Explain how none of that societal conditioning matters.

In other words, "I'm right because I say so, and NANANANANANANANANA I can't heaaaaaaarrrr youuuu!!! "

Pain tolerance.

And if you'd actually read the sources I'd posted, you'd realize that men have women beat in this regard as well.

Do men and women feel pain differently?

while women can endure the excruciating pain of childbirth, studies show that they're more sensitive to general pain than men [source: Society for Neuroscience]. In fact, over a lifetime, women experience more pain than men, and of all cohorts, white women older than 45 years report the most pain [source: Kritz].

To get a sense of how wide this painful gender gap is, consider the prevalence rates of certain chronic conditions:
•Women report 40 percent more osteoporosis pain than men.
•One in five women suffers from migraine headaches, compared to one in 17 men.
•Nine times more women than men are affected by fibromyalgia.

[source: National Institutes of Health]

Of course, sorting out the gender disparities of pain responses doesn't boil down to women being the weaker sex. Rather, male and female bodies don't process pain the same way. If a man and a woman each place their hands on a hot stove, different parts of their brains will activate. In 2003, researchers at UCLA discovered that the cognitive, or analytic, region of the male brain lights up, while the female limbic system, the brain's emotional headquarters, springs into action [source: University of California - Los Angeles].

Scientific facts aren't going to go away simply because you happen to dislike them, Clax.

Why are the guys that can benchpress 350-450 lbs such pansies than?

We're talking about reality here, Clax, not that screaming bag of hyperactive wet cats you seem to call an imagination. :roll:

Oooo a tough guy. They always eat crow.

I'm quaking in my boots, I'm sure.

It's kind of hard to be intimidated by someone you could flip over your shoulder and casually stroll away with. As a matter of fact, I've done so with particularly feisty women on more than a few occasions.

Women hand more lower body strength

No, they have roughly equal lower body strength to a man, on a pound per pound basis. It doesn't change the fact that they tend to have a lot fewer pounds to throw around than most men in the first place.

Lower body strength is also not as important to the matter we were discussing here (i.e. domestic violence and rape) as upper body strength.

and the ones that know that can over power a man.

I'm sure they can overpower you easily enough.

Still saw a non athletic 140lbs woman kick a car door off of a patrol car break five bones in her leg get tased and hop into intake unassisted.

Clearly, she shouldn't have done that.

Dr. Chuckles · Feb 12, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
I said that gender roles tended to be more or less constant across cultural lines, even in societies in where women hold social power greater or equal power to that of men.

Not that I have exhaustive knowledge on the subject, but the two immediate examples that come to mind are the spartans and a tribe in Southern India (Kerala). In both instances women tend to dominate the household and society, but such is both directly dependent on the fact that men were constantly engaged in war (or dead from it), or off training.

So while women tended to head the household and politics in certain instances, what we would refer to normal gender roles still persisted.

SmokeAndMirrors · Feb 12, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
Probably. Judging from what I've seen on the National Geographic channel, however; I do think that a certain degree of "wear and tear" would probably be inevitable.

What, you think women in the west don't get the sag? You do know that their boobs look different without the bra on, right? :lol: If anything, they tend to get it worse, and there's some studies baring that out these days.

It's like believing exercise makes your muscles waste. This is the 21st century version of the idea that corsets are necessary to keep women's backs from collapsing.

Gathomas88 · Feb 12, 2014

Dr. Chuckles said:
Not that I have exhaustive knowledge on the subject, but the two immediate examples that come to mind are the spartans and a tribe in Southern India (Kerala). In both instances women tend to dominate the household and society, but such is both directly dependent on the fact that men were constantly engaged in war (or dead from it), or off training.

So while women tended to head the household and politics in certain instances, what we would refer to normal gender roles still persisted.

Exactly. Even in societies where political leadership positions are filled by the vote of female elders, the chieftains they elect pretty much always tend to be men, as do the warriors the chieftains are responsible for directing.

If anything, gender roles in societies where women hold a greater degree of social power tend to be more strict than they are in the West. They've basically been hyper-emphasized to the point of almost becoming a sort of gender based caste system.

SmokeAndMirrors said:
What, you think women in the west don't get the sag? You do know that their boobs look different without the bra on, right? :lol: If anything, they tend to get it worse, and there's some studies baring that out these days.

It's like saying exercise makes your muscles waste. This is the 21st century version of the idea that corsets are necessary to keep women's backs from collapsing.

Again, while it might not make all that major of a difference, it is hard to deny that bras and other "supportive" wear does play a role in preventing sag over extended time scales.

In more primitive societies, it is not uncommon for women to go almost completely flat before they hit thirty.

SmokeAndMirrors · Feb 12, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
Again, while it might not make all that major of a difference, it is hard to deny that bras and other "supportive" wear does play a role in preventing sag over extended time scales.

In more primitive societies, it is not uncommon for women to go almost completely flat before they hit thirty.

I'm afraid you're mistaken.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/259073.php

First of all, those women breastfeed for sometimes 15 years straight. No woman is gonna be perky after that at any age. Second, those women aren't 30. They're 45+. They live into their 60s, you know.

Dr. Chuckles · Feb 12, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
In more primitive societies, it is not uncommon for women to go almost completely flat before they hit thirty.

that's probably more due to constant pregnancy and breast feeding

Gathomas88 · Feb 12, 2014

SmokeAndMirrors said:
I'm afraid you're mistaken.
Bras Make Breasts Sag, 15-Year Study Concludes - Medical News Today

First off, even your own study reports that this is inconclusive.

All his volunteers were between 18 and 35 years old. Rouillon emphasized that although his study spanned many years and included hundreds of women, he in no way claims his sample population is representative of the global population of women.

In an interview with The Local, an English-written newspaper in France, Rouillon stressed "These are preliminary results. The small sample of 320 young women is not representative of the entire population - that would require something like 300,000 subjects."

And that it likely doesn't hold true for the entirety of the female population.

Rouillon warns that some women should not throw their bras away immediately. For example, older women (45 years or more) would derive no benefit from throwing away their bra. In an interview with Reuters, he said "But a middle-aged woman, overweight, with 2.4 children? I'm not at all sure she'd benefit from abandoning bras."

There is also the comfort issue to account for, especially where an activity like jogging is concerned.

I've run with belly fat before. That was hardly comfortable. I can't imagine that any pair of breasts much over a B cup would be much better.

First of all, those women breastfeed for sometimes 15 years straight. No woman is gonna be perky after that at any age. Second, those women aren't 30. They're 45+. They live into their 60s, you know.

Dr. Chuckles said:
that's probably more due to constant pregnancy and breast feeding

Perhaps, but there are plenty of women in our own society who do that as well.

Bras might not be especially useful for an 18 or 25 year old. I'll grant you that much.

However, they can be legitimately useful for older women.

Koros · Feb 12, 2014

Am I the only one highly amused by the this entire conversation?

Sexism? Victim blaming? Violence against women? Who cares, there are boobs to talk about!

SmokeAndMirrors · Feb 12, 2014

Gathomas88 said:
First off, even your own study reports that this is inconclusive.

And that it likely doesn't hold true for the entirety of the female population.

There is also the comfort issue to account for, especially where an activity like jogging is concerned.

I've run with belly fat before. That was hardly comfortable. I can't imagine that any pair of breasts much over a B cup would be much better.

Perhaps, but there are plenty of women in our own society who do that as well.

Bras might not be especially useful for an 18 or 25 year old. I'll grant you that much.

However, they can be legitimately useful for older women.

99% of our population never breastfeed for more than a couple years. And of the few who do, I guarantee their boobs look the same under the bra. I've seen it myself on my grandmother. No difference. I've seen women who are twice my age and never regularly wore bras. They look fine.

If anything, it just focuses and intensifies back pain by putting all the strain on a smaller area. It doesn't support anything, as far as the anatomy is concerned, and it undoubtedly weakens the ligaments and muscles. It only supports cosmetically. For back support, you would actually be better served with a corset, although that still has problems obviously.

Your guts are full of gas, liquid, intestines, etc. Boobs are just fat and a bit if lymph fluid. It doesn't hurt.

Again, the idea that immobilizing muscles makes them stronger is just bizarre.

Gathomas88 · Feb 12, 2014

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Your guts are full of gas, liquid, intestines, etc. Boobs are just fat and a bit if lymph fluid. It doesn't hurt.

To be fair here, unless a person is obese, belly fat is the same thing.

It is loose fat on top of muscle, which just so happens to sway back and forth while running. I didn't like it.

Again, the idea that immobilizing muscles makes them stronger is just bizarre.

The breasts don't really have "muscles" in the first place. They have ligaments, which can't really be "exercised," and aren't even widely believed to be connected to sagging at all.

Cooper's Ligaments

Many women have held the mistaken belief that sagging is caused by the failure of the Cooper's ligaments to support the breast tissue. In fact, sagging is partly determined by genetic factors, but cigarette smoking, a woman's body mass index, her number of pregnancies, the size of her breasts before pregnancy, and age are all influencing factors

Dr. Christine Haycock, a respected surgeon at the New Jersey Medical School and an expert in sports medicine,[9] said that "Cooper's ligaments have nothing to do with supporting breast tissue... They just serve to divide the breast into compartments." She noted that most women's breasts begin to droop with age and that extremely large-breasted women are generally more affected. However, sagging is not related to ligaments or dependent on breast size.

Wearing a bra or not wearing a bra seems to be more or less irrelevant either way.

All I was saying is that I could see why most women would prefer bras for support, especially when doing moderate to high impact aerobic exercises.

It's basically the same principle as wearing shoes or sunglasses.

Are they necessary? Probably not.

However, they can still help in some regards. :shrug:

Provocative French Short Film Examines Sexism via Gender Role Reversal

Ben K.

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

Gathomas88

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

SmokeAndMirrors

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

Ben K.

Dr. Chuckles

King Conspiratard

Dr. Chuckles

King Conspiratard

Dr. Chuckles

King Conspiratard

Gathomas88

Dr. Chuckles

King Conspiratard

SmokeAndMirrors

Gathomas88

SmokeAndMirrors

Dr. Chuckles

King Conspiratard

Gathomas88

Koros

SmokeAndMirrors

Gathomas88