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Angels [W 82, 92]

Gathomas88 said:
Lol. Yeah... That's the thing about 2000 year old religions, particularly those as intellectually inclined as Catholicism. They've had plenty of time to think things through. :lol:
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I used to really like to read the stuff by Thomas Aquinas and others. Really interesting thoughts. It has been a while, though. Definitely lots to read over the centuries.
 
Amadeus said:
I think it's pretty cool that you're investigating your faith in this manner. You don't seem touchy when someone (like me) suggests that there might be some cross-cultural influence. Good on you for being open-minded.
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We all live on the same planet. We all influence each other. It makes for a more interesting world.
 
Amadeus said:
I think it's pretty cool that you're investigating your faith in this manner. You don't seem touchy when someone (like me) suggests that there might be some cross-cultural influence. Good on you for being open-minded.
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Okay, I was too scared to say this in the last reply, because I know it will get me in trouble and I'll be called more names. But, it is something that I can't stop thinking about, and that is "faith" as you put it. I don't even know what my "faith" is. I don't. Sure, I can look the word up and get the sanitized OED definition or whatever, just like with angels, but that wouldn't mean a whole lot. I know what I was taught, and I know how I feel about everything, but I don't know where the line exists with "faith." It is far more complicated than my personal beliefs on angels, because I am very concrete on that subject --- at least with one angel.

Faith, as it relates to me, is an entirely different subject all on its own. Okay, there. I said it.
 
Alyssa T. said:
Okay, I was too scared to say this in the last reply, because I know it will get me in trouble and I'll be called more names. But, it is something that I can't stop thinking about, and that is "faith" as you put it. I don't even know what my "faith" is. I don't. Sure, I can look the word up and get the sanitized OED definition or whatever, just like with angels, but that wouldn't mean a whole lot. I know what I was taught, and I know how I feel about everything, but I don't know where the line exists with "faith." It is far more complicated than my personal beliefs on angels, because I am very concrete on that subject --- at least with one angel.

Faith, as it relates to me, is an entirely different subject all on its own. Okay, there. I said it.
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No worries, and I didn't mean to suggest that you subscribed to a particular faith or doctrine. Some people are spiritual without a set faith. My mother is. She detests religion, but has a strong spiritual side. There isn't a wrong answer.
 
I have often wondered how many women appreciate that angels have always been male. Some of them seem to think we men have more of a diabolical nature.
 
matchlight said:
I have often wondered how many women appreciate that angels have always been male. Some of them seem to think we men have more of a diabolical nature.
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Why do you think they are all male? I didn't think they were male or female, to be honest.
 
Amadeus said:
My understanding is that Bodhisattva is a title or term, similar to Buddha. Whereas a Buddha is an 'awakened spirit', Bodhisattva are 'enlightened spirits'. They are high up on the karmic cycle (and most are deities or deva), but they are not necessarily divine, just as the Buddha himself wasn't divine.

The Buddha himself was probably (almost certainly) a Bodhisattva before becoming a Buddha. He was said to have lived as a god in previous cycles (which to Buddhists is just another form of being, no 'better' than human).
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I think you got it, bodhisattva are enlightened beings who choose to delay nirvannah to work for the complete enlightenment of all sentient beings,
breaking the karmic cycyle ( samsara) is how I recall it.

There are different types depending on what school (Mahāyāna /Theravāda)..... it gets really complicated

Tara is the one I always think about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_(Buddhism)
 
Alyssa T. said:
Okay, I was too scared to say this in the last reply, because I know it will get me in trouble and I'll be called more names. But, it is something that I can't stop thinking about, and that is "faith" as you put it. I don't even know what my "faith" is. I don't. Sure, I can look the word up and get the sanitized OED definition or whatever, just like with angels, but that wouldn't mean a whole lot. I know what I was taught, and I know how I feel about everything, but I don't know where the line exists with "faith." It is far more complicated than my personal beliefs on angels, because I am very concrete on that subject --- at least with one angel.

Faith, as it relates to me, is an entirely different subject all on its own. Okay, there. I said it.
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mine has evolved over time.
I was fine enough with Catholicism when I was a kid. But I was also interested in eastern thought so I started with Taoism
and then Confucianism..Somewhere along the line I then got into Buddhist thought.
Most of this was more philosophical then"faith".
I gave up trying to figure out Hinduism..too many gods!! But I liked the concept of self-perfection without revealed religions
( revealed means directly given from God -Islam/Christianity/Judaism) ...

Anyways it's to the point I'm circling back to Christianity, as I'm getting older, and I'm realizing how difficult it is to obtain enlightenment on our own.
So I take concepts from each, and use them to understand meta-physics, but I'm kina cafeteria about my actual faith..still
 
annata said:
mine has evolved over time.
I was fine enough with Catholicism when I was a kid. But I was also interested in eastern thought so I started with Taoism
and then Confucianism..Somewhere along the line I then got into Buddhist thought.
Most of this was more philosophical then"faith".
I gave up trying to figure out Hinduism..too many gods!! But I liked the concept of self-perfection without revealed religions
( revealed means directly given from God -Islam/Christianity/Judaism) ...

Anyways it's to the point I'm circling back to Christianity, as I'm getting older, and I'm realizing how difficult it is to obtain enlightenment on our own.
So I take concepts from each, and use them to understand meta-physics, but I'm kina cafeteria about my actual faith..still
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Yeah, that makes so much sense. I really get it, I do. Good on you for searching and working on it. So much better than just giving up. I don't like giving up on things, and always try to work to make myself a better person. After all, I am the only person I can control and make better. It's a lot of work, and I get sidetracked at times -- sometimes pretty easily -- but it is an interesting and worthwhile journey. That's for sure. I don't care what anybody else says. Nope.
 
Alyssa T. said:
Why do you think they are all male? I didn't think they were male or female, to be honest.
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I don't claim to be an angel expert, but I understood that at least all the highest-ranking ones had men's names--Michael, Gabriel, and so on. Having one of those names myself, maybe I just like to think that's so. Once or twice, I've had a woman call me "Angel," but she'd probably just had a little too much wine.
 
matchlight said:
I don't claim to be an angel expert, but I understood that at least all the highest-ranking ones had men's names--Michael, Gabriel, and so on. Having one of those names myself, maybe I just like to think that's so. Once or twice, I've had a woman call me "Angel," but she'd probably just had a little too much wine.
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Yeah, that makes sense. I was looking at the link in another post, and the seven names in it stood out. My brain likes to play with things, and I came up with seven female names by changing only a couple things in each name. It might be controversial, but it was fun. Girls can be nice, too. We can.
 
Alyssa T. said:
Yeah, that makes sense. I was looking at the link in another post, and the seven names in it stood out. My brain likes to play with things, and I came up with seven female names by changing only a couple things in each name. It might be controversial, but it was fun. Girls can be nice, too. We can.
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Oh yes, women can be very nice. I've met some. The problem is getting them to stay nice--some seem to have terrible tempers. It's not fun being screamed at when you haven't done one wrong thing.

I'll have to bring that question up in conversation with women--find out which sex they think is more angelic. I think I already know the answer, but at least I can point to my name, and protest.
 
matchlight said:
Oh yes, women can be very nice. I've met some. The problem is getting them to stay nice--some seem to have terrible tempers. It's not fun being screamed at when you haven't done one wrong thing.

I'll have to bring that question up in conversation with women--find out which sex they think is more angelic. I think I already know the answer, but at least I can point to my name, and protest.
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Okay, sorry. I didn't mean to bring up all those issues. Just thought angels could be female just as much as they can be seen as male.
 
Alyssa T. said:
But why do those seven only have male names? There are so many that get mentioned, but the names don't get mentioned. I thought they weren't supposed to be male or female?
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The Bible (Hebrew Old Testament books/scrolls and Greek New Testament books/scrolls) most commonly say/says "The Angel Of God" and does not mention any names.

In other places it mentions names. The 7 names in the wiki summary are the only ones with names though.

St. Gabriel is the angel mentioned who visited Elizabeth and Mary regarding the annunciations of St. John and Jesus.

If there WERE any female angels you would think THEY would have been sent instead of male ones to these two women, would you not ??

Ergo, there are probably no female angels.

Ergo, we definitely don't know of any female angels.

Angel is an English word that comes from the Greek word aggelos -- meaning messenger.

It may be that the females in Heaven simply do other jobs -- like sing in the choir -- rather than messenger work.
 
Alyssa T. said:
Yeah, that makes so much sense. I really get it, I do. Good on you for searching and working on it. So much better than just giving up. I don't like giving up on things, and always try to work to make myself a better person. After all, I am the only person I can control and make better. It's a lot of work, and I get sidetracked at times -- sometimes pretty easily -- but it is an interesting and worthwhile journey. That's for sure. I don't care what anybody else says. Nope.
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it's the journey of a lifetime for some of us. Some hear God's word and are content.
If I had just one piece of advice to give it's never turn your back on goodness/mercy/compassion no matter how it's expressed,
and never give evil any quarter ( shelter) in your life. The rest works itself out.
 
annata said:
it's the journey of a lifetime for some of us. Some hear God's word and are content.
If I had just one piece of advice to give it's never turn your back on goodness/mercy/compassion no matter how it's expressed,
and never give evil any quarter ( shelter) in your life. The rest works itself out.
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Yep, so true. Good tears. Sure are. Goodness can come from anywhere, anyone, and at anytime. I just love feeling it when it arrives. Thank you!
 
Riveroaks said:
The Bible (Hebrew Old Testament books/scrolls and Greek New Testament books/scrolls) most commonly say/says "The Angel Of God" and does not mention any names.

In other places it mentions names. The 7 names in the wiki summary are the only ones with names though.

St. Gabriel is the angel mentioned who visited Elizabeth and Mary regarding the annunciations of St. John and Jesus.

If there WERE any female angels you would think THEY would have been sent instead of male ones to these two women, would you not ??

Ergo, there are probably no female angels.

Ergo, we definitely don't know of any female angels.

Angel is an English word that comes from the Greek word aggelos -- meaning messenger.

It may be that the females in Heaven simply do other jobs -- like sing in the choir -- rather than messenger work.
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I guess, but I still don't believe angels are male or female. That is just me. I feel the same about, well, I won't get into all that. Just gonna stick with angels in this thread.
 
Alyssa T. said:
I guess, but I still don't believe angels are male or female. That is just me. I feel the same about, well, I won't get into all that. Just gonna stick with angels in this thread.
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It all depends on where do angels even come from and how do they become angels?

Do you think God is male or female?

Do you think there are more than one God?

Do you think that people become angels and then go to live with God?

If people become angels and go to live with God then there is definitely gender in Heaven.

If Jesus is male and his Father is male then there is definitely gender in Heaven.

If Holy Mary is Queen of Apostles and she lives in Heaven then there is definitely gender in heaven.

I doubt Holy Mary would ever be sent as a messenger (angel) but plenty of people have claimed to see visions of her, so there is definitely gender in Heaven.

If Heaven follows the Catholic Church as a model then Holy Mary is the Mother Superior and Jesus is the Pope there. And then everyone else is a priest or a nun and there is still definitely gender in Heaven.

It would therefore appear that angelic messenger is a male role not female.
 
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Riveroaks said:
It all depends on where do angels even come from and how do they become angels?

Do you think God is male or female?

Do you think there are more than one God?

Do you think that people become angels and then go to live with God?

If people become angels and go to live with God then there is definitely gender in Heaven.

If Jesus is male and his Father is male then there is definitely gender in Heaven.

If Holy Mary is Queen of Apostles and she lives in Heaven then there is definitely gender in heaven.

I doubt Holy Mary would ever be sent as a messenger (angel) but plenty of people have claimed to see visions of her, so there is definitely gender in Heaven.
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Yeah, these are all wonderful questions, and I wish more people would talk about them. It could stimulate some interesting conversation, but I guess running around other threads and calling people names can be fun too. Not for me, though.

I notice gender words a lot, and certainly notice the women that were mentioned in our classes and readings in Mass. I have thought a lot about that terribly young girl, Mary, and her acceptance of the mission thrust upon her.

I don't know what happens when we die. I don't know what we become, look like, or do after we leave the physical world. I do know that we leave the body. I do know that something like angels exist. I saw it all with my own eyes. What a don't know is what happens next. That is going to be a mystery all the way up until the final breath, and that is okay, too.
 
Alyssa T. said:
Yeah, these are all wonderful questions, and I wish more people would talk about them. It could stimulate some interesting conversation, but I guess running around other threads and calling people names can be fun too. Not for me, though.

I notice gender words a lot, and certainly notice the women that were mentioned in our classes and readings in Mass. I have thought a lot about that terribly young girl, Mary, and her acceptance of the mission thrust upon her.

I don't know what happens when we die. I don't know what we become, look like, or do after we leave the physical world. I do know that we leave the body. I do know that something like angels exist. I saw it all with my own eyes. What a don't know is what happens next. That is going to be a mystery all the way up until the final breath, and that is okay, too.
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My brother in law in spirit came to say goodbye to me shortly after he died.

I would not call him an angel however.

It was he, just in a ghostly form.

In the Greek New Testament people who die first go to a spiritual paradise or a spiritual prison.

At Christ's resurrection from the tomb other tombs were opened as well and there were others who were resurrected at that time.

On the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, St. Peter, St. James, and St. John there appeared Moses and Elijah, and also God The Father himself.

So according to the New Testament then, something does happen after mortal death.

Ancient pre-Christian philosophers have independently concluded that "mind" or "soul" or "essence" is immortal and survives death.

Post-Christian romanticist philosophers like Augustine and Aquinas and others have always blended the revelations of Christianity into their philosophies.

Descartes is post-Christian but he started from scratch with his thought process only and hence he is considered the first of the modern empiricist (experimental) philosophers who have again separated religion from philosophy.

Modern philosophy combines science and philosophy and leaves out religion.
 
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Riveroaks said:
My brother in law in spirit came to say goodbye to me shortly after he died.

I would not call him an angel however.

It was he, just in a ghostly form.

In the Greek New Testament people who die first go to a spiritual paradise or a spiritual prison.

At Christ's resurrection from the tomb other tombs were opened as well and there were others who were resurrected at that time.

On the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, St. Peter, St. James, and St. John there appeared Moses and Elijah, and also God The Father himself.

So according to the New Testament then, something does happen after mortal death.

Ancient pre-Christian philosophers have independently concluded that "mind" or "soul" or "essence" is immortal and survives death.

Post-Christian romanticist philosophers like Augustine and Aquinas and others have always blended the revelations of Christianity into their philosophies.
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Yeah, one of my aunts told me she saw her dad, my grandfather, not long after he died. A couple times, I think, and it was in his old house. Strange. What gets real strange is how people react to those things, and whether or not they want to talk about it -- or believe it if somebody else says it. Even when it is family. Some of our family don't believe her, nor do they even want to hear about it. I don't know either way. Could've happened, or maybe not. It's all so difficult to understand.
 
Riveroaks said:
It all depends on where do angels even come from and how do they become angels?

Do you think God is male or female?

Do you think there are more than one God?

Do you think that people become angels and then go to live with God?

If people become angels and go to live with God then there is definitely gender in Heaven.

If Jesus is male and his Father is male then there is definitely gender in Heaven.

If Holy Mary is Queen of Apostles and she lives in Heaven then there is definitely gender in heaven.

I doubt Holy Mary would ever be sent as a messenger (angel) but plenty of people have claimed to see visions of her, so there is definitely gender in Heaven.

If Heaven follows the Catholic Church as a model then Holy Mary is the Mother Superior and Jesus is the Pope there. And then everyone else is a priest or a nun and there is still definitely gender in Heaven.

It would therefore appear that angelic messenger is a male role not female.
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Angels are created beings, so, Mary could never be sent as an "angel".
 
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