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If God Is All-Forgiving, When Will He Forgive Satan?

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Opopanax said:
So if God already knows what choices we're going to make, how can we possibly have free will? If I could make a choice other than the choice God knew I was going to make then he wouldn't be all knowing. So only if God is not all knowing do we have free will.
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Because "we" made the choice. I disagree with your last statement. Humans still have free will. God just knowns the decision. The choice is allowed to play out.
 
Clapton is God said:
What you say is certainly possible. To accept it I would have to accept Armenian theology over Reformed thinkers like Calvin. Before I do that I have to figure out how a bunch of men were able to figure out what books are inspired and which ones are not. Did God give them a formula to determine this? How could they even know?
Seems like before you have faith that the Bible is God's word you have to have faith that man is able to determine which words are from God and which are not.
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One of the gifts God gives believers is the Holy Spirit, which witnesses to them. The Biblical canon was established through a long process of prayer, meditation, discussion, and scholarship, and it was inspired by God through the Holy Spirit.
 
ludin said:
knowing what someone is going to choose doesn't mean they don't have a choice.
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I disagree. That is exactly what it means.. it means that their 'choice' is predetermined, and therefore not really a choice at all.
 
mike2810 said:
Because "we" made the choice. I disagree with your last statement. Humans still have free will. God just knowns the decision. The choice is allowed to play out.
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Did you 'make the choice', or is it only an illusion of free choice. That is the key issue when it comes to the people who believe in 'free will' and those that are skeptical about it. Knowing with 100% certainty makes the choice an illusion.
 
RAMOSS said:
I disagree. That is exactly what it means.. it means that their 'choice' is predetermined, and therefore not really a choice at all.
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Me knowing what you are going to choose does not affect your choice. It would only affect your choice if I interfered.
 
mike2810 said:
Because "we" made the choice. I disagree with your last statement. Humans still have free will. God just knowns the decision. The choice is allowed to play out.
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You could even change your mind God will know that you change your mind.
 
ludin said:
Me knowing what you are going to choose does not affect your choice. It would only affect your choice if I interfered.
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You, of course, are not the creator deity, who knew what choices were be made before creation was started. Nor, does it matter ..if you were 100% accurate in your knowledge of the future, the fact you were not 'affecting' the choice doesn't mean the appearance of a choice an illusion. So, I reject your statement for being wrong about the first point, and i will also point out that the entity that supposedly knows with perfection the future also has been given the quality of being the creator'.
 
RAMOSS said:
I disagree. That is exactly what it means.. it means that their 'choice' is predetermined, and therefore not really a choice at all.
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Agreed. Have you read anything by the Ralbag (Gersonides)? He was a Talmudic scholar who famous advanced the notion that God chooses not to have omniscience in conformity with the miracle of free will, and that free will, though illogical, is the most transcendent miracle of creation.
 
RAMOSS said:
You, of course, are not the creator deity, who knew what choices were be made before creation was started. Nor, does it matter ..if you were 100% accurate in your knowledge of the future, the fact you were not 'affecting' the choice doesn't mean the appearance of a choice an illusion. So, I reject your statement for being wrong about the first point, and i will also point out that the entity that supposedly knows with perfection the future also has been given the quality of being the creator'.
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There is no illusion. YOu have a choice A or B or C D E F. it doesn't matter. Someone knowing that you are going to pick C over the others or change your mind later to F has no affect on what you chose.
You can reject truth all you want it has no affect on me at all. The fact is that foreknowledge does not affect choice.

GOd wouldn't be God without perfect foreknowledge.
 
RAMOSS said:
Did you 'make the choice', or is it only an illusion of free choice. That is the key issue when it comes to the people who believe in 'free will' and those that are skeptical about it. Knowing with 100% certainty makes the choice an illusion.
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My response was my opinion/belief regarding the topic. As your response is also an opinion.
So can you prove it is "only an illusion of free choice"?

One could ask you to prove within 100% certainty that God does not exist.
 
RAMOSS said:
You, of course, are not the creator deity, who knew what choices were be made before creation was started. Nor, does it matter ..if you were 100% accurate in your knowledge of the future, the fact you were not 'affecting' the choice doesn't mean the appearance of a choice an illusion. So, I reject your statement for being wrong about the first point, and i will also point out that the entity that supposedly knows with perfection the future also has been given the quality of being the creator'.
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Can you disprove that life here is not real and that it is only a computer simulation with 100% certainty?
 
ludin said:
There is no illusion. YOu have a choice A or B or C D E F. it doesn't matter. Someone knowing that you are going to pick C over the others or change your mind later to F has no affect on what you chose.
You can reject truth all you want it has no affect on me at all. The fact is that foreknowledge does not affect choice.

GOd wouldn't be God without perfect foreknowledge.
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And , therefore, since free will and perfect foreknowledge can not exist with a creator god , there is no free will. That makes the concept of 'free will' and 'perfect foreknowledge' mutually exclusive.
 
mike2810 said:
Can you disprove that life here is not real and that it is only a computer simulation with 100% certainty?
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Who ever said it was a computer simulation?? Not me. Why are you trying to make me defend a position I do not hold?
 
RAMOSS said:
Who ever said it was a computer simulation?? Not me. Why are you trying to make me defend a position I do not hold?
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Let me ask another question since that one eluded you. The question was asked because of your line of thinking dealing with "illusion" of free will.

Your "illusion" response cannot be proven. It is your opinion. Much like someone cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. What someone believes is accepted by ones faith.
 
mike2810 said:
Let me ask another question since that one eluded you. The question was asked because of your line of thinking dealing with "illusion" of free will.

Your "illusion" response cannot be proven. It is your opinion. Much like someone cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. What someone believes is accepted by ones faith.
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The illusion of free will is a conclusion based on the premise of foreknowledge. Can you prove foreknowledge??
 
RAMOSS said:
And , therefore, since free will and perfect foreknowledge can not exist with a creator god , there is no free will. That makes the concept of 'free will' and 'perfect foreknowledge' mutually exclusive.
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and you are wrong because they can exist. God is powerful enough that he can allow free will and foreknowledge to exist.
 
RAMOSS said:
The illusion of free will is a conclusion based on the premise of foreknowledge. Can you prove foreknowledge??
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It is your premise of "The illusion of free will is a conclusion based on the premise of foreknowledge". Therefore it is up to you to prove foreknowledge does not exist.

I don't believe foreknowledge exists for humans. It is up to you to show that God does not have that ability. It is not up to me to show God does.
 
RAMOSS said:
Did you 'make the choice', or is it only an illusion of free choice. That is the key issue when it comes to the people who believe in 'free will' and those that are skeptical about it. Knowing with 100% certainty makes the choice an illusion.
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Christians have argued for hundreds of years on this point. It's hard to understand how God can be and act as multiple people who all have their own free will much less allow us, His creations, to have the same free will. But in order for us to be in the image of God we must have fee will, and for that free will to be valid and true the consequences of our decisions must be realized. All that can be said of this arrangement is that it's apparently what God wants. One might say that outcomes are predetermined in the sense that God knows what they will be, but that does not preclude us having free will.

Any understanding of God that puts limits on what He can do is not correct.

Somewhere in the Bible I think there is something about the things we don't know about God being infinite, or words to that effect.
 
ludin said:
and you are wrong because they can exist. God is powerful enough that he can allow free will and foreknowledge to exist.
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That is your claim and your belief. Now, show that it is right. Do you have something more than 'because i say so', or 'because xyz says so? ', From a logical point of view, that is contradictory. That is why there are some religious people that do not believe in perfect foreknowledge when it comes to God (see post 58 from Sherman123), and that is also why you will find others that do not believe in free will, for example, the Calvinists.
 
mike2810 said:
It is your premise of "The illusion of free will is a conclusion based on the premise of foreknowledge". Therefore it is up to you to prove foreknowledge does not exist.

I don't believe foreknowledge exists for humans. It is up to you to show that God does not have that ability. It is not up to me to show God does.
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YOu seem to be mixing up a premise and a conclusion. I am using the premise of 'perfect foreknowledge' as the conclusions 'no free will' That is what you are totally misunderstanding. Free will and perfect foreknowledge is mutually exclusive, particularly when the being with perfect foreknowledge is the creator. I am not saying which is true, I am just pointing out that those characteristics are mutually exclusive.
 
LowDown said:
Christians have argued for hundreds of years on this point. It's hard to understand how God can be and act as multiple people who all have their own free will much less allow us, His creations, to have the same free will. But in order for us to be in the image of God we must have fee will, and for that free will to be valid and true the consequences of our decisions must be realized. All that can be said of this arrangement is that it's apparently what God wants. One might say that outcomes are predetermined in the sense that God knows what they will be, but that does not preclude us having free will.

Any understanding of God that puts limits on what He can do is not correct.

Somewhere in the Bible I think there is something about the things we don't know about God being infinite, or words to that effect.
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When it comes to the concepts of 'free will' and 'perfect foreknowledge', we can only go by human understanding. It might very well be that the concepts are themselves flawed and meaningless.
 
RAMOSS said:
That is your claim and your belief. Now, show that it is right. Do you have something more than 'because i say so', or 'because xyz says so? ', From a logical point of view, that is contradictory. That is why there are some religious people that do not believe in perfect foreknowledge when it comes to God (see post 58 from Sherman123), and that is also why you will find others that do not believe in free will, for example, the Calvinists.
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So you are saying God is imperfect?
Then he is not omniscient yet He says that He is.

We are not dealing with human logic which quite frankly is very limited.
We are dealing with God's logic. With God all things are possible.
 
RAMOSS said:
When it comes to the concepts of 'free will' and 'perfect foreknowledge', we can only go by human understanding. It might very well be that the concepts are themselves flawed and meaningless.
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Then your are very limited in your argument and whatever god you believe in.
The God of the bible and the God of Abraham has no issue with free will and knowledge.

In fact He used that knowledge many times to direct His prophets on where to go.
That didn't affect their free will not to.

God told Moses to speak to the stone he struck it instead.
He told Jonah to go and preach in Niniva he chose to flee.

God had perfect foreknowledge but still allowed people to make a choice.
 
ludin said:
So you are saying God is imperfect?
Then he is not omniscient yet He says that He is.

We are not dealing with human logic which quite frankly is very limited.
We are dealing with God's logic. With God all things are possible.
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No, I am saying that by our understanding of what perfect foreknowledge is, and our understanding of what free will is, they are mutually exclusive.


I can only go by human understanding. If we invoke 'godly understanding'.. it make all arguments about God totally meaningless, because none of us are God, and none of us know what 'Godly Understanding' is.
 
ludin said:
So you are saying God is imperfect?
Then he is not omniscient yet He says that He is.

We are not dealing with human logic which quite frankly is very limited.
We are dealing with God's logic. With God all things are possible.
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While it is a minority opinion there is some famous Talmudic discourse on the question of Gods omniscience. Some held to the view that it was possible that God chooses to constrain his own knowledge of our moral decisions as part of the effort to create a universe in which the miracle of free will is possible. Gersonides (the Ralbag) was most famous for this. You might find it interesting as an alternative point of view.

=)
 
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