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Jewish Religions and The Prospect of Dissent

Oberon said:
I don't see what the problem is with understanding what Sherman says about Judaism.
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The problem lies with his not viewing it from the unbelievers point of view, which is the point of view that was being discussed.

From that point of view the unbeliever, if they are following the commandments, they are not following "his" commandments because they don't believe in the "him" to begin with and are only following a religious ritual.
The believers point of view is irrelevant to that.
 
Excon said:
The problem lies with his not viewing it from the unbelievers point of view, which is the point of view that was being discussed.

From that point of view the unbeliever, if they are following the commandments, they are not following "his" commandments because they don't believe in the "him" to begin with and are only following a religious ritual.
The believers point of view is irrelevant to that.
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We're all saying we don't care about that.
 
Sherman123 said:
We're all saying we don't care about that.
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Doh!
No you were not.
You were arguing something irrelevant to the point made which made you wrong. That is the only reason you do not care now.
 
Excon said:
Doh!
No you were not.
You were arguing something irrelevant to the point made which made you wrong. That is the only reason you do not care now.
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No, not at all. The point, however, seems to go right over your head. YOu are looking at it from a viewpoint with very Christian roots.. and you just can't seem to get the Jewish perspective on it.
 
RAMOSS said:
No, not at all. The point, however, seems to go right over your head. YOu are looking at it from a viewpoint with very Christian roots.. and you just can't seem to get the Jewish perspective on it.
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No RAMOSS.
The discussion was from the point of view of the unbeliever. Not from the point of a believer that you absurdly wanted to assert.
All of which has absolutely nothing to do with any Christian point of view, which again, is another lame claim especially, as I already revealed that I am Jewish.
 
Excon said:
No RAMOSS.
The discussion was from the point of view of the unbeliever. Not from the point of a believer that you absurdly wanted to assert.
All of which has absolutely nothing to do with any Christian point of view, which again, is another lame claim especially, as I already revealed that I am Jewish.
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Well, that is how you with to spin it. However, that doesn't matter to the Jewish members who are either humanistic Jews or Reconstrucionist Jews. As for your claims you are jewish, you certainly do not demonstrate the knowledge of Judaism someone who was brought up in the faith would have.
 
RAMOSS said:
Well, that is how you with to spin it. However, that doesn't matter to the Jewish members who are either humanistic Jews or Reconstrucionist Jews. As for your claims you are jewish, you certainly do not demonstrate the knowledge of Judaism someone who was brought up in the faith would have.
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Wrong.
You being unable to separate the two distinct views is the problem.
From the point of view of the unbeliever they are not following a "his" anything.
They are following a religious ritual and nothing more.
 
I think most of the Jews who have come into this thread have made clear what Excon isn't understanding and there isn't much more to say. If anyone has any other questions feel free to shoot a PM.
 
Sherman123 said:
I think most of the Jews who have come into this thread have made clear what Excon isn't understanding and there isn't much more to say. If anyone has any other questions feel free to shoot a PM.
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Your pronouncement is as wrong as it it is foolish.

Between the two of us, the lack of understanding has all come from you.

Again.
You being unable to separate the two distinct views is the problem.
From the point of view of the unbeliever they are not following a "his" anything.
They are following a religious ritual and nothing more.​

The view point of the believer is irrelevant to the viewpoint of the unbeliever.
 
Excon said:
Your pronouncement is as wrong as it it is foolish.

Between the two of us, the lack of understanding has all come from you.

Again.
You being unable to separate the two distinct views is the problem.
From the point of view of the unbeliever they are not following a "his" anything.
They are following a religious ritual and nothing more.​

The view point of the believer is irrelevant to the viewpoint of the unbeliever.
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I hope one day you can take the time to study Judaism and understand why the point you are advancing is irrelevant to the considerations of this faith. Furthermore harping on what the 'unbeliever' does or doesn't believe is a pedantic point in view of that. You've also failed to address the point raised by others about atheistic Reconstructionist or Progressive Judaism.

I'd start with Halackhic Man.
 
Sherman123 said:
I hope one day you can take the time to study Judaism and understand why the point you are advancing is irrelevant to the considerations of this faith. Furthermore harping on what the 'unbeliever' does or doesn't believe is a pedantic point in view of that. You've also failed to address the point raised by others about atheistic Reconstructionist or Progressive Judaism.

I'd start with Halackhic Man.
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And there you go again showing that you do not understand what was being spoken about.
You again go to the point of view of the believer which is irrelevant to the point of view of the unbeliever.

And no I haven't failed to address anything.

Again. Pay attention this time.

From the point of view of the unbeliever they are not following a "his" anything.
They are following a religious ritual and nothing more.​

Do you really not understand that?

In order to be following anything of "his" they would have to believe it is from this "him" to begin with. A unbeliever does not believe it the "him" and is therefore not following anything of "his".
 
Sherman123 said:
To summarize this division, this emphasis on practice over belief, on obedience to the law over faith, is one of the crowning differences between Judaism and Christianity. The man who believes in God and obeys none of the mitzvot is inferior to the man who doesn't believe in god, or who doubts, but carries out the mitzvot anyway. Belief alone is wholly insufficient in Judaism, indeed it is far less important than practice.
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I'm too lazy to read everything but the above is a good summary.

It is at the essence of my own maternal side for a half dozen generations....well educated German Jews...atheists going back to at least the early 1800's. For the most part still practicing Jewish law, traditions, rituals ( call them what you like). This came to the forefront when enlisting in the IDF. It was irrelevent what we believed but were expected to provide evidence of practice.
(My father's Eastern European heritage is much different)

In contrast Christianity has at its essence the acceptance of Christ. Deeds are not sufficient.
 
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