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Thread: Is Gravity Fake?

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    Is Gravity Fake?

    LOL, I know, I know. It sounds like a ridiculous question to entertain in the slightest. Please hear me out, the more open-minded.

    We are told that gravity is what keeps the planets in orbit and it is a principal force or energy in the universe. I've always had a problem with this concept.

    1. Why doesn't the moon ever get any closer or further away? Why doesn't anything? Everything seems to keep moving on the same track. This implies, more or less, the same constant speed and trajectory. This is implying perpetual motion. How can something continuously move and not lose speed? Not waver? Gravity is energy but it doesn't apply or retract it's energy to keep a thing going in constant motion. Although to us the planets are moving fast, relative to themselves they are crawling through space. Swinging around one another on an invisible tether. But this movement creates momentum in which the orbiting object is always being pushed outward. If gravity were constant and, say, the moon was in our field, than just like something caught in a black hole, the moon would slowly but surely draw closer and closer to us until it crashed into us. But this doesn't happen. Why?

    2. Is Gravity a constant form of energy? They say that gravity is dependent on mass. But if gravity is dependent on mass and the mass stays the same, that means the gravity is exerted continuously merely based on the mass of an object. An energy of attraction is constantly exerted whose intensity is proportional to it's mass. Constant energy. I can never bridge this concept in my head.

    3. Black Holes are one of the greatest examples of gravity we have...theoretically. Supposedly it has a force that is able to draw in anything that comes within the event horizon- meaning the point at which even light can escape. There are a number of questions here. If the event horizon exists at a certain point, does that mean that closer to the core the pull is even greater and things exceeding the speed of light can be pulled in?

    Two, I have often seen pictures of giant poles of radiation escaping from the poles of the Black Hole. If those pictures are true, how? If nothing can go beyond the speed of light and the Black Hole pulls everything in traveling at the speed of light (especially from its own central area i would think) then it would seem that either these radiation geysers are being expelled at speeds beyond the speed of light or that gravity is not as strong as light or it doesn't exist or exist in the way we think.

    Perhaps we can't explain it because, in some way, it does not exist. Or the explanations are wrong? Something is wrong?

    Any thoughts to add? It's a topic I can talk forever about.
    Last edited by makmugens; 06-06-12 at 12:22 AM.

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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by makmugens View Post
    1. Why doesn't the moon ever get any closer or further away? Why doesn't anything? Everything seems to keep moving on the same track. This implies, more or less, the same constant speed and trajectory. This is implying perpetual motion. How can something continuously move and not lose speed? Not waver?
    A spinning object will stay spinning until a force acts to slow it down. If you pick up a bike and spin one its tires, the tire tries to spin forever. But there's friction in the bearings that slowly bleeds away the roational kinetic energy of the tire eventually causing it to stop. The moon is like a super massive bike tire spinning on some really really good bearings (there's really no resistive force bleeding away at the moon's rotational energy, so the moon will keep whipping around us for billions of years).

    Quote Originally Posted by makmugens View Post
    Gravity is energy but it doesn't apply or retract it's energy to keep a thing going in constant motion. Although to us the planets are moving fast, relative to themselves they are crawling through space. Swinging around one another on an invisible tether. But this movement creates momentum in which the orbiting object is always being pushed outward. If gravity were constant and, say, the moon was in our field, than just like something caught in a black hole, the moon would slowly but surely draw closer and closer to us until it crashed into us. But this doesn't happen. Why?
    This is called orbit. An object that is in orbit is moving at just the right velocity so that its centrifugal force (that's the "force", really its just momentum but its useful to think of it as a force, that's trying to fling the object outward in a straight line like when mud flings off of a spinning bike tire) balances the gravitational force trying to pull the object inward. Since the forces are balanced, the object doesn't move inward or outward, it just keeps going around in a circle.

    Quote Originally Posted by makmugens View Post
    2. Is Gravity a constant form of energy? They say that gravity is dependent on mass. But if gravity is dependent on mass and the mass stays the same, that means the gravity is exerted continuously merely based on the mass of an object. An energy of attraction is constantly exerted whose intensity is proportional to it's mass. Constant energy. I can never bridge this concept in my head.
    No offense intended, but you have some kind of convoluted ideas of energy and gravity. It would probably do you some good to just read some wiki pages on energy and gravity to get a better idea of the general concepts. Gravity is not a form of energy, not in the rigorous scientific sense of the word energy anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by makmugens View Post
    Black Holes are one of the greatest examples of gravity we have...theoretically. Supposedly it has a force that is able to draw in anything that comes within the event horizon- meaning the point at which even light can escape. There are a number of questions here. If the event horizon exists at a certain point, does that mean that closer to the core the pull is even greater and things exceeding the speed of light can be pulled in?
    I'm not sure I understand, what "things exceeding the speed of light" are you referring to? Nothing should be going faster than c. Inside the event horizon, the strength of gravity of the black hole continues to increase until it reaches a singularity. What happens beyond the singularity we don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by makmugens View Post
    Two, I have often seen pictures of giant poles of radiation escaping from the poles of the Black Hole. If those pictures are true, how? If nothing can go beyond the speed of light and the Black Hole pulls everything in traveling at the speed of light (especially from its own central area i would think) then it would seem that either these radiation geysers are being expelled at speeds beyond the speed of light or that gravity is not as strong as light or it doesn't exist or exist in the way we think.
    The radiation that you're referring to is not actually being emitted from within the event horizon. The radiation you're referring to is radation emitted from all the matter that's getting close to the black hole but has not yet crossed the event horizon. However, when you're looking at the black hole from far away, it just looks like the geysers of radiation are coming from the balck hole itself.

    There is a type of radiation, however, that black holes do emit called Hawking radiation. Black holes slowly bleed this radiation out until they completely evaporate.

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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    If I recall the flaw in Einstein's theory of general relativity is that it doesn't explain what gravity is or the big bang. It can explain everything down to the point of the singularity but it doesn't explain the singularity event or what occured before it. But science has discovered that the further away from the big bang, the weaker gravity gets, which suggests that gravity has mass and energy. One theory that I like thinking about is that the big bang was caused by two or more universes colliding and that gravity was a dimension from one of the colliding universes. Yes, I like thinking and visualizing about this stuff too but I can see that you've given it a lot more thought than me.

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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    Admittedly, I only have a rudimentary understanding, but the gist I garnered from Einstein’s work, and others, is that gravity is the bending of space. In much the same way if you and I stretch a bed sheet out between us and somewhat sets a bowling ball in the center of it, the sheet will bend, causing it to dip. It seems things like stars and planets do the same thing to space, only it is three demensitonal. Actually, it is probably four dimensions since time passes slower near a gravity well, relative to elsewhere.

    So, if space is bent around the Earth, the Moon could be moving in a straight line, but the curvature of space around the Earth makes the trajectory orbital. So, to me, it is wrong to think of gravity as being some sort of energy. In some ways I don’t even think it is a force, though practically speaking it acts that way. I think it is just the manifestation of how the curvature of space affects bodies.

    That might just be me talking out of my ass though.

    As for things not getting closer or farther away, you have to remember that objects that have landed themselves in an orbit are the rare exception. Most things either keep moving on their way through space, or they get caught in a gravity well and get sucked into a star, black hole, planet, or moon. So the celestial bodies that are orbiting other celestial bodies are just the “lucky” ones that ended up in the sweet spot.

    And, actually, the moon is getting farther away by a few centimeters a year. But my understanding is this is caused by tidal forces and if the Earth were dry that might not be the case.
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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    [QUOTE=the_recruit;1060567224]A spinning object will stay spinning until a force acts to slow it down. If you pick up a bike and spin one its tires, the tire tries to spin forever. But there's friction in the bearings that slowly bleeds away the roational kinetic energy of the tire eventually causing it to stop. The moon is like a super massive bike tire spinning on some really really good bearings (there's really no resistive force bleeding away at the moon's rotational energy, so the moon will keep whipping around us for billions of years).

    This is called orbit. An object that is in orbit is moving at just the right velocity so that its centrifugal force (that's the "force", really its just momentum but its useful to think of it as a force, that's trying to fling the object outward in a straight line like when mud flings off of a spinning bike tire) balances the gravitational force trying to pull the object inward. Since the forces are balanced, the object doesn't move inward or outward, it just keeps going around in a circle.

    I don't see where there is balance. Let's consider the moon is moving through a field absolutely absent of restriction- being acted on by no force whatsoever. The object would then conserve it's initial momentum and trajectory but the trajectory would be vectoral, going in a more or less straight line, not circular or elliptical. This is where you bring gravity in, right. What you are saying is that at a certain speed the Earth's gravity catches hold of the Moon and holds it in a permanent orbit. It attracts the object moving around it until there is a balance between the two forces. The Moon keeps going because it is absent of any impeding force. It stays in place because of gravity. But gravity is the impeding force. The force of gravity is perpendicular to the axis of momentum. This is like flying through a vacuum absent of any force except a suction that pulls from your side. While your momentum allows you to hold out against it briefly, you will eventually be pulled further and further towards the center.

    No offense intended, but you have some kind of convoluted ideas of energy and gravity. It would probably do you some good to just read some wiki pages on energy and gravity to get a better idea of the general concepts. Gravity is not a form of energy, not in the rigorous scientific sense of the word energy anyway.
    You would not know I take that as a compliment, lol. I think the problem is that you are relying on those general concepts you read from wiki. I don't consider an absolute authority on anything...a bible, as it were. You should try forming your own opinion sometimes. And I really do not mean offense by that.

    I'm not sure I understand, what "things exceeding the speed of light" are you referring to? Nothing should be going faster than c. Inside the event horizon, the strength of gravity of the black hole continues to increase until it reaches a singularity. What happens beyond the singularity we don't know.
    By exceeding the speed of light I mean objects or whatever that can go faster than the speed of light. Why can't something go beyond the speed of light? If light were 100mph, why can't it go 1001...1002?

    Similarly, there is many things before the singularity we don't know. The research is based on a certain mathematical observation, not a direct one. It examines the mathematics of things around it and compares it to known info. History is sort of full of examples of how that can go wrong. I'd say there was room for misinterpretation all around.

    The radiation that you're referring to is not actually being emitted from within the event horizon. The radiation you're referring to is radation emitted from all the matter that's getting close to the black hole but has not yet crossed the event horizon. However, when you're looking at the black hole from far away, it just looks like the geysers of radiation are coming from the balck hole itself.
    That makes a bit more sense except that the material around a black hole is spinning, itself, is it not. If energy were escaping the objects around the black hole than wouldn't it be radiated from it in a circular form like light from a light bulb? Why a geyser or plume? Certainly energ is not gathered into the poles and jettisoned. The shape of the geyser- narrow at the bottom and broader at the top means that the material was launched with speed from a specific position and continued until the initial velocity waned. Yes, it distinctly looks like that. Two geysers perpendicular to the rotating mass of matter orbiting the black hole.

    There is a type of radiation, however, that black holes do emit called Hawking radiation. Black holes slowly bleed this radiation out until they completely evaporate.
    Yes, that is my point. That radiation travels at the speed of light. How can light avoid the suction of all things at and perhaps beyond the speed of light. I could see Hawking radiation more clearly as the radiation from the material that has bunched up but not entered the event horizon, but after that point, the rule should be uniform. You may enter but you can never leave.

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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    I've known gravity to be a bit insincere at times, but I wouldn't call it fake.

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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I've known gravity to be a bit insincere at times, but I wouldn't call it fake.
    Ooo, sounds gravity let you down?

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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    The moon is receding from the Earth at a rate of 38mm per year. It does so because of gravity.
    Eternity is an awfully long time, especially towards the end.

    Hi, I'm from Europe, where the history comes from.

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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Ooo, sounds gravity let you down?
    Believe me, Moot -- when you get to be my age, gravity is certain to let you down, too.

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    Re: Is Gravity Fake?

    Gravity isn't strictly a form of energy, but rather a field effect like magnetism, and the attraction/repulsion between opposite/same charges + and -.

    Currently our science isn't entirely sure what gravity IS in a fundamental sense. We can decribe what it DOES.... "mass exerts a pull on things".... we can theorize based on these observations (Einstein viewed gravity as a curving of space-time)... but we can't say what it is exactly or precisely WHY it does what it does. No Graviton particle has yet been detected, to my knowlege.

    Until the day comes that a GUT or Unified Field Theory is proven to be correct, gravity remains something of a "Black box puzzle" to us.... we can see the inputs and the outputs, but not the process.
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