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EM Drive -> non-linear scaling -> possible warp?

Goshin

Goshin

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Interesting scientific discussion in which some theorize the EM drive will scale up in a non-linear manner, that is far more thrust per energy input than simply additive. If so it means instead of 200kw=200x the thrust of 1kw, it may mean 200kw=several thousand times the thrust of 1kw.

If this is so (and it is still a huge pile of if) then the Space Age may be truly about to bust wide open to a degree no one expected. Interplanetary travel might be about to become several thousand times more feasible and economical.

Furthermore, some of the more popular theories about how it works will kick over many controversial applecarts of physics, and may pave the way to greater understanding of how space-time works. At least one theory insists the drive could not operate without a fifth dimension (hyperspace) involved; others suggest alternate theories of gravitation.


Still a lot of IF, but this COULD be huge.


Next Big Future: EMDrive, possible Warp or hyperspace indications and more Goatguy fame
 
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Goshin said:
Interesting scientific discussion in which some theorize the EM drive will scale up in a non-linear manner, that is far more thrust per energy input than simply additive. If so it means instead of 200kw=200x the thrust of 1kw, it may mean 200kw=several thousand times the thrust of 1kw.

If this is so (and it is still a huge pile of if) then the Space Age may be truly about to bust wide open to a degree no one expected. Interplanetary travel might be about to become several thousand times more feasible and economical.

Furthermore, some of the more popular theories about how it works will kick over many controversial applecarts of physics, and may pave the way to greater understanding of how space-time works. At least one theory insists the drive could not operate without a fifth dimension (hyperspace) involved; others suggest alternate theories of gravitation.


Still a lot of IF, but this COULD be huge.


Next Big Future: EMDrive, possible Warp or hyperspace indications and more Goatguy fame
Click to expand...

As long as we acknowledge the IF! Let's substantiate the EM drive first, then move on. =P
 
Sherman123 said:
As long as we acknowledge the IF! Let's substantiate the EM drive first, then move on. =P
Click to expand...



Oh absolutely... tons of IF still.

Peer-reviewed NASA paper acknowledges the thing appears to work somehow, and they're planning in-space tests soon, so we should know before too long whether we're really on to something big or not.
 
Goshin said:
Interesting scientific discussion in which some theorize the EM drive will scale up in a non-linear manner, that is far more thrust per energy input than simply additive. If so it means instead of 200kw=200x the thrust of 1kw, it may mean 200kw=several thousand times the thrust of 1kw.

If this is so (and it is still a huge pile of if) then the Space Age may be truly about to bust wide open to a degree no one expected. Interplanetary travel might be about to become several thousand times more feasible and economical.

Furthermore, some of the more popular theories about how it works will kick over many controversial applecarts of physics, and may pave the way to greater understanding of how space-time works. At least one theory insists the drive could not operate without a fifth dimension (hyperspace) involved; others suggest alternate theories of gravitation.


Still a lot of IF, but this COULD be huge.


Next Big Future: EMDrive, possible Warp or hyperspace indications and more Goatguy fame
Click to expand...

As I stated in another thread, even if they can get this thing to work, its delta-v and thrust to weight ratio would still be inferior to chemical drives currently in use. The one advantage it has over the other drives is in its almost non-existent fuel consumption, which would be a negligible advantage once we can figure out in orbit refueling and ISRU on planets like Mars.
 
PoS said:
As I stated in another thread, even if they can get this thing to work, its delta-v and thrust to weight ratio would still be inferior to chemical drives currently in use. The one advantage it has over the other drives is in its almost non-existent fuel consumption, which would be a negligible advantage once we can figure out in orbit refueling and ISRU on planets like Mars.
Click to expand...

What's the difference in safety risk?
 
PoS said:
As I stated in another thread, even if they can get this thing to work, its delta-v and thrust to weight ratio would still be inferior to chemical drives currently in use. The one advantage it has over the other drives is in its almost non-existent fuel consumption, which would be a negligible advantage once we can figure out in orbit refueling and ISRU on planets like Mars.
Click to expand...


If the non-linear scaling turns out to be true, that will no longer be the case.
 
Goshin said:
If the non-linear scaling turns out to be true, that will no longer be the case.
Click to expand...

Well the only article that postulates that kind of scaling is from that one blog youve quoted, so color me skeptical.
 
I just want some clear answers to this... seems interesting...but it's bordering the conspiracy theory nonsense and the actual real deal line xD
 
PoS said:
Well the only article that postulates that kind of scaling is from that one blog youve quoted, so color me skeptical.
Click to expand...


Skepticism is reasonable; total dismissal isn't.
 
celticwar17 said:
I just want some clear answers to this... seems interesting...but it's bordering the conspiracy theory nonsense and the actual real deal line xD
Click to expand...


Conspiracy theory? Seriously? Did you read the linked article?
 
Goshin said:
Conspiracy theory? Seriously? Did you read the linked article?
Click to expand...

I did... I'm not knocking the subject or the EM drive. Just that there is very little information and scientists have not taken it seriously until really recently(Nasa was extremely skeptical of it no more than a year ago). I was trying to say I hope the hype is real.
 
PoS said:
As I stated in another thread, even if they can get this thing to work, its delta-v and thrust to weight ratio would still be inferior to chemical drives currently in use. The one advantage it has over the other drives is in its almost non-existent fuel consumption, which would be a negligible advantage once we can figure out in orbit refueling and ISRU on planets like Mars.
Click to expand...

Delta V is the change in velocity. Chemical engines can rapidly change velocity for a very limited period due to limited fuel load for a short overall impulse. The EM Drive would be only limited by the energy generation equipment on board therefor the impulse duration would be much longer depending on the generation type used. The potential Delta V of the EM Drive would be orders of magnitude greater than chemical rockets again depending on the generation method used. Chemical engines have higher specific impulses (acceleration) and less duration therefor severely limiting potential Delta V.
 
I'm very skeptical. I don't understand their explanations.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Delta V is the change in velocity. Chemical engines can rapidly change velocity for a very limited period due to limited fuel load for a short overall impulse. The EM Drive would be only limited by the energy generation equipment on board therefor the impulse duration would be much longer depending on the generation type used. The potential Delta V of the EM Drive would be orders of magnitude greater than chemical rockets again depending on the generation method used. Chemical engines have higher specific impulses (acceleration) and less duration therefor severely limiting potential Delta V.
Click to expand...

Current ion drives do a very similar thing- they are slow but there is a constant delta-v. Just looking at the numbers the delta-v of this EM drive is so minuscule that you won't be able to lift off from earth's gravity well with it. It's too slow to be of practical use.
 
PoS said:
Current ion drives do a very similar thing- they are slow but there is a constant delta-v. Just looking at the numbers the delta-v of this EM drive is so minuscule that you won't be able to lift off from earth's gravity well with it. It's too slow to be of practical use.
Click to expand...

You would use the drive like a ION drive or solar sail or a laser sail.
 
PirateMk1 said:
You would use the drive like a ION drive or solar sail or a laser sail.
Click to expand...

Well the em drive needs to be faster than ion thrusters to be of any practical use. If they can get a working prototype going, then it would be prudent to be hopeful.
 
Goshin said:
Skepticism is reasonable; total dismissal isn't.
Click to expand...

You would totally dismiss the notion that the EM Drive produces thrust without fuel because there's actually an invisible tiny unicorn pushing it.

Why? Because that's just gibberish.

The article you linked is also gibberish.
 
Deuce said:
You would totally dismiss the notion that the EM Drive produces thrust without fuel because there's actually an invisible tiny unicorn pushing it.

Why? Because that's just gibberish.

The article you linked is also gibberish.
Click to expand...



Well they're testing it and so far it looks like it does produce some thrust. Further testing is planned.


You realize that if it flies you're getting quoted, of course. :)



Ah how I envy you! To be grouped together with the immortals of quotism, like

"If man were meant to fly he'd have wings."

"The patent office should be closed... everything that can be invented, has been."

... and other such enduring chestnuts. :)
 
Goshin said:
Well they're testing it and so far it looks like it does produce some thrust. Further testing is planned.


You realize that if it flies you're getting quoted, of course. :)



Ah how I envy you! To be grouped together with the immortals of quotism, like

"If man were meant to fly he'd have wings."

"The patent office should be closed... everything that can be invented, has been."

... and other such enduring chestnuts. :)
Click to expand...

you misunderstand. I'm referring to the "non-linear scaling hyperdrive" gobbledegook.

I'm skeptical of the EM Drive being able to actually produce thrust in a vacuum. I'm dismissing the idea that it is evidence for the existence of hyperspace.
 
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PoS said:
As I stated in another thread, even if they can get this thing to work, its delta-v and thrust to weight ratio would still be inferior to chemical drives currently in use. The one advantage it has over the other drives is in its almost non-existent fuel consumption, which would be a negligible advantage once we can figure out in orbit refueling and ISRU on planets like Mars.
Click to expand...

It would not be a quick-reaction thrust, you would still need some other kind of chemical propulsion for that. For long cruises however, there really is nothing better we've even dreamt of.


Goshin said:
Skepticism is reasonable; total dismissal isn't.
Click to expand...

Deuce said:
You would totally dismiss the notion that the EM Drive produces thrust without fuel because there's actually an invisible tiny unicorn pushing it.

Why? Because that's just gibberish.

The article you linked is also gibberish.
Click to expand...

celticwar17 said:
I did... I'm not knocking the subject or the EM drive. Just that there is very little information and scientists have not taken it seriously until really recently(Nasa was extremely skeptical of it no more than a year ago). I was trying to say I hope the hype is real.
Click to expand...

Absentglare said:
I'm very skeptical. I don't understand their explanations.
Click to expand...

The concept works, it's now been proven. Scalability is still uncertain, but that it works is not.

Official report

Deuce said:
you misunderstand. I'm referring to the "non-linear scaling hyperdrive" gobbledegook.

I'm skeptical of the EM Drive being able to actually produce thrust in a vacuum. I'm dismissing the idea that it is evidence for the existence of hyperspace.
Click to expand...

They tested it in a vacuum chamber and it does work.
 
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Deuce said:
you misunderstand. I'm referring to the "non-linear scaling hyperdrive" gobbledegook.

I'm skeptical of the EM Drive being able to actually produce thrust in a vacuum. I'm dismissing the idea that it is evidence for the existence of hyperspace.
Click to expand...



Ah, I see.


Well, we'll see what we see.
 
Well, looks like the next Great War won't be WWIII, but Space War I.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
The concept works, it's now been proven. Scalability is still uncertain, but that it works is not.

Official report



They tested it in a vacuum chamber and it does work.
Click to expand...

Not quite, RA. It's been discussed, and a small measure of energy is has purportedly been measured above the margin of error, but there is no confirmation as to whether it truly is thrust. There needs to be independent tests done and peer reviews, so its a long way from being confirmed.

You Still Shouldn't Believe in the emDrive

EmDrive - RationalWiki
 
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