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The Talmud: What it is and what it isn't!

Sherman123 said:
there are very deep genetic ties between Ashekenaz and Sephardic Jews, more than they have in common with their local neighbors.
Click to expand...

In a genetic study published by the United States National Academy of Sciences, the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian Jews were compared with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. It found that despite long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level.
However, a monumental genetic study entitled, “The Journey of Man,” undertaken in 2002 by Dr. Spencer Wells, a geneticist from Stanford University, demonstrated that virtually all Europeans males carry the same genetic markers found within the male population of the Middle East on the Y chromosomes.
That is simply because the migration of human beings began in Africa and coursed its way through the Middle East and onward, stretching over millions of years. In short, we are all pretty much the same.
Consortiumnews.com

The idea of the Jews as a race was formed in the 19th Century in response to the ethnic-nationalisms burgeoning throughout post-Napoleonic east and central Europe. As Russians, Poles and Germans claimed their respective sets of heroic precursors, stressing their Orthodox or Catholic heritage to the exclusion of the Jews, certain Jewish intellectuals set out to invent their own national mythology. They didn’t do so cynically, but as prisoners of their moment. They did what they could in the ideological-scientific atmosphere they inhabited, and their endeavour became more urgent as antisemitism became a defining feature of neighbouring nationalisms.

Geneticists are now estimating that the Spanish Inquisition led to large amounts of intermarriage between nominally converted Muslims and Jews with Catholics in Spain after 1492.
 
calm said:
In a genetic study published by the United States National Academy of Sciences, the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian Jews were compared with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. It found that despite long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level.
However, a monumental genetic study entitled, “The Journey of Man,” undertaken in 2002 by Dr. Spencer Wells, a geneticist from Stanford University, demonstrated that virtually all Europeans males carry the same genetic markers found within the male population of the Middle East on the Y chromosomes.
That is simply because the migration of human beings began in Africa and coursed its way through the Middle East and onward, stretching over millions of years. In short, we are all pretty much the same.
Consortiumnews.com

The idea of the Jews as a race was formed in the 19th Century in response to the ethnic-nationalisms burgeoning throughout post-Napoleonic east and central Europe. As Russians, Poles and Germans claimed their respective sets of heroic precursors, stressing their Orthodox or Catholic heritage to the exclusion of the Jews, certain Jewish intellectuals set out to invent their own national mythology. They didn’t do so cynically, but as prisoners of their moment. They did what they could in the ideological-scientific atmosphere they inhabited, and their endeavour became more urgent as antisemitism became a defining feature of neighbouring nationalisms.

Geneticists are now estimating that the Spanish Inquisition led to large amounts of intermarriage between nominally converted Muslims and Jews with Catholics in Spain after 1492.
Click to expand...

Nope. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Furthermore the notion of Jews as a 'race' or 'people' hearkens back to antiquity, and some would say biblically.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC18733/
Jews worldwide share genetic ties : Nature News
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100603123707.htm
DNA Links Prove Jews Are a 'Race,' Says Genetics Expert - Jewish World News - Haaretz - Israel News Haaretz.com
 
This is also very far afield from the topic of the thread so I suggest we get back on track.
 
Sherman123 said:
Nope. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Furthermore the notion of Jews as a 'race' or 'people' hearkens back to antiquity, and some would say biblically.
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The problem is ..... I rely on science to make my points and you rely on religious belief when making your points.

Calm
 
calm said:
The problem is ..... I rely on science to make my points and you rely on religious belief when making your points.

Calm
Click to expand...

I just quoted a slew of genetic studies. Again let's return to the central topic of this thread.
 
Sherman123 said:
I just quoted a slew of genetic studies. Again let's return to the central topic of this thread.
Click to expand...

Well, the only reason I got involved with this thread was to say that the Talmud was really the Old Testament and went on to suggest that because the New Testament (Jesus Christ) basically told everyone that we were to forget and pay no more attention at all to the Old Testament because it was no longer valid. And, that Jews were no longer the chosen ones. And every promise made to the Jews in the Old Testament was recinded.

And, then I explained that this is why the Jewish Folks were constantly spitting on Christians in the Holy Land because they resented/hated the followers of Jesus Christ.

I listed quite a few links to several stories

The Talmud is actually what Christians (Those who believe in Jesus Christ) refer to as "The Old Testament".
But then the moderators contacted me and docked me a few points. You can still read it, but you need to get rid of your cookies first.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...d-and-isnt-post1065890005.html#post1065890005

The point I was making is that I can't understand why Christians support Israel so much, because the feeling is not mutual.

United Against Spitting
Father Samuel Aghoyan, a senior Armenian Orthodox cleric in Jerusalem's Old City, told the JPost “that he's been spat at by young Haredi (God fearing religious Jews) and national Orthodox Jews ‘about 15 to 20 times’ in the past decade”. Father Aghoyan added, "Every single priest in this church has been spat on. It happens day and night."
Similarly Father Athanasius, a Texas-born Franciscan monk who heads the Christian Information Centre in Jerusalem’s Old City, said he's been spat at by Orthodox Jews "about 15 times in the last six months".
Jewish spitting is not exactly breaking News. I myself have explored the issue more than once. The Israeli professor Israel Shahak commented on Jewish hatred towards Christianity and its symbolism, suggesting that “dishonouring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism.” According to Shahak, “spitting on the cross, and especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a Jew passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious Jews.”

https://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/...p-abominable-new-testament-throws-it-in-trash
» Gopstein: Christians Not Welcome in Jerusalem– IMEMC News
Jewish Extremists? Attacks Rattle Christians in Holy Land
Mouths filled with hatred - Magazine - Jerusalem Post

And, I have many more instances which I could post, but don't want to bore you or abuse you.

Calm
 
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calm said:
Well, the only reason I got involved with this thread was to say that the Talmud was really the Old Testament and went on to suggest that because the New Testament (Jesus Christ) basically told everyone that we were to forget and pay no more attention at all to the Old Testament because it was no longer valid.

And, then I explained that this is why the Jewish Folks were constantly spitting on Christians in the Holy Land because they resented/hated the followers of Jesus Christ.

I listed quite a few links to several stories

The Talmud is actually what Christians (Those who believe in Jesus Christ) refer to as "The Old Testament".
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...d-and-isnt-post1065890005.html#post1065890005

The point I was making is that I can't understand why Christians support Israel so much, because the feeling is not mutual.

United Against Spitting
Father Samuel Aghoyan, a senior Armenian Orthodox cleric in Jerusalem's Old City, told the JPost “that he's been spat at by young Haredi (God fearing religious Jews) and national Orthodox Jews ‘about 15 to 20 times’ in the past decade”. Father Aghoyan added, "Every single priest in this church has been spat on. It happens day and night."
Similarly Father Athanasius, a Texas-born Franciscan monk who heads the Christian Information Centre in Jerusalem’s Old City, said he's been spat at by Orthodox Jews "about 15 times in the last six months".
Jewish spitting is not exactly breaking News. I myself have explored the issue more than once. The Israeli professor Israel Shahak commented on Jewish hatred towards Christianity and its symbolism, suggesting that “dishonouring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism.” According to Shahak, “spitting on the cross, and especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a Jew passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious Jews.”

https://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/...p-abominable-new-testament-throws-it-in-trash
» Gopstein: Christians Not Welcome in Jerusalem– IMEMC News
Jewish Extremists? Attacks Rattle Christians in Holy Land
Mouths filled with hatred - Magazine - Jerusalem Post

And, I have many more instances which I could post, but don't want to bore you or abuse you.

Calm
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No, the Talmud is not what the Christians refer to as the 'Old Testament' that is factually inaccurate. Why would you think that? The whole point of this thread was to explain what the Talmud actually is, why would you think it's exactly what I just explained it isn't? On what basis?
 
Sherman123 said:
No, the Talmud is not what the Christians refer to as the 'Old Testament' that is factually inaccurate. Why would you think that? The whole point of this thread was to explain what the Talmud actually is, why would you think it's exactly what I just explained it isn't? On what basis?
Click to expand...

Oh! A large segment of the Talmud is based upon the Old Testament.

Actually, more to the point, the Old Testament is based on the Talmud and references to the coming of the Messiah or Jesus Christ.

The Talmud is all about waiting for the arrival of the Messiah, but when he (Jesus) arrived, the Jews refused to recognize him. They called him the false prophet. And, that the Messiah is still scheduled to arrive and at such time the Jewish Folks will have the whole world.

Is that better said?

Calm
 
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calm said:
Oh! A large segment of the Talmud is based upon the Old Testament.

Is that better?

Calm
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It's also held by its proponents to be a transmission of the Oral Torah as well. And yes that is better.
 
calm said:
Oh! A large segment of the Talmud is based upon the Old Testament.

Actually, more to the point, the Old Testament is based on the Talmud and references to the coming of the Messiah or Jesus Christ.

The Talmud is all about waiting for the arrival of the Messiah, but when he (Jesus) arrived, the Jews refused to recognize him. They called him the false prophet. And, that the Messiah is still scheduled to arrive and at such time the Jewish Folks will have the whole world.

Is that better said?

Calm
Click to expand...

No the Talmud is not "all about waiting for the arrival of the Moshiach". Only a very, very, very small portion of the Talmud (which is tremendously large) is devoted to him. I have no idea where you learned this but it is patently false.
 
Sherman123 said:
No the Talmud is not "all about waiting for the arrival of the Moshiach". Only a very, very, very small portion of the Talmud (which is tremendously large) is devoted to him. I have no idea where you learned this but it is patently false.
Click to expand...

Okay ....

Calm
 
The Laws of Torah have very many benefits. It is easy to get addicted to Social Media, but for the next 25 hours I am offline.

Likewise Kosher Food has many health benefits -- I do not eat any nonkosher seafood which is also very unhealthy.
 
Now I am back -- Sabbath is over.
 
Interesting historical thread. I didn't realize how recent a work the Talmud is until I did little google scholaring today, I just assumed it was an ongoing exegetic work of Jewish scholarship.

Why was adding to it ended? I can't find a clear answer to that, just references to some 6th century scholars being the 'definitive' compilers and such; surely new issues have come up since then for debate among rabbis? What has taken its place in that context?

Re calm's posts, he seems to want to know, among irrelevancies, just when Orthodox Jews begin their exhaustive historical genealogies of Jewish peoples, at least I think that's what one of his questions translate to, which should be a valid question given how obsessed some Jewish families were with that re hereditary priesthoods and the like, and some of the problems reconciling the Babylonian exiles with those Jews who weren't exiled and remained in Jerusalem, Galilee, et al, and reconciling the Jerusalem Talmud with the Babylonian Talmud.

It's also of interest to some Christians, as the differences between the genealogies of Jesus in the book of Matthew versus Luke's is sometimes used as a 'proof' the New Testament is 'fake', when in fact there were likely to be such differences in many Jewish genealogies of the pre-Christian era due to the Exile, and all that discrepancy really proves is that they used two different sources for their genealogies, and all that implies. This latter is of course off-topic, but I thought it might picque some interest in the thread and some other questions.

Also, not having read much of anything in the Talmud itself, is it similar in approach to topics as Thomas of Aquina's Summa Theologica is to Christian theology and law?
 
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calm said:
Prior to that "Jewish" was simply a religious belief.

I think that it is quite ironic that it took the confiscation of Palestinian Lands to introduce or recognize the term "Jewish People".

Calm
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This isn't born out by history; they have been a distinct people and culture since at least 1500 B.C., as far as I have looked into it, and most certainly since 1000 B.C. the Dual Monarchy period, some 800-700 B.C. or so. Their 'racial purity' laws were rather extensive, and probably still are for a significant percentage of the Orthodox; don't know what they are for Reformed types, and not particularly interested outside of historical interest.
 
Those interested in a good history book might like to get a copy of Joachim Jeremias's Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus for a great overview of culture and times of the creation of Christianity, from a non-theological perspective, and compare it with the New Testament references to get an idea of the context of many of the verses and books.
 
Oberon said:
Interesting historical thread. I didn't realize how recent a work the Talmud is until I did little google scholaring today, I just assumed it was an ongoing exegetic work of Jewish scholarship.

Why was adding to it ended? I can't find a clear answer to that, just references to some 6th century scholars being the 'definitive' compilers and such; surely new issues have come up since then for debate among rabbis? What has taken its place in that context?

Re calm's posts, he seems to want to know, among irrelevancies, just when Orthodox Jews begin their exhaustive historical genealogies of Jewish peoples, at least I think that's what one of his questions translate to, which should be a valid question given how obsessed some Jewish families were with that re hereditary priesthoods and the like, and some of the problems reconciling the Babylonian exiles with those Jews who weren't exiled and remained in Jerusalem, Galilee, et al, and reconciling the Jerusalem Talmud with the Babylonian Talmud.

It's also of interest to some Christians, as the differences between the genealogies of Jesus in the book of Matthew versus Luke's is sometimes used as a 'proof' the New Testament is 'fake', when in fact there were likely to be such differences in many Jewish genealogies of the pre-Christian era due to the Exile, and all that discrepancy really proves is that they used two different sources for their genealogies, and all that implies. This latter is of course off-topic, but I thought it might picque some interest in the thread and some other questions.

Also, not having read much of anything in the Talmud itself, is it similar in approach to topics as Thomas of Aquina's Summa Theologica is to Christian theology and law?
Click to expand...

I'm only glancingly familiar with the Summa Theologica but I think there are a few similarities. The Talmud is most famously known for its argumentative style in that it presents several Rabbinical figures, usually by name, who describe and debate a subject with the ultimate 'answer' often left unspecified. If I remember correctly the Theologica has its own version of thesis, point, counterpoint, conclusion, which strikes me as somewhat similar to the Talmud.
 
Oberon said:
Interesting historical thread. I didn't realize how recent a work the Talmud is until I did little google scholaring today, I just assumed it was an ongoing exegetic work of Jewish scholarship.

Why was adding to it ended? I can't find a clear answer to that, just references to some 6th century scholars being the 'definitive' compilers and such; surely new issues have come up since then for debate among rabbis? What has taken its place in that context?

Re calm's posts, he seems to want to know, among irrelevancies, just when Orthodox Jews begin their exhaustive historical genealogies of Jewish peoples, at least I think that's what one of his questions translate to, which should be a valid question given how obsessed some Jewish families were with that re hereditary priesthoods and the like, and some of the problems reconciling the Babylonian exiles with those Jews who weren't exiled and remained in Jerusalem, Galilee, et al, and reconciling the Jerusalem Talmud with the Babylonian Talmud.

It's also of interest to some Christians, as the differences between the genealogies of Jesus in the book of Matthew versus Luke's is sometimes used as a 'proof' the New Testament is 'fake', when in fact there were likely to be such differences in many Jewish genealogies of the pre-Christian era due to the Exile, and all that discrepancy really proves is that they used two different sources for their genealogies, and all that implies. This latter is of course off-topic, but I thought it might picque some interest in the thread and some other questions.

Also, not having read much of anything in the Talmud itself, is it similar in approach to topics as Thomas of Aquina's Summa Theologica is to Christian theology and law?
Click to expand...

That's a good question. The best way to answer it is to explain that the Talmud generally consists of two principle components: the Mishnah & the Gemara.

The Misnha was the written compilation of the Oral Law put together in the aftermath of the fall of the Hasmonean dynasty and the collapse of Jewish self-rule. This loss of authority and the diminishment of Jewish courts of law led to the need for the oral tradition to be codified so that it could be preserved even within the exile. This was largely completed around 200 C.E. though it obviously wasn't 'invented' in 200 C.E.

Once this was completed a flurry of activity was begun on what we call the Gemara which is the Rabbinical elucidation of the Mishnah. This began at approximately the time that the Mishnah was codified and continued for about a hundred and fifty years as the various Torah Academies synthesized analysis and became the Jerusalem Talmud around 350 C.E. with a the Babylonian Talmud (largely identical) being assembled and completed no later than 500 C.E.

To answer your question in a sense the Gemara is refined and added to in the form of responsa and the attendant halachic rulings. However it would be exceedingly rare to find a Rabbinical authority issue a responsa that clearly went against the prevailing opinion or dictate of the Talmud, and certainly not against the Mishnah since the Mishnah is Torah. But there are frequently novel issues which arise which are interpreted by Rabbinical authorities and whose rulings gain broad acceptance within the Jewish community. This is the process by which new law is codified and after it has been accepted in enough circles for a sustained period of time it is generally considered to be binding halacha.

More specifically to why we have the reverence for the Gemera and why it 'stopped' once that community completed its work and published the respective versions of the Talmud its primarily for two reasons. The first is the proximity that those Academies had to the Tannaim and those who put the Mosaic Code to paper in the form of the Mishnah. Consequently, and secondarily, the broad acceptance of these evaluations by the communities and scholars of the ensuing generation(s) gives even greater force and weight to the notion that they were 'correct'. Finally there are a host of reasons (too long for this post) why we have especial reverence for many of the specific Rabbis in the Gemera which grants its pages even greater authority and weight. For these reasons the Gemara is generally considered binding.
 
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