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Homosexuality Is A Birth Defect

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Ontologuy

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There was a time in human history when homosexuality, a roughly 2% occurrence, was perceived by the vast majority, heterosexuals, as a conscious choice, and thus, because of homosexuality's attendant deviant behavior, it was considered a moral failure. The punishment for such moral failure was to be stoned to death, as prescribed by certain religions.

Creating a government that separated church and state helped to put that barbaric penalization behavior behind most of humanity.

So heterosexuals, mostly under religious direction, then began counseling homosexuals to surrender their deviant practices, to choose heterosexuality, even resorting to religious sponsored "deprogramming". This was largely a failure, much to the puzzlement of those heterosexual counselors.

However, it wasn't until after the middle of the twentieth century that a number of studies were conducted that validated the growing speculation that homosexuality wasn't a conscious choice, but, though obviously aberrant, was an intrinsic neuropsychological compulsion for homosexuals, like heterosexuality is for heterosexuals.

Initially it was then speculated that sexually attracted-to orientation was inculcated unconsciously in family of origin during the first four years of life when the brain is still forming and in response to specific idiosyncratic reactions of the child to specific parental dynamics/behaviors that psychologists thought were identifiable and could be categorized and analyzed to predict the likelihood of homosexuality.

I was one of those who pursued analysis of that theory, which I thought held promise. However, like most, I found it nearly impossible to differentiate between environmental causation and genetic causation, as the two seemed to emulate each other, and were difficult to distinguish.

But, in absence of a "gay gene", this was still the best explanation for the aberration of homosexuality.

Meanwhile, investigation into the cause of the abnormality of transsexuality lead to understandable supposition that transsexuality's cousin, homosexuality, would have a similar cause.

It was discovered that, during gestation, two hormonal "blasts" occur, one that determines physical sexual characteristics (genitals, etc.) and one that determines neuropsychological sexual characteristics (self-identity gender, attracted-to gender, etc.). In normal function, these hormone blasts create a physiological and neuropsychological heterosexual person, where the physical sexuality matches the self-identity gender and the person's attracted-to gender is that of the opposite sex. However, when a dysfunction occurs in the hormonal blasts, on rare occasion, between 0.2 to 0.4 percent of the time, the result is a transsexual person, someone whose physical sexual characteristics are at defective cross-purposes with their neuropsychological self-identity gender and sometimes also with their attracted-to gender.

The supposition with respect to homosexuality is that roughly 2.0 percent of the time the dysfunction in the hormonal blasts doesn't as much adversely affect the self-identity gender but greatly adversely affects the attracted-to gender to cause it to be at defective cross-purposes with the person's physical sexual characteristics.

But the precise cause of the hormonal dysfunctional was a mystery. There didn't appear to be a specific gene to account for the anomaly. Nor could environmental causes in and of themselves be pinpointed.

Enter epigenetics: What is epigenetics? | Laboratory News
Epigenetics is a relatively new area of research that is currently attracting a high level of interest. The term epigenetics describes heritable changes in genome function that occur without a change in the DNA nucleotide sequence. The basis of epigenetics lies in the control of gene expression.

Epigenetics now accounts for what was previously speculated to be just genetic:
The existence of epigenetic mechanisms is not a new discovery. For many years, certain examples of non-Mendelian inheritance have been attributed to epigenetic events, such as position effect variegation in Drosophila. In this instance, expression of an eye colour gene is prevented when a chromosomal rearrangement moves the gene near to an area of heterochromatin, resulting in a variegated eye colour phenotype.

From a topically relevant perspective, epigenetic activity during gestation is now realized as the cause of many defect abnormalities:
Today [April 2006], scientists are uncovering evidence suggesting that epigenetic mechanisms, very different to those that occur in the Drosophila example, are key to a diverse range of biological processes in mammals. Interest in the subject has been raised further as new data emerges showing that epigenetic dysfunction plays a central role in the cause of many human diseases including cancer and birth defects.

Indeed, today [2013] we have confirmed this role of epigenetics, and epigenetic modifications have resulted in reducing the incidence of the birth defect of spina bifida, for one: http://www.elsevierdirect.com/companions/9780123749475/boxes/Chapter_041.pdf
In ongoing research, evidence for epigenetic factors at all three levels mentioned above has been found in Alzheimer’s disease (Coppede & Migliore, 2010) and in a variety of developmental diseases involving epilepsy in humans, mental retardation, X-linked syndromes, particularly fragile X syndrome, and thalassemia (Qureshi & Mehler, 2010c). ... Dietary supplements of B6, B12 and folate to raise methionine levels and DNA methylation have dramatically reduced the incidence of spina bifida ...

Clearly, functions occurring during gestation that are epigenetically regulated can go awry, creating birth defects.

Today, the dysfunction in the epigenetic mechanism is considered to be at the root of the birth defect of transsexuality.

But, is the same true for transsexuality's apparent cousin homosexuality?

Based on recent research, the answer appears to be yes.

Here's an article on a recent scientific discovery about the role of epigenetics in the birth defect of homosexuality: Scientists May Have Finally Unlocked Puzzle of Why People Are Gay - US News and World Report
Scientists from the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis say homosexuality seems to have an epigenetic, not a genetic link. ... passed from father-to-daughter or mother-to-son, explains William Rice, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California Santa Barbara and lead author of the study.

And here's another reference to this mathematical/biological model implicating epi-marks in the birth defect of homosexuality with respect to the hormonal blasts' effect: Epigenetics Is A Critical Factor In Homosexuality
Sex-specific epi-marks are made during early fetal development and serve as security against the considerable natural variation in testosterone that happens in late fetal development. For example, sex-specific epi-marks prevent female fetuses from becoming masculine when there are unusually high testosterone levels present, and vice versa for male fetuses.

These epi-marks are supposed to guide normal development of physiological sex, self-identity gender, and attracted-to gender:
Different kinds of epi-marks safeguard different sex-specific characteristics; some protect the genitals, others protect sexual identity, and this study suggests others keep safe sexual partner preference.

But when they are abnormally passed, like from father to daughter or mother to son, an aberration occurs that can create a defective mismatch of these three that causes homosexuality:
When these epi-marks are passed between generations from fathers to daughters or mothers to sons, they have the potential to result in reverse effects. The outcome is feminization of characteristics in sons or masculinization of some characteristics in daughters, occasionally affecting sexual preference.

Or more simply put: Evolution Of Homosexuality Epigenetics - Business Insider
So, the theory goes that a woman possesses epigenetic traits that made her react to hormones in a typically "female way" — and if they were to pass to her son they could potentially interfere with his normal male development by making his genes react to hormones the way a female's genes would. The same goes for a man passing on his epigenetic traits to his daughter, which would expose her to testosterone in a "male way."

So, the researcher's theory goes that these epigenetic modifications would be useful to the parent, and only infrequently make their way to the second generation and cause "abnormal" fetal development — so they would still be useful evolutionarily.

Environmental factors could influence epigenetics, and frequently do, so they also play a role in when or how often these epi-marks get passed on.
So these epigenetic markers are valuable to the parents in protecting them as adults from over-exposure to the opposite-sex defining hormone, but when these epi-marks are dysfunctionally passed to the developing prenatal child, the defect of homosexuality can occur prior to birth.

The challenge now is to find a way to keep these markers for the parents but prevent opposite-sex passing to the offspring, a defect-causing situation that now occurs roughly 2 percent of the time.

Birth defects, such as spina bifida, transsexuality, cleft palate, homosexuality, etc., occur in a surprisingly high six percent of births worldwide, and scientists now believe that limiting exposure to certain environmental chemicals, ingestions, inhalants, etc. can reduce the incidence of birth defects by inhibiting the dysfunction-creating epi-marks from passing: Nutrition, Epigenetics and Complex Birth Defects -- Finnell 24 (1): 401.3 -- The FASEB Journal

Today, scientists are spreading the word: Understanding the Epigenetics of Birth Defects : Denver Museum of Nature & Science

Indeed, soon there will be supplements prescribed for women during gestation to prevent sexuality related defect-causing aberrations from occurring, just like taking high doses of folate when pregnant greatly reduces the epigenetic dysfunction from occurring that causes spina bifida.

Most all transsexuals support research into finding a cure for the birth defect of transsexuality.

But a challenge in funding research to find a cure for homosexuality is that homosexuality has been greatly politicized by ideologues, both left and right, who will irrationally oppose both the recent scientific findings and subsequent remedial action.

Ideologues on the right will insist the research is faulty "once again" and that homosexuality is a conscious choice, so they'll be adverse to supporting funding for a cure, though there will be rather strange exceptions: Bryan Fischer: Homosexuality May Be A 'Birth Defect' That Could Lead Parents To Abort Children

Ideologues on the left, though they'll accurately deny homosexuality is a conscious choice, will suddenly stop there and feign dumbness that homosexuality isn't the obvious birth defect that it is, in fear that the obviously accurate status of "birth defect" will reduce support for political agendas championed by the left wing.

Regardless, the obvious defect-nature of both transsexuality and its scientifically obvious etiological cousin homosexuality will spur scientists dedicated to fighting birth defects to explore ways to prevent the epigenetic dysfunction that causes these defects.

Hopefully ideologues on both wings of the political spectrum will just get out of the way and let birth defect-fighting science and our species progress.
 
Don't trust anything aside from the primary research. What genes are candidates for this? What kind of epigenetic modification occurred? Methylation? This is all speculation, and it's not rational given what we know to say all cases of homosexuality are some form of birth defect.

It is not scientifically rational to make a definitive conclusion based on speculation.
 
I'm not sure if eliminating diversity will allow our species to progress. There are examples in history where homosexuality benefited science/art by making certain scientists/artists more prone to societal ostracism, which would allow them to focus more heavily on their work. It also can have certain benefits as a defect, homosexual uncles statistically spend more time with nieces/nephews than heterosexual uncles, and are therefore more beneficial to their siblings than a heterosexual uncle would be. Also offered is providing companionship to the opposite gender without sexual attractions deluding it, which almost always occurs when a heterosexual male/female tries to form friendship bonds with a member of the opposite gender. These things aside, your post was very articulate and formulated both valid and interesting points, a find job.
 
Don't trust anything aside from the primary research. What genes are candidates for this? What kind of epigenetic modification occurred? Methylation? This is all speculation, and it's not rational given what we know to say all cases of homosexuality are some form of birth defect.

It is not scientifically rational to make a definitive conclusion based on speculation.
That, and epigenetics itself hasn't been validated using the scientific method. It may be coincidence, but I have yet to see epigenetics mentioned in any major scientific journals, and it also seems to greatly contradict the long-term changes offered by traditional genetics as portrayed by Darwinistic evolution.
 
That, and epigenetics itself hasn't been validated using the scientific method. It may be coincidence, but I have yet to see epigenetics mentioned in any major scientific journals, and it also seems to greatly contradict the long-term changes offered by traditional genetics as portrayed by Darwinistic evolution.

Epigenetics is validated. We know that genes are epigenetically regulated. I've performed lab experiments and detections of epigenetic modifications firsthand. Epigenetics is still relatively new as far as researching extensively into it goes, but it is valid. Genes are epigenetically regulated and it occurs very frequently.
 
Other than the fact that Ontologuy has shown, repeatedly, that he does not understand the subject material regarding sexual orientation, there are several problems with his idiotic hypothesis. Firstly, he comes from a position of confirmation bias; he presents as homosexuality is a defect. This has been proven incorrect, is well researched, and well accepted for at least 40 years.

Secondly, he omits the fact that the study of the causes of sexual orientation are not singular. The causes of heterosexuality and homosexuality are both being explored and are on equal footing from a findings standpoint; we don't know what causes heterosexuality any more than we know what causes homosexuality. Researchers postulate that it mostly has to do with a combination of factors: genetic, biological/hormonal, and environmental.

Thirdly, the hormonal "blasts" that he talks about have nothing to do with sexual orientation. They have to do with transsexuality, something that I have documented quite often at DP. Onologuy transposes this information for his anti-gay agenda, but these "blasts" have little to do with sexual orientation. They have to do with gender identity, a completely different issue.


As usual, when Ontologuy posts his garbage, he gets it all wrong. I implore you to do what I do when I see it. Mock it, debunk it, and ignore it. It's worthless information that he creates to further his agenda. It has neither validity nor credibility.
 
I would rather see these researchers focus on more problematic birth defects like Down's Syndrome or autism myself.
 
I'm not sure if eliminating diversity will allow our species to progress. There are examples in history where homosexuality benefited science/art by making certain scientists/artists more prone to societal ostracism, which would allow them to focus more heavily on their work. It also can have certain benefits as a defect, homosexual uncles statistically spend more time with nieces/nephews than heterosexual uncles, and are therefore more beneficial to their siblings than a heterosexual uncle would be. Also offered is providing companionship to the opposite gender without sexual attractions deluding it, which almost always occurs when a heterosexual male/female tries to form friendship bonds with a member of the opposite gender. These things aside, your post was very articulate and formulated both valid and interesting points, a find job.
Yes, whenever a birth defect involves neuropsychological aspects, curing that birth defect may have unintended consequences.

I recall a "60 Minutes" episode some twenty years ago or so that presented three people suffering a general compromise of their mental faculties from birth and a resultant very low IQ, but part of their mind was simply gifted, one able to play like a virtuoso on the piano despite being blind, one who could sculpt animal statues of incredible realism, and one who could recall the weather for every day he was alive from childhood by someone just giving him the specific date.

Whether it's savantism, autism, and the like, if parents are given an option to take a pill to prevent these birth defects, they'll likely choose to take them despite the gifts that may be lost.

Historically, we've learned to adapt to our progress, and compensate for these such unintended consequential losses by specifically seeking alternatives to the loss.

But indeed, it's all rather interesting.
 
I would rather see these researchers focus on more problematic birth defects like Down's Syndrome or autism myself.

This would be appropriate since there is no defect here. It's a difference like lefthandedness or blue eyes.
 
Yes, whenever a birth defect involves neuropsychological aspects, curing that birth defect may have unintended consequences.

I recall a "60 Minutes" episode some twenty years ago or so that presented three people suffering a general compromise of their mental faculties from birth and a resultant very low IQ, but part of their mind was simply gifted, one able to play like a virtuoso on the piano despite being blind, one who could sculpt animal statues of incredible realism, and one who could recall the weather for every day he was alive from childhood by someone just giving him the specific date.

Whether it's savantism, autism, and the like, if parents are given an option to take a pill to prevent these birth defects, they'll likely choose to take them despite the gifts that may be lost.

Historically, we've learned to adapt to our progress, and compensate for these such unintended consequential losses by specifically seeking alternatives to the loss.

But indeed, it's all rather interesting.


You think gay people are afraid of abortion, I sense..................... When you're already in Hell, Hell v. 2.01 is irrelevant.......................
 
The OP seems like a great deal of biased opinion with little if any research behind it.

10% of the population is left handed, it that a birth defect?

How about gluten allergies?

Perhaps the less biased word we are looking for is mutation, like lactose tolerance. Or perhaps genetic variation like left handedness. Something that occurs through out our species and the ages but as a stable, small percent.

Maybe terminal closemindedness is the birth defect.
 
This would be appropriate since there is no defect here. It's a difference like lefthandedness or blue eyes.
As I said: http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/160480-homosexuality-birth-defect.html#post1061800678
Ideologues on the left, though they'll accurately deny homosexuality is a conscious choice, will suddenly stop there and feign dumbness that homosexuality isn't the obvious birth defect that it is, in fear that the obviously accurate status of "birth defect" will reduce support for political agendas championed by the left wing.

:roll:
 

Your agenda is the issue here. This idiotic position of yours has been skewered so many times here at DP, I've lost count. It has no credibility and, as I have shown, both your premise and all your "research" is faulty and inaccurate. You desperately try to present your anti-gay agenda with absolutely no valid information behind it.

Face it Ontologuy. ANYONE who reads the crap that you post knows that it's inaccurate. I've proven it more time than I can count. You are an anti-gay ideologue who has no valid information that supports your position. This is why you run scared from every thread where I confront you.
 
oh good lord another post that was failure even before it was completed. This is going to end the same as all your posts that are full of misinformation, opinions pushed as fact and lies always do. It will get laughed at and destroyed. :shrug:

if you want credibility or anybody to think more of your posts then the total jokefest they are its probably time to find a new message board. And just some advice, Dont discuss this topic or abortion because then youll be in the same boat of ZERO credibility once again.

Feel free to let us know when you do have something sound though!
 
Other than the fact that Ontologuy has shown, repeatedly, that he does not understand the subject material regarding sexual orientation, there are several problems with his idiotic hypothesis. Firstly, he comes from a position of confirmation bias; he presents as homosexuality is a defect. This has been proven incorrect, is well researched, and well accepted for at least 40 years.

While I have to look more into what he is saying I'm not convinced that Ontologuy is posting from a position of confirmation bias. Actually if anything I'd put his thread title slightly into the trolling category. With Digsbe seemingly in a similar field acknowledging the field that Ontologuy is describing, that is lending a little more credit towards Ontologuy.

While I am perfectly willing to say that most gender or sexual orientation/identity is naturally occurring (i.e. not due to post birth stimuli), I am also willing to call it a defect. That is not to say that such a defect is a detrimental issue. If left-handedness is caused by a recessive gene, then I would think that ambidexterity would be a defect since it not a product of either the recessive not the dominant gene. The gist of what I read (some of it way above my pay grade) seemed to move in the line of "yes it's a defect. No it's not a problem to be solved". YMMV, but that's what I got out of it.
 
While I have to look more into what he is saying I'm not convinced that Ontologuy is posting from a position of confirmation bias. Actually if anything I'd put his thread title slightly into the trolling category. With Digsbe seemingly in a similar field acknowledging the field that Ontologuy is describing, that is lending a little more credit towards Ontologuy.

While I am perfectly willing to say that most gender or sexual orientation/identity is naturally occurring (i.e. not due to post birth stimuli), I am also willing to call it a defect. That is not to say that such a defect is a detrimental issue. If left-handedness is caused by a recessive gene, then I would think that ambidexterity would be a defect since it not a product of either the recessive not the dominant gene. The gist of what I read (some of it way above my pay grade) seemed to move in the line of "yes it's a defect. No it's not a problem to be solved". YMMV, but that's what I got out of it.

He is trolling because he's made the same exact thread not too long ago, and using digsbe as reference on this subject is not the best validity check. He is totally convinced that sexuality can be 'overcome' by simple willpower. They both have an agenda and I'm not playing this game again.
 
While I have to look more into what he is saying I'm not convinced that Ontologuy is posting from a position of confirmation bias. Actually if anything I'd put his thread title slightly into the trolling category. With Digsbe seemingly in a similar field acknowledging the field that Ontologuy is describing, that is lending a little more credit towards Ontologuy.

While I am perfectly willing to say that most gender or sexual orientation/identity is naturally occurring (i.e. not due to post birth stimuli), I am also willing to call it a defect. That is not to say that such a defect is a detrimental issue. If left-handedness is caused by a recessive gene, then I would think that ambidexterity would be a defect since it not a product of either the recessive not the dominant gene. The gist of what I read (some of it way above my pay grade) seemed to move in the line of "yes it's a defect. No it's not a problem to be solved". YMMV, but that's what I got out of it.



You may be 100% correct. Why didn't "you" people realize that millenia ago and what exactly is wrong with "you" that "you" didn't ?..................
 
The only thing we can call it right now is a phenomenon, or an anomaly. It can't be a birth defect because defect is defined as an imperfection that impairs worth or utility. Merriam-Webster Search for iPhone
Since the worth of a person isn't measured by how many children they create or the utility of the person isn't simply to make babies then defect doesn't fit.

So all we can call it is an anomaly. From a scientific standpoint that is.
 
While I have to look more into what he is saying I'm not convinced that Ontologuy is posting from a position of confirmation bias. Actually if anything I'd put his thread title slightly into the trolling category. With Digsbe seemingly in a similar field acknowledging the field that Ontologuy is describing, that is lending a little more credit towards Ontologuy.

Digs' comments refute Ontologuy's position. I've seen Ontologuy post. It's confirmation bias. He looks for research and then skews it towards his position, even though it generally doesn't support it.

While I am perfectly willing to say that most gender or sexual orientation/identity is naturally occurring (i.e. not due to post birth stimuli), I am also willing to call it a defect. That is not to say that such a defect is a detrimental issue. If left-handedness is caused by a recessive gene, then I would think that ambidexterity would be a defect since it not a product of either the recessive not the dominant gene. The gist of what I read (some of it way above my pay grade) seemed to move in the line of "yes it's a defect. No it's not a problem to be solved". YMMV, but that's what I got out of it.

No, he claims that it is a problem to be solved. He offers no actual evidence that it is a defect and his argument is flawed from both an informational and a logical standpoint. The formation of sexual orientation is what is studied by researchers. Further, research demonstrates that homosexuality is not a problem. His argument has more holes in it than a piece of swiss cheese.
 
Your agenda is the issue here. This idiotic position of yours has been skewered so many times here at DP, I've lost count. It has no credibility and, as I have shown, both your premise and all your "research" is faulty and inaccurate. You desperately try to present your anti-gay agenda with absolutely no valid information behind it.

Face it Ontologuy. ANYONE who reads the crap that you post knows that it's inaccurate. I've proven it more time than I can count. You are an anti-gay ideologue who has no valid information that supports your position. This is why you run scared from every thread where I confront you.
The only thing you've ever "shown" here is this: http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/160480-homosexuality-birth-defect-2.html#post1061800823

You criticize without providing scientific refutation.

You trollingly violate the spirit of forum rules by stalking my every accurate post on the topic in whatever thread I present it, leveling ad hominems against me every time (all which you "surprisingly" get away with. :roll:), evidencing that it's you who obviously gets frightened by the accurate scientific presentations I make .

Thus, clearly, the only one running scared here is you -- scared of the scientific truth.

Normally I just ignore you and don't respond to your antics, as they're meaningless, obviously, and, I don't want to get unjustifiably thread-banned again.

But, since I've said everything that needs to be said in the OP, which I will reference now whenever I wish in other threads, I'll take the considerable risk here and simply call a spade a spade .. and ignore you from here on in until you can post with true courtesy befitting your I.D. and with scientific topical relevance befitting the topic, instead of your usual mere ranting ad hominems.
 
Digs' comments refute Ontologuy's position. I've seen Ontologuy post. It's confirmation bias. He looks for research and then skews it towards his position, even though it generally doesn't support it.



No, he claims that it is a problem to be solved. He offers no actual evidence that it is a defect and his argument is flawed from both an informational and a logical standpoint. The formation of sexual orientation is what is studied by researchers. Further, research demonstrates that homosexuality is not a problem. His argument has more holes in it than a piece of swiss cheese.

People aren't defective. Just because one person can't see a use for them doesn't mean they are defective. Ontologuy is a supremacist because he dubs those beneath hem who do not match his person. There for people that differ from him are defective, classic dehumanizing tactic, it should not be embraced.
 
I've read on this topic.

My big question is, "if a treatment is developed to prevent a child from being born gay, will the Government allow it to be produced and sold, and if it does will the homosexual militants stand by idly and allow people to exercise their free choice?"
 
The only thing you've ever "shown" here is this: http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/160480-homosexuality-birth-defect-2.html#post1061800823

You criticize without providing scientific refutation.

You trollingly violate the spirit of forum rules by stalking my every accurate post on the topic in whatever thread I present it, leveling ad hominems against me every time (all which you "surprisingly" get away with. :roll:), evidencing that it's you who obviously gets frightened by the accurate scientific presentations I make .

Thus, clearly, the only one running scared here is you -- scared of the scientific truth.

Normally I just ignore you and don't respond to your antics, as they're meaningless, obviously, and, I don't want to get unjustifiably thread-banned again.

But, since I've said everything that needs to be said in the OP, which I will reference now whenever I wish in other threads, I'll take the considerable risk here and simply call a spade a spade .. and ignore you from here on in until you can post with true courtesy befitting your I.D. and with scientific topical relevance befitting the topic, instead of your usual mere ranting ad hominems.




Now, you're being persecuted. I love it.....................
 
The only thing you've ever "shown" here is this: http://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/160480-homosexuality-birth-defect-2.html#post1061800823

You criticize without providing scientific refutation.

You trollingly violate the spirit of forum rules by stalking my every accurate post on the topic in whatever thread I present it, leveling ad hominems against me every time (all which you "surprisingly" get away with. :roll:), evidencing that it's you who obviously gets frightened by the accurate scientific presentations I make .

Thus, clearly, the only one running scared here is you -- scared of the scientific truth.

Normally I just ignore you and don't respond to your antics, as they're meaningless, obviously, and, I don't want to get unjustifiably thread-banned again.

But, since I've said everything that needs to be said in the OP, which I will reference now whenever I wish in other threads, I'll take the considerable risk here and simply call a spade a spade .. and ignore you from here on in until you can post with true courtesy befitting your I.D. and with scientific topical relevance befitting the topic, instead of your usual mere ranting ad hominems.

Post something that says what a human's worth is, Please, I would love to see that. What is a person's utility?
 
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