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Same-sex marriage: Empathy or right?

StillBallin75

Salty Specialist
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This is one of the few times I'll agree with Mr. Krauthammer.

Is gay marriage a matter of empathy or of rights? - The Washington Post

Money quote:

Problem is: It’s a howling contradiction to leave up to the states an issue Obama now says is a right. And beyond being intellectually untenable, Obama’s embrace of the more hard-line “rights” argument compels him logically to see believers in traditional marriage as purveyors of bigotry. Not a good place for a president to be in an evenly divided national debate that requires both sides to offer each other a modicum of respect.


No wonder that Obama has been trying to get away from the issue as quickly as possible. It’s not just the New York Times poll showing his new position to be a net loser. It’s that he is too intelligent not to realize he’s embraced a logical contradiction.
 
Sometimes I hate him for saying what I think in a way I could never express.
 
I'm glad that he or anyone is able to empathize, but he's in a different position than the rest of us to actually at least try and do something about it. It's like Clinton saying marijuana should be legal...Gee, if only he were ever in a position to make it so. Obama thinks it should be a right? He should own that and stop trying to take a centrist position to please everyone, which ends up pleasing no one. It is a contradiction. It does boil down to a matter of rights, because it's not some imaginary issue. Real people are affected by having or being deprived of those rights, whether they live in Alabama or MA or Sweden, so hopefully he'll come around (again) before November.

Trying to dodge the issue would be pathetic at this point. It's gonna keep coming up. That "modicum of respect" line is a laugh though, when we're talking about Romney being his opponent. Romney found respect at what point, sometime between beating up the gay kid and running for president? As undiplomatic as it might seem to say so, the other side *are* bigots, and I'd more respect what Obama thinks on this if he showed the same kind of disapproval for them as Repubs continue to for gay rights. He should own what he clearly thinks.
 
Sometimes I hate him for saying what I think in a way I could never express.

you hate him for it? that's why I write him letters and tell him how awesome he is and how I always Special Report for him, and how I want to bear his children and how he needs to know that the restraining order can't restrain my love...




um. yeah. and he's smart, too. ahem.
 
That "modicum of respect" line is a laugh though, when we're talking about Romney being his opponent. Romney found respect at what point, sometime between beating up the gay kid and running for president? As undiplomatic as it might seem to say so, the other side *are* bigots, and I'd more respect what Obama thinks on this if he showed the same kind of disapproval for them as Repubs continue to for gay rights. He should own what he clearly thinks.


As a former Marine 0351 who moved into the intel field, I've been trained in small unit tactics, a variety of firearms, urban mobility, basic demolitions, launching rockets, mission planning, tracking personnel, etc. and so on and so forth. I've also been able to pick up a whole lot of tactics that the enemy uses to minimize detection and successfully launch attacks against civilian populaces that results in mass casualties. Illiterate sheepherders can do it - it's not as complex as long as you apply discipline and always follow basic opsec rules.

I also happen to be a fairly socially conservative fellow, and in particular I think that my fellow citizens who support abortion are supporting infanticide - that they are, in fact, supporting and in some cases taking part in particularly gruesome murder. To kill them could, in fact, be read as a way to protect the innocent.

So. What do you think happens if I decide to forgo my modicum of respect for people I disagree with? :)


hmm... perhaps it's better if we agree to maintain a basic assumption that when it comes to deeply contentious issues, that both sides are operating in good faith and from better motives. ;)
 
hmm... perhaps it's better if we agree to maintain a basic assumption that when it comes to deeply contentious issues, that both sides are operating in good faith and from better motives. ;)

Heaven forfend. Demonizing the opposition is the only way to show you really care.
 
As a former Marine 0351 who moved into the intel field, I've been trained in small unit tactics, a variety of firearms, urban mobility, basic demolitions, launching rockets, mission planning, tracking personnel, etc. and so on and so forth. I've also been able to pick up a whole lot of tactics that the enemy uses to minimize detection and successfully launch attacks against civilian populaces that results in mass casualties. Illiterate sheepherders can do it - it's not as complex as long as you apply discipline and always follow basic opsec rules.

I also happen to be a fairly socially conservative fellow, and in particular I think that my fellow citizens who support abortion are supporting infanticide - that they are, in fact, supporting and in some cases taking part in particularly gruesome murder. To kill them could, in fact, be read as a way to protect the innocent.

So. What do you think happens if I decide to forgo my modicum of respect for people I disagree with? :)


hmm... perhaps it's better if we agree to maintain a basic assumption that when it comes to deeply contentious issues, that both sides are operating in good faith and from better motives. ;)

When it comes to an issue of something I view as a basic right, there really isn't a lot of room for compromise. And frankly, while in general I think on most issues there are places where reasonable conservatives and reasonable liberals can disagree, gay marriage is not one of these. I don't view the anti-SSM position to be based upon anything other than prejudice and ignorance. Good faith? Good faith in what? On whose behalf?
 
When it comes to an issue of something I view as a basic right, there really isn't a lot of room for compromise.

hmm. such as the right to life? :)

And frankly, while in general I think on most issues there are places where reasonable conservatives and reasonable liberals can disagree, gay marriage is not one of these. I don't view the anti-SSM position to be based upon anything other than prejudice and ignorance. Good faith? Good faith in what? On whose behalf?

Good point. There is no way people could honestly disagree with me unless they are evil. 50% of Americans obviously.... are evil, and need be extended no consideration.
 
hmm. such as the right to life? :)



Good point. There is no way people could honestly disagree with me unless they are evil. 50% of Americans obviously.... are evil, and need be extended no consideration.

2 logical fallacy's in here, let's see who can name them first shall we?
 
hmm. such as the right to life? :)

I can understand where most such pro-lifers are coming from as I used to be one, so you won't get an argument from me.

Good point. There is no way people could honestly disagree with me unless they are evil. 50% of Americans obviously.... are evil, and need be extended no consideration.

What Your Star said.
 
2 logical fallacy's in here, let's see who can name them first shall we?

Fortunately, you disagree with me, which means you hate America, and I can safely avoid listening to you because you're evil. And / or stupid. :)
 
I can understand where most such pro-lifers are coming from as I used to be one, so you won't get an argument from me.

What Your Star said.

Very well. Since you used to be pro life, let me know where you live so I can come lose my modicum of respect for you :)
 
Fortunately, you disagree with me, which means you hate America, and I can safely avoid listening to you because you're evil. And / or stupid. :)

Tell us. Are you going to KEEP digging yourself in a hole?
 
Tell us. Are you going to KEEP digging yourself in a hole?

:) An argument that begins by ascribing evil to ones' opponents as the only possible reason for disagreement is not only stupid and uncharitable, but intellectually lazy. Choosing to avoid actually attempting to understand ones' opposition and instead choosing to blanket-ascribe them a negative label is mental masturbation, not sound reason. Opposing someones' means does not require opposition to their motives.

I'll admit, however, the lazy part appeals to me.

You anti-American bigot.

:)
 
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:) An argument that begins by ascribing evil to ones' opponents as the only possible reason for disagreement is not only stupid and uncharitable, but intellectually lazy. Opposing someones' means does not require opposition to their motives.

I'll admit, however, the lazy part appeals to me.

You anti-American bigot.

:)

So, you have decided to keep digging. Have you considered actually DEBATING the issue coherently if you disagree with how it is being presented, rather than digging yourself into this hole of logical fallacies and intellectual laziness? See, your position on this is certainly viable and reasonable, but how you are PRESENTING it is neither.
 
Hey that's what I was doing!!

Eh, I'm always pointing out logical fallacies. Someone else needs to get their feet wet with doing it... some newbie who needs to learn about them.
 
So, you have decided to keep digging. Have you considered actually DEBATING the issue coherently if you disagree with how it is being presented, rather than digging yourself into this hole of logical fallacies and intellectual laziness? See, your position on this is certainly viable and reasonable, but how you are PRESENTING it is neither.

Alright CC, this will be interesting - you justify to me why it is that we can come in and declare that the very act of coming to a differing conclusion than others demands as a deductive argument that those others must be acting from evil motive?

This will be fun :).
 
Alright CC, this will be interesting - you justify to me why it is that we can come in and declare that the very act of coming to a differing conclusion than others demands as a deductive argument that those others must be acting from evil motive?

This will be fun :).

Now, which logical fallacy do you think you just made?
 
I asked a question - do you have an answer or are you dancing?


And I believe the answer you are looking for for your question is an error of assumption because you are smarter than to buy the idiotic argument that has been put forth in this thread that anyone who wouldn't support SSM is somehow inherently evil or idiotic.
 
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I asked a question - do you have an answer or are you dancing?

And I believe the answer you are looking for for your question is an error of assumption because you are smarter than to buy the idiotic argument that has been put forth in this thread that anyone who wouldn't support SSM is somehow inherently evil or idiotic.

Either that or a straw man argument... as I never argued the position that you have ascribed to me. I think my position on SSM is quite well known at DP, as is my position on those who argue against SSM.

And secret messages aren't really secret. ;)
 
Very well. Since you used to be pro life, let me know where you live so I can come lose my modicum of respect for you :)

It's really not that hard to figure out my location, so I don't know why you're asking.
 
Fortunately, you disagree with me, which means you hate America, and I can safely avoid listening to you because you're evil. And / or stupid. :)

Are you trying to be funny or ironic? Because you're miserably failing on both fronts.
 
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