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Voodoo and Christianity

nota bene said:
The question is "Which Christian church? Where is this church? Does it have a web link?"

These are breathtakingly stupid questions, given that what has been under discussion is "one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church"--the universal Church.

As has already also been discussed, this Church is the entire Body of Christ, not buildings or websites.

I hope that this partial answer is "real" enough for you.
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Why can't you just say the Catholic Church, Methodist Church, Baptist Church or whatever?
 
nota bene said:
The question is "Which Christian church? Where is this church? Does it have a web link?"

These are breathtakingly stupid questions, given that what has been under discussion is "one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church"--the universal Church.

As has already also been discussed, this Church is the entire Body of Christ, not buildings or websites.

I hope that this partial answer is "real" enough for you.
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Then back to the original aspect to this tangent of which church, ... Where in the Body of Christ are Catholicism, Mormonism, Baptism, or any other "accepted by you and what's his face" religion specified as valid which is what the original claim this tangent about which church came from. Anyway, go back and follow the links backward. In the end, there is still absolutely no authority capable of objectively disallowing Voodoo from being a Christian sect, just as there are none that can affirm that the aforementioned three are objectively Christian.
 
No, Vodou was the native religion of continental Africa prior to the arrival of European Christianity. Still is, actually.

Haitian Vodou is a different variety. They were a slave nation and had to take on aspects of Christianity in order to save face with the slave masters while continuing their true traditions in private. That's why you see Haitian Vodou being mixed with Christian Saints. They ceremonially put the voodoo spirits into the saint statues and worshipped their deities in concealment.

Vodou is definitely NOT from Christianity. It existed in Africa as many different offshoots before Christianity ever arrived, though it does use Christianity to conceal itself.
 
it's just me said:
We have 2000 years of history and writing on the subject, it is ours for the reading.

I am sure Joel Osteen has the best of intentions, but I think he is mistaken if it's Christianity he is attempting to preach. You can be right and still not be Christian.

I know Christians all over the world, Christianity is not all that different, it's what people are willing to call Christianity that's different.
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My apologies for just getting back to this thread...

You are hitting on my points for me. We do have quite a long time on this subject, with plenty of supporting writing and interpretation. My point on what is and is not Christianity (from a position of someone being an authority) is the wide range of interpretation. There are over 20,000 different denominations of Christianity, and it would be a real misrepresentation to suggest they all agree on biblical interpretations. That is what I am trying to get at with "authority on the subject" of practicing Christianity.

We cannot be for certain that Joel Osteen (our example here) has the best of intentions, but even if so that message and the practice in that congregation is not quite the same as some small Baptist Church in rural south Georgia. Even the core interpretation of religious text is not quite apples to apples. That means we have no difference between "what people are willing to call Christianity" and how Christianity is practiced. Ultimately it comes down to the people themselves, as individuals or as a congregation, on the practice of Christianity.

Now it stands to reason that you perhaps would claim authority on the subject, or even go so far as to judge what is and is not Christianity. My main point, and that of others in this thread that agree with me, is we really have no honest black or white standard of Christianity to suggest you must totally agree with this standard, or otherwise it is not Christianity. Christianity is different all over the world, and when you get down to it we do not even have consensus on Christianity within a given city in the US.
 
winston53660 said:
Why can't you just say the Catholic Church, Methodist Church, Baptist Church or whatever?
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Because there is a distinction between churches of a particular denomination and the whole of the "one holy, catholic, and apostolic church," just as there is a difference between a building or collection of buildings and the Body of Christ.
 
Northern Light said:
No, Vodou was the native religion of continental Africa prior to the arrival of European Christianity. Still is, actually.

Haitian Vodou is a different variety. They were a slave nation and had to take on aspects of Christianity in order to save face with the slave masters while continuing their true traditions in private. That's why you see Haitian Vodou being mixed with Christian Saints. They ceremonially put the voodoo spirits into the saint statues and worshipped their deities in concealment.

Vodou is definitely NOT from Christianity. It existed in Africa as many different offshoots before Christianity ever arrived, though it does use Christianity to conceal itself.
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The claim isn't that Voodoo is from Christianity, but that since it incorporates Christian beliefs the association is legit. Just as Japan's religion was originally Shinto, it later incorporated aspects of Buddhism and Taoism and there was a syncretism of beliefs.
 
OrphanSlug said:
You are hitting on my points for me. We do have quite a long time on this subject, with plenty of supporting writing and interpretation. My point on what is and is not Christianity (from a position of someone being an authority) is the wide range of interpretation. There are over 20,000 different denominations of Christianity, and it would be a real misrepresentation to suggest they all agree on biblical interpretations.
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Some denominations dunk people, other sprinkle. Some denominations serve crackers and grape juice in shot glasses, others use wine and the common cup. Those are both sacraments, they are both baptism and communion. They all believe Jesus was God incarnate, they do not have different Gospels. They all believe he was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, and on the third day he rose again. Baptists believe that. Catholics believe that. Methodists believe that. We believe that. The only people who don't believe that are the ones we reject as being Christian. This is not rocket science. Yet one of you thinks that the only requirement for being Christian is to say you are. If that's the case, Richard Dawkins is a "Christian" because he called himself a "cultural Christian", how ridiculous is that?

Now it stands to reason that you perhaps would claim authority on the subject, or even go so far as to judge what is and is not Christianity. My main point, and that of others in this thread that agree with me, is we really have no honest black or white standard of Christianity to suggest you must totally agree with this standard, or otherwise it is not Christianity.
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We do have one, and the fact that you don't know what it is is revealing. If Christianity is different all over the world, how is it different?
 
Amadeus said:
The claim isn't that Voodoo is from Christianity, but that since it incorporates Christian beliefs the association is legit. Just as Japan's religion was originally Shinto, it later incorporated aspects of Buddhism and Taoism and there was a syncretism of beliefs.
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It only did that superficially, to appease the colonizers so they wouldn't kill them.

Vodou has nothing to do with Christianity in an actual fact.
 
Northern Light said:
It only did that superficially, to appease the colonizers so they wouldn't kill them.

Vodou has nothing to do with Christianity in an actual fact.
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Whatever the original reason, Voodoo does in fact incorporate aspects of Christianity and practitioners worship the same God. Not sure how you can say it has nothing to do with Christianity.
 
Amadeus said:
Whatever the original reason, Voodoo does in fact incorporate aspects of Christianity and practitioners worship the same God. Not sure how you can say it has nothing to do with Christianity.
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Ok :) You're free to believe whatever you wish about it.
 
Northern Light said:
Ok :) You're free to believe whatever you wish about it.
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I'm not trying to be difficult. I just don't see how worshiping the same God, under the same Christian denomination, disqualifies you from being associated with Christianity. I don't want to believe something that's not true, so if you or anyone has a contrary argument, I'm listening.
 
Amadeus said:
I'm not trying to be difficult. I just don't see how worshiping the same God, under the same Christian denomination, disqualifies you from being associated with Christianity. I don't want to believe something that's not true, so if you or anyone has a contrary argument, I'm listening.
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They don't worship the same God. Just because you googled "Voodoo" and read a Wikipedia entry doesn't mean your knowledge is accurate. West African Vodun was taking place long before Christianity ever entered the picture, and contains elements of many different regional belief systems. When Christianity arrived, it became incorporated. It may seem like a minor academic distinction to you, but to practitioners it's a big deal. Christianity exists UNDER Vodun in those areas, and is not equal to it, nor does Vodun fall under Christianity.

You don't get to call Vodun a Christian system just because they adopted spiritual elements of the colonizers, anymore than you get to call Mayans Christians for being colonized by the Spanish. The roots of their belief systems predate Judeochristian values. As an outsider, you're only judging them superficially. Just because they seem to pray to saints and Christian things doesn't mean that's what they're actually doing, and you won't ever know the truth of that unless you're an initiate.

It's also important to distinguish the different kinds of traditions. There's Haitian Vodou, African Vodun (the progenitor), and Hoodoo in the United States.
 
Northern Light said:
They don't worship the same God. Just because you googled "Voodoo" and read a Wikipedia entry doesn't mean your knowledge is accurate. West African Vodun was taking place long before Christianity ever entered the picture, and contains elements of many different regional belief systems. When Christianity arrived, it became incorporated.
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I find it interesting that you chastised me and then confirmed my assertion in the same paragraph.
 
Amadeus said:
I find it interesting that you chastised me and then confirmed my assertion in the same paragraph.
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Uh, no I didn't. Taking on elements of Christianity is one thing, saying that Vodun is a Christian system because they worship the same God is an entirely different statement.

A person walking around with a cross around their neck does not a Christian make.

Anyway, I'm not going to continue arguing with someone who needs to do some basic research on the subject. You can keep asserting that Vodun = Christian but you'll be wrong. Have a nice day.
 
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