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Who's Lucifer?

grip

grip

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Did god really relegate that position to another besides himself? Did Jesus not say, "Father lead them not into temptation?" There is no devil except the one we create.
 
TheGoverness said:
Who's Lucifer? Lucifer's my homeslice.
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He's actually named in the OT as the 'Morning Star' or the same as Jesus. I doubt though he's a slice of white bread, more like whole grain.
 
grip said:
Did god really relegate that position to another besides himself? Did Jesus not say, "Father lead them not into temptation?" There is no devil except the one we create.
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Are you interested in the Jewish approach to this question?
 
grip said:
He's actually named in the OT as the 'Morning Star' or the same as Jesus. I doubt though he's a slice of white bread, more like whole grain.
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In that particular paragraph, it is the 'mocking' poem against King Neb, who was being compared to a god of the Pheoncian pantheon, Attar tried to take the place of the Dead Baal, and failed. He reached beyond his grasp and fell. It has nothing to do with 'ha-satan' that is described in the book of Job .
 
Apparently, Lucifer used to be God's second in command. Like so many second in commands, he betrayed the guy at the top. A third of the angels followed him and they were all thrown out of heaven onto earth, the same exact place where God would put humanity (as opposed to casting them to hell where they wouldn't be able to interfere). Lucifer is now known as the devil and leads people away from God.
 
I like the TV show's version better.
 
grip said:
Did god really relegate that position to another besides himself? Did Jesus not say, "Father lead them not into temptation?" There is no devil except the one we create.
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I would submit that Lucifer is Lutherfer's evil twin. :mrgreen:
 
grip said:
Did god really relegate that position to another besides himself? Did Jesus not say, "Father lead them not into temptation?" There is no devil except the one we create.
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Isn't the original meaning "...and subject us not to the trial"?
 
Lucifer, "Light-bringer", the favourite among the Angels, who denied God's dominion over the Angels because Angels weren't created by God. Cast out of Heaven, quoted by Milton as saying, "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven."
 
He was an angel in the pre-mortal existence who fell and desired to rob all of us of our free agency and sought power over all the sons and daughters of God and even God Himself so great was his pride. In this rebellion a third of the part of heaven he convinced to join him and God cast him out of heaven and he and his angels to this day tempt mankind to do evil so that they can be miserable like him forever. He's a murderer many times over, a liar, a being of hate and darkness. That each of us have been born on the earth means we are part of the two thirds of heaven that rejected him in the pre-mortal existence where we were spirit sons or daughters of God.
 
grip said:
Did god really relegate that position to another besides himself? Did Jesus not say, "Father lead them not into temptation?" There is no devil except the one we create.
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Lucifer was an archangel.

Given what we know he was the greatest of all angels. He might have even been given a little bit of free will.
We also know that he was the guardian of God's throne.

What we can surmise from scripture and other literature on this is that Lucifer grew jealous of the trinity.
He didn't like the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

They had a recycling relationship and what we can theorize based on scripture is that they were always glorifying each other and edifying each other.

Lucifer seemed to not like this or he grew jealous or really what got him was pride.
More than likely he trieid to take God's Glory for himself. He managed to convience from of the other
angels to go along with him.

However the created was never stronger than the creator and so God cast them all out of heaven. after that his hatred consumed him and
distorted him into something else.

again a lot of this is theory and probably heavily debated but we can in general patch different things together.

the two references is Ezekiel 28 11-19.

Isaiah 14:11-23.

also a point of not Christ is refered to as the morning star. Lucifer is referred to as the day star.
 
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And what's important to distinguish between is the poetic historicity of Dante and Milton (or Shakespeare) and the real deal. ;)
 
nota bene said:
And what's important to distinguish between is the poetic historicity of Dante and Milton (or Shakespeare) and the real deal. ;)
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I have to agree. There is the dramatic and then there is the real.
The real is not nice.

that is why I find that new show Lucifer kind of funny. they are trying to spin that he is simply misunderstood.
 
I think Al Pacino's portrayal in Devil's Advocate is marvelous.
 
I thought it was unanimous that Obama was Lucifer. Why are we still discussing this in 2016?
 
nota bene said:
I think Al Pacino's portrayal in Devil's Advocate is marvelous.
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There's a TV show right now with a guy doing a great job of it, and I like the angle that Lucifer never actually had a choice in the manner, he was created to fall and punish the wicked in hell. He always hated the role he was forced into and finally escaped hell to live on earth.

In Los Angelas, where he joins up with a female detective and we get standard "procedural detective show where by the books cop has wacky sidekick" show. The devil plays detective. Punishing the wicked.

But the actor nails it.
 
grip said:
Did god really relegate that position to another besides himself? Did Jesus not say, "Father lead them not into temptation?" There is no devil except the one we create.
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Satan was the most beautiful of Cherubim. But this created being, though in the very presence of GOD, decided to make himself to be God. And this is the same lie he promoted to Adam and Eve. And it is the same lie he promotes TODAY ---- that being man evolved intelligence and is becoming more and more a god in his own right --- once inventing GOD, but now doesn't need Him... This is what brought about the catastrophic FLOOD of Noah's time, and what will lead directly to the 7 year TRIBULATION, and culminate after 1000 years with the Battle of ARMAGEDDON. That is how I see what the Bible shows.
 
None of it makes any sense. And I say this after having been warned that I'm not allowed in these forums to argue that there's no God. I'm not sure why. Everyone here can argue that here's a God and a Satan, but I can't give my opinion that I don't agree that the belief in either is logical? If we're going to allow religion arguments here, it only seems fair that we allow all sides. And I'm taking a risk here by discussing my views, but the mods here seem to allow leeway, so here I go. If I get f+cked over with a ban, I'll take my opinions elsewhere.

Why would a benevolent God that loves us allow for a Devil that hates us and hates Him? Why would a God that wants us to choose honor and goodness allow a Satan to try and change our minds? Why would a God that loves us allow floods, famine, cancer, plague, tsunamis, and hurricanes? I saw an article today about a two-headed baby. Isn't that a bit cruel? And did the devil create that baby that will live a life of torment? The devil doesn't have that power. I've read the Bible cover to cover. And only God creates life. So why does He create babies with two heads?

And it makes no sense whatsoever that Satan would torment sinners. If I'm a drunk atheist that snorts coke and sleeps with as many women as possible, why would I be Satan's enemy? Wouldn't I be his bro? If Satan is evil, then why would he go after sinners? If Satan were evil, it stands to reason that he would hate the non-sinners. If I'm a jerk and show up in hell, Satan should just high five me because I'm his boy.

But whenever you try to reason with the religious with logic, they just say, "God works in mysterious ways!" How convenient to always have unwaivering faith without any counterargument.
 
Brewdog said:
None of it makes any sense. And I say this after having been warned that I'm not allowed in these forums to argue that there's no God. I'm not sure why. Everyone here can argue that here's a God and a Satan, but I can't give my opinion that I don't agree that the belief in either is logical? If we're going to allow religion arguments here, it only seems fair that we allow all sides. And I'm taking a risk here by discussing my views, but the mods here seem to allow leeway, so here I go. If I get f+cked over with a ban, I'll take my opinions elsewhere.

Why would a benevolent God that loves us allow for a Devil that hates us and hates Him? Why would a God that wants us to choose honor and goodness allow a Satan to try and change our minds? Why would a God that loves us allow floods, famine, cancer, plague, tsunamis, and hurricanes? I saw an article today about a two-headed baby. Isn't that a bit cruel? And did the devil create that baby that will live a life of torment? The devil doesn't have that power. I've read the Bible cover to cover. And only God creates life. So why does He create babies with two heads?

And it makes no sense whatsoever that Satan would torment sinners. If I'm a drunk atheist that snorts coke and sleeps with as many women as possible, why would I be Satan's enemy? Wouldn't I be his bro? If Satan is evil, then why would he go after sinners? If Satan were evil, it stands to reason that he would hate the non-sinners. If I'm a jerk and show up in hell, Satan should just high five me because I'm his boy.

But whenever you try to reason with the religious with logic, they just say, "God works in mysterious ways!" How convenient to always have unwaivering faith without any counterargument.
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The reason that there is trouble in this world is because of Satan and Sin. So, if you wish to high 5 satan, I cannot imagine that you are not blind... Satan doesn't torment sinners in the Lake of Fire. He is just as trapped there as anyone else. Hell was created as a place to put satan and the fallen angels. What torments those in hell is the the realization that they threw away every opportunity to enter into heaven and turned their back on GOD. They will each be alone in a burning darkness to replay their life over and over and over,,,
Oh, and you are certainly allowed to question any religious belief here; unlike science class and public schools which disallow speaking in terms of the spiritual and Intelligent Design.
 
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Brewdog said:
None of it makes any sense. And I say this after having been warned that I'm not allowed in these forums to argue that there's no God. I'm not sure why. Everyone here can argue that here's a God and a Satan, but I can't give my opinion that I don't agree that the belief in either is logical? If we're going to allow religion arguments here, it only seems fair that we allow all sides. And I'm taking a risk here by discussing my views, but the mods here seem to allow leeway, so here I go. If I get f+cked over with a ban, I'll take my opinions elsewhere.

Why would a benevolent God that loves us allow for a Devil that hates us and hates Him? Why would a God that wants us to choose honor and goodness allow a Satan to try and change our minds? Why would a God that loves us allow floods, famine, cancer, plague, tsunamis, and hurricanes? I saw an article today about a two-headed baby. Isn't that a bit cruel? And did the devil create that baby that will live a life of torment? The devil doesn't have that power. I've read the Bible cover to cover. And only God creates life. So why does He create babies with two heads?

And it makes no sense whatsoever that Satan would torment sinners. If I'm a drunk atheist that snorts coke and sleeps with as many women as possible, why would I be Satan's enemy? Wouldn't I be his bro? If Satan is evil, then why would he go after sinners? If Satan were evil, it stands to reason that he would hate the non-sinners. If I'm a jerk and show up in hell, Satan should just high five me because I'm his boy.

But whenever you try to reason with the religious with logic, they just say, "God works in mysterious ways!" How convenient to always have unwaivering faith without any counterargument.
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If you want to argue the existence of God then go tot he philosophy section.
This is the religious forum. In this forum God or whatever you believe in exists.

You commit the same fallacy as everyone else. God is more than just benevolent. He is not a single characteristic.
Free will of course. Without choice there is no free will.
The earth is fallen and bad things happen. He said this all the way back in Genesis.

He doesn't create two headed babies. There is a thing called DNA and genetics and they are flawed at times.

Nope there are plenty of counter arguments it is as the bible says there will be people that hear and people that don't hear.
people that see and don't see.
 
LittleNipper said:
The reason that there is trouble in this world is because of Satan and Sin. So, if you wish to high 5 satan, I cannot imagine that you are not blind... Satan doesn't torment sinners in the Lake of Fire. He is just as trapped there as anyone else. Hell was created as a place to put satan and the fallen angels. What torments those in hell is the the realization that they threw away every opportunity to enter into heaven and turned their back on GOD. They will each be alone in a burning darkness to replay their life over and over and over,,,
Oh, and you are certainly allowed to question any religious belief here; unlike science class and public schools which disallow speaking in terms of the spiritual and Intelligent Design.
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questions are fine.

This forum is dedicated and limited to discussions of religion, faith, and spirituality. Threads/posts critical of religion and spiritual aspects are not allowed here and will result in a B/F/T Infraction + Thread Ban.
 
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