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No conflict between science and religion

Medusa

Medusa

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'And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.'

"Do not the Unbelievers see That the heavens and the earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?" [Al-Quran 21:30]

"It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course." [Al-Quran 21:33]


"With the power and skill Did We construct The Firmament: For it is We Who create The vastness of Space." [Al-Quran 51:47]

"Man We did create From a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him As (a drop of) sperm In a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood; Then of that clot We made A (foetus) lump; then We Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh; then We developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, The Best to create!" [Al-Quran 23:12-14]

Does man think that We Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers." [Al-Quran 75:3-4]
 
Medusa, I've never experienced any conflict between science and my faith. In fact, I see science as a testimony to the infinite imagination of our Creator.
 
nota bene said:
Medusa, I've never experienced any conflict between science and my faith. In fact, I see science as a testimony to the infinite imagination of our Creator.
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me too!
 
Medusa said:
'And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.'

"Do not the Unbelievers see That the heavens and the earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?" [Al-Quran 21:30]

"It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course." [Al-Quran 21:33]


"With the power and skill Did We construct The Firmament: For it is We Who create The vastness of Space." [Al-Quran 51:47]

"Man We did create From a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him As (a drop of) sperm In a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood; Then of that clot We made A (foetus) lump; then We Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh; then We developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, The Best to create!" [Al-Quran 23:12-14]

Does man think that We Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers." [Al-Quran 75:3-4]
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I've always enjoyed the ideas of Rabbi Gershon (the Gersonides) who stated, among other things, that in relation to a conflict between the Torah and scientific observation “no argument can nullify the reality that is perceived by the senses, for true opinion must follow reality but reality need not conform to opinion". He lived in the 13th Century but was a scientific realist in that he essentially believed that where the Torah appeared to contradict scientific observation that it was our understanding of the Torah that need to be revised, not the other way around. He was also, incidentally, a rejected of the notion that God is completely omniscient as it relates to free will, he believed that God knows all of our choices but not which choices we will make (or perhaps chooses not to know) and therefore allows free will to exist.
 
It's fine if people want to make religion and science mesh, but it's disingenuous and anti-historical to say that there's no inherent conflict between religion and science; it's a just a conflict that's more or less coming to an end and people are moving on from it. In an era where religion openly cedes that science gets the final say about the laws of nature, there's no obstruction and that's a good thing. But historically speaking, that agreement is not obvious from a straightforward reading of religious texts and it is also very modern. Ultimately, it's a very good thing, but cherrypicking quotes from the Bible, Qur'an, etc, is a pretty lame way of justifying that agreement. Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
 
Sherman123 said:
I've always enjoyed the ideas of Rabbi Gershon (the Gersonides) who stated, among other things, that in relation to a conflict between the Torah and scientific observation “no argument can nullify the reality that is perceived by the senses, for true opinion must follow reality but reality need not conform to opinion". He lived in the 13th Century but was a scientific realist in that he essentially believed that where the Torah appeared to contradict scientific observation that it was our understanding of the Torah that need to be revised, not the other way around. He was also, incidentally, a rejected of the notion that God is completely omniscient as it relates to free will, he believed that God knows all of our choices but not which choices we will make (or perhaps chooses not to know) and therefore allows free will to exist.
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God should know anything about us!
 
Medusa said:
God should know anything about us!
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I disagree and side with the Gersonides. If God knows our choices it obviates our free will. I believe he would choose not to know our decisions in order to preserve, at least the illusion, of free will. This in turn makes it more possible to have a meaningful relationship with his creations.
 
FieldTheorist said:
It's fine if people want to make religion and science mesh, but it's disingenuous and anti-historical to say that there's no inherent conflict between religion and science; it's a just a conflict that's more or less coming to an end and people are moving on from it. In an era where religion openly cedes that science gets the final say about the laws of nature, there's no obstruction and that's a good thing. But historically speaking, that agreement is not obvious from a straightforward reading of religious texts and it is also very modern. Ultimately, it's a very good thing, but cherrypicking quotes from the Bible, Qur'an, etc, is a pretty lame way of justifying that agreement. Oh well, different strokes for different folks.
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Nobody is being disingenuous is referring to the times in which we live and our views rather than what people long, long ago believed.

I’m not interested in “maklng” religion and science “mesh,” whatever that really means. I don’t know that religion has “ceded” anything, thus preventing “obstruction.” Facts, such as evolution, are what they are. We are fortunate to live in a time in which scientific facts are available to great numbers of people.

Whether it’s Aztec sacrifice or the Inquisition, the only point I can see in bringing history into the discussion is to try to discredit those who hold religious beliefs. Guilt by association or by connection to the past won’t work. Our time is “modern.”
The natural, observable, measureable world is what it is. It’s not in conflict with my religious beliefs; in fact, it’s a testimony to my beliefs. What people thought or believed in older times doesn’t inform my opinion at all, and please note that I have cited no Scripture, “cherry-picked” or not.
 
Sherman123 said:
I disagree and side with the Gersonides. If God knows our choices it obviates our free will. I believe he would choose not to know our decisions in order to preserve, at least the illusion, of free will. This in turn makes it more possible to have a meaningful relationship with his creations.
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Why. That would mean He was pretty limited.
 
Medusa said:
God should know anything about us!
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Or maybe not 'should' so much as 'could'. Why should She be interested in the details?
 
joG said:
Why. That would mean He was pretty limited.
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Why? Because he chooses not to know what we will do? Perhaps in limited circumstances he would grant himself foreknowledge, but anything more than that and it robs us of even the illusion of free will. If God exists than the most transcendent miracle after creation would be free will.
 
joG said:
Or maybe not 'should' so much as 'could'. Why should She be interested in the details?
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I am not GOD,can not know that
 
"The hills and the mountains, the rivers and fountains, the deeps of the oceans proclaim Him divine."

 
Sherman123 said:
I disagree and side with the Gersonides. If God knows our choices it obviates our free will. I believe he would choose not to know our decisions in order to preserve, at least the illusion, of free will. This in turn makes it more possible to have a meaningful relationship with his creations.
Click to expand...

why against free will ? he knows everything but not intervenes in our choices ,thats all.this is what we call fate!he knows but we dont know
 
nota bene said:
Nobody is being disingenuous is referring to the times in which we live and our views rather than what people long, long ago believed.
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I didn't realize that 2005 counted as "a long, long time ago."

I’m not interested in “maklng” religion and science “mesh,” whatever that really means. I don’t know that religion has “ceded” anything, thus preventing “obstruction.” Facts, such as evolution, are what they are.
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The latter sentence is the answer to the first sentence's question.

Whether it’s Aztec sacrifice or the Inquisition, the only point I can see in bringing history into the discussion is to try to discredit those who hold religious beliefs. Guilt by association or by connection to the past won’t work. Our time is “modern.”
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This is a separate topic of discussion, but the veracity of religion deeply depends upon things which happened in the past. Even the most tepidly religious person should agree to that, let alone a devout one.

The natural, observable, measureable world is what it is. It’s not in conflict with my religious beliefs; in fact, it’s a testimony to my beliefs.
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It's certainly your right to believe that. I think, even beginning with the framing, that it's complete nonsense, but you're certainly allowed to believe it.

please note that I have cited no Scripture, “cherry-picked” or not.
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You never were accused of doing so in the first place. The OP, however, did nothing else but cherrypick quotes from the Qur'an.
 
FieldTheorist said:
I didn't realize that 2005 counted as "a long, long time ago."



The latter sentence is the answer to the first sentence's question.



This is a separate topic of discussion, but the veracity of religion deeply depends upon things which happened in the past. Even the most tepidly religious person should agree to that, let alone a devout one.



It's certainly your right to believe that. I think, even beginning with the framing, that it's complete nonsense, but you're certainly allowed to believe it.



You never were accused of doing so in the first place. The OP, however, did nothing else but cherrypick quotes from the Qur'an.
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cherry picked? cherry pick from Qoran if you have more knowledge about it than me ! this is not philosophy forum,go to that forum to look soooo intelectual ,pleasee
 
Medusa said:
cherry picked? cherry pick from Qoran if you have more knowledge about it than me ! this is not philosophy forum,go to that forum to look soooo intelectual ,pleasee
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If you want an echo-chamber to discuss how there's no obvious problems between religion and science, that's fine. I can live with that. It's better than the alternative of people clinging to religion whilst rejecting science.
 
Speaking of "cherry-picking," I'd say that your Wiki link to Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District is just that. :roll:

And the "veracity" of religion isn't wholly dependent on the past but on one's experience as well.
 
Medusa said:
why against free will ? he knows everything but not intervenes in our choices ,thats all.this is what we call fate!he knows but we dont know
Click to expand...

If he knows what we will do he has known from the moment of creation, possibly even before the moment of creation. We are just acting out a script in a simulation which he devised. I reject that possibility because I find it grotesque.
 
I don't see a contradiction between science and a god. The existence of quantum mechanics, of general relativity, of stars, quasars are not theories about gods, but theories about reality, so they don't necessarily preclude (nor however, do they imply) a god figure.

I do see science as in contradiction of religion as written in the holy books of most religions. No the universe was not created in 7 days. And the sun was no more specifically created by a god than my lunch was created by one. And it isn't pulled across the sky by some dude in a chariot.
 
FieldTheorist said:
If you want an echo-chamber to discuss how there's no obvious problems between religion and science, that's fine. I can live with that. It's better than the alternative of people clinging to religion whilst rejecting science.
Click to expand...

And that's the either/or fallacy at work.
 
Nilly said:
I don't see a contradiction between science and a god. The existence of quantum mechanics, of general relativity, of stars, quasars are not theories about gods, but theories about reality, so they don't necessarily preclude (nor however, do they imply) a god figure.

I do see science as in contradiction of religion as written in the holy books of most religions. No the universe was not created in 7 days. And the sun was no more specifically created by a god than my lunch was created by one. And it isn't pulled across the sky by some dude in a chariot.
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'7 days' mean 7 levels

dont you really find any truth in those Quranic verses? do they conflict with science ?

Medusa said:
'And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.'

"Do not the Unbelievers see That the heavens and the earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?" [Al-Quran 21:30]

"It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course." [Al-Quran 21:33]


"With the power and skill Did We construct The Firmament: For it is We Who create The vastness of Space." [Al-Quran 51:47]

"Man We did create From a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him As (a drop of) sperm In a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood; Then of that clot We made A (foetus) lump; then We Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh; then We developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, The Best to create!" [Al-Quran 23:12-14]

Does man think that We Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers." [Al-Quran 75:3-4]
Click to expand...




sun does not run ?Galilei was accused of perversion by the church in 17th century .this book belongs to the 7th century
 
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ultra smart athes forget this forum is not philosophy forum
 
Medusa said:
'7 days' mean 7 levels

dont you really find any truth in those Quranic verses? do they conflict with science ?
Click to expand...

Some verses in almost all religions conflict with science. Other verses don't.

That's what happens when the books were written all those years ago.

Also, if we're going to base things on interpretations (like 7 levels/7 days) then I'd feel it important to say that some Muslim Pakistani Physics PhD students believe that earthquakes are caused by sinfulness. That's their interpretation and that's completely in contradiction with science, and in contradiction with the truth.
 
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