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Thread: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypersonic View Post
    This is the internet you don't have to take anyone seriously. You mentioned paternity leave...Seriously? I work at a hospital actually you know how much time off a man gets? A few months as oppose to 6 months a woman gets. What about custody battles? Most of the time its awarded to the woman despite the man being responsible. I had to testify on behalf of my college friend because his ex-wife tried to claim he was an unfit parent. She was still awarded Full custody because the judge felt that its in the best interest of the child to be with the mother "for the time being."

    As far as patriarchy harming men I believe we need to call it what it what it is white male privilege. On average white women make more than men of color still 2013. So um, where is this equality you are speaking of?
    I don't deny white privilege exists, and I already conceded that early feminism was geared toward upper middle class white women until women of color ensured their voices are heard. Who said the feminist movement was over or done? There is slow progress because people are resistant to changes to the status quo.

    Maternity leave is not paid, women must use their accumulated vacation time. It is up to companies to determine the lengths of time for paternity leave versus maternity leave, but I would be surprised if there is a vast difference in mens vs women's amount of time allotted.

    I will find you some statistics if you want, but overwhelmingly, custody is agreed to by parents most of the time in mediation before court hearings, so in most cases, the parents mutually agree to JOINT custody, then others agree to mom having custody. This is the parents' agreement, not the judges'. As far as in contested divorces where both parties cannot come to a consensus, judges have to pick which parent should have custody in the child's best interests. Those are decided individually, and although I know that it is still more often given to mom than dad statistically, I have trouble believing that it is automatically granted to mom. I also think that is gradually changing since there are more and more men seeking and being awarded custody. The system isn't perfect, and there are many working toward breaking down gender roles and biases about women being "better suited" to be primary caretakers, since that's not true. Men are perfectly capable of taking care of their children.

    I'd like to see the statistics of white women making more than men of color, just for my own edification, I am pretty sure men of color still make more than women, in general, even though there is a pay gap between white men and men of color. There is also a general problem with the difference between the white middle class and black middle class that shows that white privilege very much holds sway.

    I just think that it's silly to throw the "baby out with the bathwater" so to speak by saying feminism has done nothing just because it still has work to do.
    ôRe-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul--Walt Whitman"

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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypersonic View Post
    My argument is the humanist perspective. I believe equality does not exist, and we live in a society that is constructed off certain principles by those who felt it was necessary. Feminism does not solve certain social issues like racism and poverty. For example I mentioned Angela Davis who speaks at UCLA. I took a class of hers and I recall her stating:

    "The state of the black family is the result of centuries old institutional mindset black men have adopted due to white male patriarchy since the 1600's."

    What does a feminist know growing up in Compton or Watts California? Nothing except self proclaim feminists who are people of color. As a man, well, as a black man I saw no benefit of feminism when I was born, nor at my place of work, nor my college. I remember taking a woman's studies course in undergrad and surely everything is a man's fault. Forget the fact that women are autonomous beings rather women are automatons and that all men have women on puppet strings.

    Just as black nationalism was beneficial to blacks in the civil rights era so too was feminism even though it benefitted white women than anybody else. I believe any philosophy that tries to benefit one group above all is not an inherently noble cause. If femenism is the betterment of women it must in unison, address all societal ills. Feminism does not. During the civil rights era did feminist come out to argue against Jim Crow laws or Emmitt Till or lynchings, or colored water fountains? No.


    Did feminist protest against to allow male journalist to interview female athletes in changing rooms? No. Do feminist argue about judicial bias that benefits women? No. Want to know what should outrage feminist? Google the football player (I forgot his name) that was released from prison who was falsely accused of rape. He attended Long Beach Poly. He now plays for the Atlanta Falcons. Since rape statistically effects more women than men you would think a woman's rights group would show support for this man. But no. I don't need to look at hardcore feminists, I look at the real world.
    I think that you are really looking at a segment of things to make these accusations rather than looking at a bigger picture. We have a lot of societal ills, poverty, racism, sexism, etc. All of these things are further institutionalized and generational. So there is no one answer for everything. When people create a movement, they often address their own needs first, because they are in a unique position to speak to their own plight. It often takes time and diversity in a movement for it to realize how it can benefit others.

    I didn't deny once that early feminists left out people of color. Since the movement originally started with white upper middle class women, but since, they have grown and progressed to include women of color, LGBT, and other marginalized groups. What I keep saying is that like with many movements, it has grown and progressed.

    I consider myself a feminist and am a biracial woman. I would challenge you to look into more current forms of feminism that have moved away from the exclusion of people of color, because women of color spoke up. There is more and more focus on intersectionality and addressing the needs of more people and moving to inclusion versus exclusion.

    I'm curious what you mean about "judicial bias"?

    What kind of support are you suggesting that feminists should be showing to the innocent from Long Beach Poly? Has he been bashed by feminists?
    ôRe-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul--Walt Whitman"

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    Advisor douglas's Avatar
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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    Personally, I feel that the feminist movement needs to address sexuality more. I'm a man, I think about sex alot. I bet women would too, or atleast acknowledge it, if society didn't deem this unusual. This has caused a horrible imbalance between the sexes. Men are told that sexual conquest is the norm, and most men revolve their romances around having sex. Women seem to be told to reject sexuality, and believe in the "true love" side of romance. Although there are plenty of different kinds of romances, the ideal seems to be a little bit in-between the two. In my own personal dating experience, I've found women who expect me to be prince charming, a superhero, a sugardaddy, and allround lumberjack; but also caring, celibate, and essentially a woman. I'm not certain of how much we should blame modern feminism for this phenomena, but men are reporting from all over the USA that they are being expected to hold both gender roles of the romance, and simultaneously. I have nothing against macho men, or girly men, whatever floats your boat. But, how are we supposed to be both?

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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Personally, I feel that the feminist movement needs to address sexuality more. I'm a man, I think about sex alot. I bet women would too, or atleast acknowledge it, if society didn't deem this unusual. This has caused a horrible imbalance between the sexes. Men are told that sexual conquest is the norm, and most men revolve their romances around having sex. Women seem to be told to reject sexuality, and believe in the "true love" side of romance. Although there are plenty of different kinds of romances, the ideal seems to be a little bit in-between the two. In my own personal dating experience, I've found women who expect me to be prince charming, a superhero, a sugardaddy, and allround lumberjack; but also caring, celibate, and essentially a woman. I'm not certain of how much we should blame modern feminism for this phenomena, but men are reporting from all over the USA that they are being expected to hold both gender roles of the romance, and simultaneously. I have nothing against macho men, or girly men, whatever floats your boat. But, how are we supposed to be both?
    Generally, there is a growing concern about "hypermasculinity" that is prevalent in our culture, glamorized by mostly commercials and other media. There are many feminist groups that have spoken out against these things. There are also a growing number of men who are working to redefine what "being a man" means. A large part of what most feminists want is to do away with gender roles completely. There is no expectation of your behavior as a man or as a woman, instead an expectation that each express their gender as they feel most comfortable.
    ôRe-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul--Walt Whitman"

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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    I think it's all crap. Men should do what makes them happy, women should do what makes them happy, and they both should shut the hell up about a whole lot of crap.

    There's my sex-based philosophy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86
    Seems unlikely in Kanas
    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86
    Spent enough time in the US to understand that Kanas...

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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    Quote Originally Posted by SassySmartie View Post
    I think that you are really looking at a segment of things to make these accusations rather than looking at a bigger picture. We have a lot of societal ills, poverty, racism, sexism, etc. All of these things are further institutionalized and generational. So there is no one answer for everything. When people create a movement, they often address their own needs first, because they are in a unique position to speak to their own plight. It often takes time and diversity in a movement for it to realize how it can benefit others.

    I didn't deny once that early feminists left out people of color. Since the movement originally started with white upper middle class women, but since, they have grown and progressed to include women of color, LGBT, and other marginalized groups. What I keep saying is that like with many movements, it has grown and progressed.

    I consider myself a feminist and am a biracial woman. I would challenge you to look into more current forms of feminism that have moved away from the exclusion of people of color, because women of color spoke up. There is more and more focus on intersectionality and addressing the needs of more people and moving to inclusion versus exclusion.

    I'm curious what you mean about "judicial bias"?

    What kind of support are you suggesting that feminists should be showing to the innocent from Long Beach Poly? Has he been bashed by feminists?

    My apologies for being late. To address your last paragraph by "judicial bias" I am referring to the problems of child support and custody. This is why there are men's groups that were created which seems to be the result at some unfairness in the court system regarding custody. For one, in order to gain custody of the child men often have to demonstrate whether the mother is an unfit parent. This process is very strenuous and lengthy in which many men give up. It seems nine times out of ten, especially in divorce proceedings women are often guranteed custody save if the woman is known to be unfit, an addict of some sort or otherwise. Another example would be paternity issues. There are women who have had men pay for child support for years and after so long and DNS test later, the man finds out its not biologically his, the state recoups the money not the man. It seems these elements in our judicial system favors women heavily.


    With respect to the Long Beach Poly situation I mentioned feminist coming out because women's groups need to come to the defense of men against women who use rape and their sexuality to exploit others at their expense. There have been men whose lives have been ruined. To this day even though this football player was exonerated he has to wait a whole year until his record is expunged. That means he is still considered a felon.

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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypersonic View Post
    First and foremost I would like to add that I am personally against feminism due to the idea that feminism does not universally address the problems of all women (hence the notion of Black Feminist, Muslim Feminist etc), rather I believe the women's suffrage movement was more appropriately in addressing the sexism portrayed by white patriarchy in its time of development. According to some feminist, feminist philosophy is about equality and about challenging patriarchy, however despite this noble cause, feminism does not challenge notions of social biases towards women such as child support (which displays a clear bias towards women)
    I would say that it takes two to make a baby. It is completely "fair" for the other partner who helped create the life pay to help support that life. The money isn't supposed to go to support the mother of the child. Child support is for the CHILD. So I completely disagree with your opinions about child support. It is completely necessary.

    journalism (male reporters are barred from entering the locker rooms of female athletes, but women aren't), and societal depictions of female frailty (men shouldn't hit women, but men are expected to take assaults from women).
    I agree with this point. I also don't think women should be in the men's locker room and vice versa. I think that is inappropriate. I don't see why journalists have to go into the locker room at all.

    I've even seen some hardcore feminist (most notably Catherine Mackinnon) assert that softcore pronography objectifies women, and that male objectification is not objectification because pornography is about enticing men and satisfying patriarchy
    Meh, I don't know if I agree with that point. I think it depends upon the person and why they are viewing it.

    I would like any self-acclaimed feminist if they would, address some societal double standards that feminism does not address?
    Well, I wouldn't really call myself a "feminist" but I am a woman who does believe in equal rights.

    I wonder why you didn't address the differences in pay rates between men and women. Men still get paid more a lot of times for doing the same job as a woman. That is more concerning to me than any of the points you made above.

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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I would say that it takes two to make a baby. It is completely "fair" for the other partner who helped create the life pay to help support that life. The money isn't supposed to go to support the mother of the child. Child support is for the CHILD. So I completely disagree with your opinions about child support. It is completely necessary.
    Child support is necessary but there is no oversight into if in fact that it is being spent on child support as opposed to the lifestyle of the woman. There have been many cases where friends of mine have complained about their ex spending the money on themselves as opposed to the children. The judge in these circumstances put the burden of proof upon these men to demonstrate whether there is neglect. If the mother is doing the basics then of course there would be no further inquiry. There have been cases where the woman has asked for more money all because she wants to maintain the upkeep of her lifestyle.

  9. #39
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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    I've had the hardest time trying to post this - the server keeps hanging up or my net keeps bottoming out. By now it's all repeated points, I'm sure. I'm stubborn and don't care. LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypersonic View Post
    First and foremost I would like to add that I am personally against feminism due to the idea that feminism does not universally address the problems of all women (hence the notion of Black Feminist, Muslim Feminist etc), rather I believe the women's suffrage movement was more appropriately in addressing the sexism portrayed by white patriarchy in its time of development.
    I don't believe you oppose feminism:

    Do you believe that a man/woman who work the same exact job with similar employment history/credentials should receive the same pay?
    Right to vote?
    Right to attend college (or choose not to) for whatever degree said individual desires?
    Career can be what one chooses?
    Parenting is optional?
    In regard to parenting - is it up to her to decide if she's going to parent at all while being stay at home mother / married / single / employed?
    Right to own property (vehicles, land, etc).
    Right to own/run one's own business venture?
    Birth control (in general - not talking specifics of R40 vs R10 or something like that) - but in general, should birth control be legal? (because at one point in our history - it was 100% illegal, even condoms)

    So on - so forth. These are the core elements of feminism in general. If you oppose any of these - then you oppose feminism in some sense. I doubt this applies to you. In fact - it doesn't apply to the average US citizen these days.

    Also, if you took the time to learn about the history of feminism and racism - you'll realize that racism was never a blanket issue that all white people (or white women as you claim it applies) believed in or held onto. NOT EVERYONE was racist. To claim that it ignored minorities shows misinformation and false conclusions. It also shows that you don't fully understand the other things that DID affect women of minority in various parts of the country.

    I think that studying such things would be very educational for you.

    According to some feminist, feminist philosophy is about equality and about challenging patriarchy,
    Studying all the many different 'views' of feminism - you'll see the things I mentioned above in the list are a standard that - no matter how nitty gritty, or simple, someone's views are - they still hold belief in these as a standard . . . and we deviate on all other things.

    I agree to disagree with some of these more specific and less important issues that you raise (aka - the following)

    feminism does not challenge notions of social biases towards women such as child support (which displays a clear bias towards women),
    How exactly does it display a bias? I see bias in the default of giving custody (which is leaning away from the gender-standard of believing that women are always best for the child to be with)

    journalism (male reporters are barred from entering the locker rooms of female athletes, but women aren't),
    There's no reason for them to be THERE at all. . . so I disagree with permitting them in (if they really are - I don't keep up with sports enough to know)
    So I agree to disagree with them on this - and wonder just how on earth it might have come about. But I don't care enough to research it.

    and societal depictions of female frailty (men shouldn't hit women, but men are expected to take assaults from women).
    I'm unfamiliar with this idea that it's ok for women to hit men as I don't support anyone going around smacking the other to begin with. However, men often encourage each other to tolerate more physical affronts and are less likely to report, take action, or take deep, personal offense in such situations. Women (not all - a generalized term, here) still cling to some views and men still cling to other views.

    I classify this as a more serious concern because i just oppose violence as a solution or outlet of emotion aside organized sports.

    The 'men shouldn't hit women' irritates me in particular because it just fosters females who look at their self as being incapable and less able no matter what - and thusly, self centered and conceited, stuck up, and rude.

    Who fosters this more, though? Men - or women?

    I started a related thread several months back - and men were more than likely to stand up and say 'yes, I hold to gender-biased views and I prefer it that way'

    I've even seen some hardcore feminist (most notably Catherine Mackinnon) assert that softcore pronography objectifies women, and that male objectification is not objectification because pornography is about enticing men and satisfying patriarchy
    Well she's a moron - I dig porn and I write erotica. . . and the majority of romance/erotica readers ARE female - though men indulge often, as well. Thus - I disagree with her on that. Porn isn't JUST for men . . . obviously she's assuming that all women look at porn the same way she does: assumptions are dangerous beasts.

    Women like her I label as 'Femi-nazis' and they offend me because they assert their opinion and claim 'all women feel ___' or 'all women are ___' . . . Which I spite more than anything.

    I would like any self-acclaimed feminist if they would, address some societal double standards that feminism does not address?
    All of the things I could think of were small, minor - things like dating etiquette and such. The more important things (what I've mentioned) are taking a more balanced-stage these days and those are the things I'm more concerned with overall.

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    Re: Is there an oversight by feminist upon societal bias towards female sexuality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypersonic View Post
    First and foremost I would like to add that I am personally against feminism due to the idea that feminism does not universally address the problems of all women (hence the notion of Black Feminist, Muslim Feminist etc), rather I believe the women's suffrage movement was more appropriately in addressing the sexism portrayed by white patriarchy in its time of development. According to some feminist, feminist philosophy is about equality and about challenging patriarchy, however despite this noble cause, feminism does not challenge notions of social biases towards women such as child support (which displays a clear bias towards women), journalism (male reporters are barred from entering the locker rooms of female athletes, but women aren't), and societal depictions of female frailty (men shouldn't hit women, but men are expected to take assaults from women). I've even seen some hardcore feminist (most notably Catherine Mackinnon) assert that softcore pronography objectifies women, and that male objectification is not objectification because pornography is about enticing men and satisfying patriarchy

    I would like any self-acclaimed feminist if they would, address some societal double standards that feminism does not address?
    I suggest you consider the core idea of the movement. Equality of opportunity. The movement may vary in its priorities from group to group but the core idea remains the same. The trunk, if you will, remains the same and the branches adapt to the weather. As for the "double standards" you point out.

    1. Child Support; what exactly is your point here? That women "always" get child support regardless of the fathers income? As a divorced woman who was earning a very comfortable income I can tell you, the father of my children contributed according to his means and he should have. You wanna play you gotta pay man or woman.

    2. Locker Rooms: Seriously?? We both know that men and women are very different when it comes to their sexuality.

    3. Our frailty: You have to stay within the boundaries of reality. Men, generally speaking, have greater physical strength then women. You wouldn't strike a child would you? It's the same principal.

    4. The pornography thing I might let you slide on. If you do pornography you are objectifying yourself and we can't argue that. Women are objectified through many other mediums however, magazines, movies, advertising. Men like women, and that's wonderful and no woman minds being admired. The problem is when men see ONLY that and do not step back and remember there is a person attached to that awesome rack or those hot legs. When men loose site of that it is easy to see the whole person as just the rack or just the legs. That's objectification.

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