• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds. [W:210]

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

The day Christianity is treated the same as the religions of Norse Gods and Ancient Greeks all the better.

It will just be replaced by another religion, so I see no point in celebrating by the death of a relatively benevolent faith.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

So what would your liberal minister Father say if he knew that you blamed the falling away of the congregation on liberals?

1. You are misrepresenting me - I blame social liberalization of the church, and a willingness to toss the "uncomfortable" parts of scripture and doctrine (Individual liberals can or can not be part of that process) for accelerating the loss among mainstream denominations.

2. When this comes up, usually I point out that the Churches that have liberalized (on SSM, for example) typically have a large drop-off in membership in the following years, and he responds that yes, but all mainline churches are still net losing members (and, at current, they are, though SBC has wrapped up some good decades of growth prior to that).



Everyone likes to claim that it's all those mean old social conservatives who can't get with the times who are responsible for declining Christianity, but the numbers tell us that it is mostly liberals leaving the faith. The more conservative churches have been dropping much slower or, in some cases steadily growing.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds - BBC News

The number of Americans who identify as Christian has fallen nearly eight percentage points in only seven years, according to a new survey.

Pew Research Center found that 71% of Americans identified as Christian in 2014 - down from 78% in 2007.

In the same period, Americans identifying as having no religion grew from 16% to 23%.

Fifty-six million Americans do not observe any religion, the second largest community after Evangelicals.



Does this surprise our American members? What impact do you think this will have on Ameerica socially and politically in the future if this number continues to fall?

Also why do you think these numbers are dropping? Failure of the church or is it a disconnect with young people and organised Religion ?

In my personal opinion, our species is growing intellectually. The more exposed we are to literature, mathematics, science, etc, the more we question. There was a time the world thought the earth was flat. Many people find it difficult to accept the theory a virgin gave birth and that the child of this miraculous birth walked on water, defying gravity. The younger generation is more accepting of others and is willing to explore new found freedoms. The older generation of Christians with their orthodox religion, tend to separation from Gays, enjoy systemic white supremacy. The Church's extremism regardings social affairs, same-sex parters, etc, is one of the reasons Christianity parishioner attendance is dwindling.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

You seem to be suggesting that orthodoxy equals extremism.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

:shrug: broadly, the rate at which the mainstream churches are losing membership is the extent to which they liberalize. As churches cease to stand for anything, folks see little reason to stand with them.
I have no proof, but I completely disagree with you. I left my religion when the priest starting preaching politics and telling the congregation who to vote for. Christianity in this country,the christianity in the news, is hateful and arrogant, something no God would be. When the churches go back to being places of peace and refuge maybe the flocks will return.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

I guess I'm blessed. I've attended church faithfully all my life but have never been told how to vote, not even once. Not in a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Episcopalian, AME, Roman Catholic, or black evangelical Pentecostal church or a synagogue.
 
US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

I guess I'm blessed. I've attended church faithfully all my life but have never been told how to vote, not even once. Not in a Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Episcopalian, AME, Roman Catholic, or black evangelical Pentecostal church or a synagogue.

The Catholic and Lutheran Churches I went to were pretty good on that front, and aside from general commentary about the sanctity of life or violence on television, typical politics was not really mentioned with much intention. Most of the nondenominational evangelical groups didn't bother talking politics either. They were just focused on emotional connection with God and Jesus (which, for many Catholics is seen as eccentricity, but not much more).

Soon as I stepped into a Southern Baptist church. Whew boy. Aside from the polite " let's convert the Catholic and criticize the Pope" routine I personally got within 30 seconds of them meeting me (an odd choice when eating a standing-up brunch with the congregants, if you ask me) there was plenty of preaching to the congregation about how John Kerry was bad for the country and Bush was closer to God and country.

Nice people, but definitely a different crowd.
 
Last edited:
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

:shrug: broadly, the rate at which the mainstream churches are losing membership is the extent to which they liberalize. As churches cease to stand for anything, folks see little reason to stand with them.

Perhaps for many faiths, but I would say that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved quite successfully over the centuries. Many of its traditions changed to improve relations with the laity, and it strengthened their position in the world of religion.

It's kept its substance--and there's always been debate in where that substance should be--, but it has also often times correctly identified when to "modernize" or "liberalize."
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

The Catholic and Lutheran Churches I went to were pretty good on that front, and aside from general commentary about the sanctity of life or violence on television, typical politics was not really mentioned with much intention. Most of the nondenominational evangelical groups didn't bother talking politics either. They were just focused on emotional connection with God and Jesus (which, for many Catholics is seen as eccentricity, but not much more).

Soon as I stepped into a Southern Baptist church. Whew boy. Aside from the polite " let's convert the Catholic and criticize the Pope" routine I personally got within 30 seconds of them meeting me (an odd choice when eating a standing-up brunch with the congregants, if you ask me) there was plenty of preaching to the congregation about how John Kerry was bad for the country and Bush was closer to God and country.

Nice people, but definitely a different crowd.

:lol: Yes. See I think that's why I have such issue with organized religion. I grew up Southern Baptist, and now? I'd rather never go to church another day in my life, and just have a quiet relationship with God on my own, than to go to a Baptist church.

I went to beliefnet.com or .org or whatever, because my beliefs are so out of whack with what most religions align with - I'm a potpourri of sorts. :lol: So I took this test and it asked me about this, and that, and the other, and it ended up telling me that my religion aligned more closely with Greek Orthodox than anything else. Too bad I'm nowhere near a Greek Orthodox church. Nor am I Greek. :D
 
US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

:lol: Yes. See I think that's why I have such issue with organized religion. I grew up Southern Baptist, and now? I'd rather never go to church another day in my life, and just have a quiet relationship with God on my own, than to go to a Baptist church.

I went to beliefnet.com or .org or whatever, because my beliefs are so out of whack with what most religions align with - I'm a potpourri of sorts. :lol: So I took this test and it asked me about this, and that, and the other, and it ended up telling me that my religion aligned more closely with Greek Orthodox than anything else. Too bad I'm nowhere near a Greek Orthodox church. Nor am I Greek. :D

Eh, my motto is that from time to time, it is best to keep up appearances for public image and family connection, while privately observing little to nothing.

In fact, in not particularly ashamed of what catholic and Protestant alike view as the Church's corrupt times. I wasn't quite swayed that Priests and Cardinals secretly banging and having children, and running global politics was necessarily a bad thing (well, aside from the fact that Kingdoms allowed the Church to have that much sway in the first place--tisk tisk). I'm a bastard, I know.

I discovered that I value the Catholic Church for its ceremony beauty, it's long history, its conservative outlook on worship (emotionalism isn't my thing), and it's worth as a political institution and bureaucracy. I'm not a believer, but I find its structures superior to the more democratic Protestant faiths.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Eh, my motto is that from time to time, it is best to keep up appearances for public image and family connection, while privately observing little to nothing.

In fact, in not particularly ashamed of what catholic and Protestant alike view as the Church's corrupt times. I wasn't quite swayed that Priests and Cardinals secretly banging and having children, and running global politics was necessarily a bad thing (well, aside from the fact that Kingdoms allowed the Church to have that much sway in the first place--tisk tisk). I'm a bastard, I know.

I discovered that I value the Catholic Church for its ceremony beauty, it's long history, its conservative outlook on worship (emotionalism isn't my thing), and it's worth as a political institution and bureaucracy. I'm not a believer, but I find its structures superior to the more democratic Protestant faiths.

My husband is Catholic, although he hasn't been to church in years. We've discussed going to one of the handful of Catholic churches around here, to see if any fit.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

My husband is Catholic, although he hasn't been to church in years. We've discussed going to one of the handful of Catholic churches around here, to see if any fit.

I did catholic school K-12, took me a few years to recover. When I go back for weddings and funerals, it is so alien now, it is all just empty rituals and baloney. And we had the pedo priests in grade school, even worked for one during high school on weekends, cleaning the church, mowing the yard, etc. It was disturbing then, but I look back now and just go....wow....

Thankfully, none of these perverts did anything to me, but I know people they did it to.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Of course it's fallible. Men make mistakes. There is only one perfect Man who walked the earth, and He died. His words, however, are written in red, and I abide by them as much as I possibly can. See, I am human, so it means I am fallible. I make mistakes. Everyone does.

[sorry - had to snip due to length]

First off, you're aware that Christ never actually wrote anything, right? The entire New Testament was written by his Apostles after the fact, or men who followed them. As such, the prospect of only paying heed to some of their writings, while ignoring others as being "fallible," is somewhat questionable at best. It was all written by men. They simply happened to have been men who were blessed with divine knowledge and inspiration so that they could fulfill the mission of spreading the word of God.

As such, no. Their writings are not "fallible." At worst, the translations of their words can occasionally be fallible. Frankly, if some of their writings are, indeed, fallible, there would be no reason to assume that all of them were not the same.

Secondly, there is a good reason why we no longer follow the Old Testament teachings of Leviticus, or the Mosaic law (no shellfish, no pork, no work on the Sabbath, etca). Christ pretty plainly told us that most of it wasn't relevant anymore, as his arrival on earth had already fulfilled the purpose of the Old Testament.

That doesn't change the fact, however, that he, and the Apostles responsible for recording and spreading his teachings after he had died, put down a New Testament for the disciples of Christ to follow. The simple fact of the matter is that this Testament just so happens, often times in Christ's own words no less, to pretty plainly condemn many of the things which Liberal Christianity likes to promote as being acceptable - like homosexuality, divorce, promiscuity, and etca.

Now, don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you're at least trying to maintain faith in Christ. That's more than a lot of people are doing these days.

No, I'm not going to claim that more conservative Christians are free from sin either. We're pretty far from it, in point of fact.

All of that being said, however, flaunting views in open defiance of what Christ taught on Earth, and denying that acts which he held as being sinful are even wrong, would hardly strike me as being a good place to start if one intends on finding their way to heaven. Christ actually taught that incomplete faith, or faith without acts to back it up, was a pretty surefire way not to get in, in point of truth. This is backed up in many other places in scripture.

"If you are lukewarm, I will spit you out." - Revelation 3:16

In any eventuality, yes. Ultimately, you are correct. Judgement is up to God to decide in the end. The points raised above might be something to keep in mind, however.

God left certain instructions behind to be followed. Willful failure to do so is... Well, let's just call it "less than ideal." :twocents:

It will just be replaced by another religion, so I see no point in celebrating by the death of a relatively benevolent faith.

In this case, most likely philosophies which effectively double as ad hoc secular religions, paired with thinly veiled worship of the state, temporal power, material wealth, human being itself, and sensual excess.

The funny thing is that everyone seems to think that these are all somehow new, novel, and "enlightened" ideas. In truth, they are largely just a rebirth of the pagan social and moral order which existed in pre-Christian times, given a fresh coat of paint.

Everyone likes to claim that it's all those mean old social conservatives who can't get with the times who are responsible for declining Christianity, but the numbers tell us that it is mostly liberals leaving the faith. The more conservative churches have been dropping much slower or, in some cases steadily growing.

Exactly. To be perfectly frank, why wouldn't they leave?

We're talking about an entire generation (and sometimes more than one) of people who were basically raised with religion being nothing more than some annoying waste of time they were occasionally dragged to against their will on Sundays. They have no intellectual understanding of its workings, and no real emotional or spiritual investment in its meaning.

Christianity, simply put, means nothing to most of these people. Under such circumstances, the only logical conclusion is to leave. :shrug:

This isn't some triumph of "knowledge." It is a failure largely born out of widespread apathy and ignorance.
 
Last edited:
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

I did catholic school K-12, took me a few years to recover. When I go back for weddings and funerals, it is so alien now, it is all just empty rituals and baloney. And we had the pedo priests in grade school, even worked for one during high school on weekends, cleaning the church, mowing the yard, etc. It was disturbing then, but I look back now and just go....wow....

Thankfully, none of these perverts did anything to me, but I know people they did it to.

Right, but as I was saying earlier, you can't judge an entire religion based on what a few did. How many priests have we heard about, who molested children? Maybe 100? Which means that there are probably more like 1,000 that actually did it. There are over 400,000 priests in the world, and that's just priests alone. Not Bishops, Cardinals, etc. Just priests. When you look at it that way, it doesn't look as bad. Now don't get me wrong. I am not condoning what the priests did - not at all. I think it was horrid, as they ruined the lives of children, and most of them were just moved to other churches instead of getting into any kind of trouble. I just think that it's wrong, or closed-minded, to assume that all religions are bad just because of a few bad seeds.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

First off, you're aware that Christ never actually wrote anything, right? The entire New Testament was written by his Apostles after the fact, or men who followed them. As such, the prospect of only paying heed to some of their writings, while ignoring others as being "fallible," is somewhat questionable at best. It was all written by men. They simply happened to have been men who were blessed with divine knowledge and inspiration so that they could fulfill the mission of spreading the word of God.

As such, no. Their writings are not "fallible." At worst, the translations of their words can occasionally be fallible. Frankly, if some of their writings are, indeed, fallible, there would be no reason to assume that all of them were not the same.

Secondly, there is a good reason why we no longer follow the Old Testament teachings of Leviticus, or the Mosaic law (no shellfish, no pork, no work on the Sabbath, etca). Christ pretty plainly told us that most of it wasn't relevant anymore, as his arrival on earth had already fulfilled the purpose of the Old Testament.

That doesn't change the fact, however, that he, and the Apostles responsible for recording and spreading his teachings after he had died, put down a New Testament for the followers of God to follow. That Testament just so happens, often times in Christ's own words no less, to pretty plainly condemn many of the things which Liberal Christianity likes to promote as being acceptable - like homosexuality, divorce, promiscuity, and etca.

Now, don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you're at least trying to maintain faith in Christ. That's more than a lot of people are doing these days.

No, I'm not going to claim that more religious Christians are free from sin either. We're pretty far from it, in point of fact.

All of that being said, however, flaunting views in open defiance of what Christ taught on Earth, and denying that acts which he held as being sinful are even wrong, would hardly strike me as being a good place to start if one intends of finding their way to heaven. Christ actually taught that incomplete faith, or faith without acts to back it up, was a pretty surefire way not to get in, in point of truth. This is backed up in many other places in scripture.

"If you are lukewarm, I will spit you out." - Revelation 3:16

In any eventuality, yes. Ultimately, you are correct. Judgement is up to God to decide in the end. The points raised above might be something to keep in mind, however.

God left certain instructions behind to be followed. Willful failure to do so is... Well, let's just call it "less than ideal." :twocents:

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to preach to me. I do find it amusing.

*edited out, because my telling you what you are doing wrong is no better than you telling me what I am doing wrong. Neither of us know what God has any store for any of us, and it's the ultimate in hubris to think that we know*
 
Last edited:
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Russia is in fact having a strong resurgence of Christianity and religious values. That's why they're so keen on oppressing gays and women.



So why not just live a good life for its own sake and not bother with the differences over who you think told you to do that? That's what all those non-religious people do. We just do good for good's sake. No need for myths or spirits or judgments or anything like that.



What you call "relativistic", I would call "debated, examined, and subjected to critical thought". Having absolute rules doesn't help at all if they're crappy rules. The example of how Christianity and Islam treat gay people is an obvious example. Being sure that your rules say to treat them poorly isn't points in their favor. Or laws and ethics should be constantly evolving and improving. That's how we're better than barbarians from past eras.

Nice try.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

First off, you're aware that Christ never actually wrote anything, right? The entire New Testament was written by his Apostles after the fact, or men who followed them. As such, the prospect of only paying heed to some of their writings, while ignoring others as being "fallible," is somewhat questionable at best. It was all written by men. They simply happened to have been men who were blessed with divine knowledge and inspiration so that they could fulfill the mission of spreading the word of God.

As such, no. Their writings are not "fallible." At worst, the translations of their words can occasionally be fallible. Frankly, if some of their writings are, indeed, fallible, there would be no reason to assume that all of them were not the same.

Secondly, there is a good reason why we no longer follow the Old Testament teachings of Leviticus, or the Mosaic law (no shellfish, no pork, no work on the Sabbath, etca). Christ pretty plainly told us that most of it wasn't relevant anymore, as his arrival on earth had already fulfilled the purpose of the Old Testament.

That doesn't change the fact, however, that he, and the Apostles responsible for recording and spreading his teachings after he had died, put down a New Testament for the disciples of Christ to follow. The simple fact of the matter is that this Testament just so happens, often times in Christ's own words no less, to pretty plainly condemn many of the things which Liberal Christianity likes to promote as being acceptable - like homosexuality, divorce, promiscuity, and etca.

Now, don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you're at least trying to maintain faith in Christ. That's more than a lot of people are doing these days.

No, I'm not going to claim that more conservative Christians are free from sin either. We're pretty far from it, in point of fact.

All of that being said, however, flaunting views in open defiance of what Christ taught on Earth, and denying that acts which he held as being sinful are even wrong, would hardly strike me as being a good place to start if one intends on finding their way to heaven. Christ actually taught that incomplete faith, or faith without acts to back it up, was a pretty surefire way not to get in, in point of truth. This is backed up in many other places in scripture.

"If you are lukewarm, I will spit you out." - Revelation 3:16

In any eventuality, yes. Ultimately, you are correct. Judgement is up to God to decide in the end. The points raised above might be something to keep in mind, however.

God left certain instructions behind to be followed. Willful failure to do so is... Well, let's just call it "less than ideal." :twocents:



In this case, most likely philosophies which effectively double as ad hoc secular religions, paired with thinly veiled worship of the state, temporal power, material wealth, human being itself, and sensual excess.

The funny thing is that everyone seems to think that these are all somehow new, novel, and "enlightened" ideas. In truth, they are largely just a rebirth of the pagan social and moral order which existed in pre-Christian times, given a fresh coat of paint.



Exactly. To be perfectly frank, why wouldn't they leave?

We're talking about an entire generation (and sometimes more than one) of people who were basically raised with religion being nothing more than some annoying waste of time they were occasionally dragged to against their will on Sundays. They have no intellectual understanding of its workings, and no real emotional or spiritual investment in its meaning.

Christianity, simply put, means nothing to most of these people. Under such circumstances, the only logical conclusion is to leave. :shrug:

This isn't some triumph of "knowledge." It is a failure largely born out of widespread apathy ignorance.

State worship? Perhaps we will return to Hammurabi at some point again, but much like previous religions, it will have a world unto itself, but can be used to fulfill the role of the state in order to keep us in line.

It doesn't need to be a solipsistic religion (and history tends to show us it won't be), but it can be.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to preach to me. I do find it amusing, and I guess in saying so, it makes me sound like I am patting you on the head and telling you to be a good little boy and run along. That's not my intent.

I will say this, seeing as how you've gotten a bit personal with me. You have been called, on more than several occasions, misogynistic and racist, by many on this forum. How well is that going to look? I mean, if we are looking at sins people commit that will or will not keep them from going to Heaven. Because you are to love thy neighbor as thyself. I don't see that a lot with you.

Well, seeing as how I'm neither of those things, I can't imagine why it'd matter in the slightest. :lol:

In any case, you can call it "preaching" if you want. The fact is, however, I'm really not pointing out anything which isn't already there in black and white for all the world to see.

If you want to deny those things, that's your choice. I'd just try and be damn sure that it's the right one before committing to it.
 
Last edited:
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Right, but as I was saying earlier, you can't judge an entire religion based on what a few did. How many priests have we heard about, who molested children? Maybe 100? Which means that there are probably more like 1,000 that actually did it. There are over 400,000 priests in the world, and that's just priests alone. Not Bishops, Cardinals, etc. Just priests. When you look at it that way, it doesn't look as bad. Now don't get me wrong. I am not condoning what the priests did - not at all. I think it was horrid, as they ruined the lives of children, and most of them were just moved to other churches instead of getting into any kind of trouble. I just think that it's wrong, or closed-minded, to assume that all religions are bad just because of a few bad seeds.

It is not a few. And......the guys at the top, including John Paul II and his minions knew all about it, and they not only did nothing to remove the priests, they actively attacked the accusers. That is such pure evil.

Find the online database for the LA Diocese, they have files, online of every pedophile priest going back to the 40's. Clergy Files - Archdiocese of Los Angeles Some of those files are hundreds of pages long, read them, read about how the cardinals and bishops covered for them.

They knew for decades, they moved the priests from parish to parish, they blamed the victims. Several priests were sent to remote villages in Alaska where they raped entire communities of kids. The church knew all about it, they didn't act, they covered it up.

I live in the house I grew up in, about 50 feet behind the church and grade school I attended, they knowingly allowed pedophiles to rape children, and they did nothing. I will never be a catholic again.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

It is not a few. And......the guys at the top, including John Paul II and his minions knew all about it, and they not only did nothing to remove the priests, they actively attacked the accusers. That is such pure evil.

Find the online database for the LA Diocese, they have files, online of every pedophile priest going back to the 40's. Clergy Files - Archdiocese of Los Angeles Some of those files are hundreds of pages long, read them, read about how the cardinals and bishops covered for them.

They knew for decades, they moved the priests from parish to parish, they blamed the victims. Several priests were sent to remote villages in Alaska where they raped entire communities of kids. The church knew all about it, they didn't act, they covered it up.

I live in the house I grew up in, about 50 feet behind the church and grade school I attended, they knowingly allowed pedophiles to rape children, and they did nothing. I will never be a catholic again.

I'm so sorry. I really am. I have never been to a Catholic church, so I am only speaking of what I've read, and been told. I don't know if I want to read the link you sent me, because it will only make me sad, and angry.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.


More than a tad dramatic, don't you think?

From your own source:

http://clergyfiles.la-archdiocese.org/listing.html

General Questions about Handling the Cases:

Question: Did the Archdiocese send priests outside California for treatment to avoid reporting them to the police?
Answer: No. There were no instances in which prosecution was delayed or prevented by the offending priest being sent out of state for treatment. Priests were sent outside California for evaluation and treatment because there are no residential treatment centers for priests in California. These centers are located in Jemez Springs, NM; St. Louis, MO; Philadelphia, PA; Silver Springs, MD; Aurora, Ontario, Canada.


Question: In the 1980s and 1990s, why didn’t the Archdiocese report to the police priests who were guilty of the sexual abuse of minors?
Answer: The Archdiocese generally received reports of abuse in confidence. Most parents frequently did not wish their children or family to be the center of a public scandal. The Archdiocese advised parents of victims that they were free to report the abuse to the police, but that was their decision. They were also told that the Archdiocese did not make such reports independently.

In the 1990s and moving forward, our policy changed as more groups were added to California law as mandated reporters. We advised parents of their right to report to the police, and from 1994 forward, the Archdiocese began reporting to the police as well. Beginning in 1997, clergy became mandated reporters requiring clergy members themselves to report any suspected child abuse. Since that time the Archdiocese has reported suspected abuse and vigorously supported and encouraged prosecution.


Question: It has been stated by some that the Archdiocese dissuaded priests from returning to California because they would be subject to possible arrest and prosecution. Is that true?
Answer: No. If a criminal complaint had been made, the location of the priest would not have deterred criminal prosecution. There were however a small number of cases in which the Archdiocese encouraged a priest to not return to the Archdiocese to avoid public scandal. In those instances, the priest was reminded that returning could engender both criminal prosecution and civil litigation.


Question: Did the Archdiocese carry on protracted legal strategies to stymie the release of clergy files?
Answer: No. When the Archdiocese and the Plaintiffs reached a global settlement in 2007, they agreed upon a legal process which would eventually lead to the release of clergy files. A retired Judge was retained to go through all of the files and to exclude information which he believed to be privileged according to State law or which he did not consider relevant to matters of childhood sexual abuse. This process took an extraordinary amount of time.

In addition, many of the priests whose files were to be released retained their own attorneys to protect their rights under State law. This process took a long time since the Judge had to review each contested file, and render a decision. Many of those files were appealed by the priests to the Appellate Courts, and eventually, to the California State Supreme Court. The Archdiocese never appealed or delayed the process.

The Archdiocese complied fully with the Judge’s orders throughout this process and accelerated the release once a final order was signed.

Now, yes. Obviously, there were some problems in how the Church handled these cases.

However, most of those problems weren't isolated to the Church alone. They were endemic to the culture and legal system of the time as a whole.

The Church has also long since made moves to atone for the wrong it did do in these cases.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Doesn't terrify me at all. Having faith in something means that you believe in it, whether you can see it or not. I am a woman of faith. I believe that there is something waiting for me on the other side. If I am wrong, then I will never know. But if you are wrong, you will certainly know. :lol:

LOL. Pascal's wager. Why is this always the lazy christian retort when someone doesn't buy their particular brand of religion? You've assumed there are only two options: either you're right and you go to heaven or you're wrong and we cease to exist. Maybe Islam is right and you'll burn in hell for not being muslim. Now, do silly threats like that make you want to be a muslim?

Threats of violence are not a good way to convince someone to be a christian. You should consider whether you believe because you want to or of you simply believe because you're afraid of the consequences.


I appreciate the fact that you are trying to preach to me. I do find it amusing.

*edited out, because my telling you what you are doing wrong is no better than you telling me what I am doing wrong. Neither of us know what God has any store for any of us, and it's the ultimate in hubris to think that we know*

Instead of hurling cheap threats this is what you should have said from the beginning. You don't have any idea if god exists or what he wants any more than anyone else does.
 
Last edited:
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

It is not a few. And......the guys at the top, including John Paul II and his minions knew all about it, and they not only did nothing to remove the priests, they actively attacked the accusers. That is such pure evil.

Find the online database for the LA Diocese, they have files, online of every pedophile priest going back to the 40's. Clergy Files - Archdiocese of Los Angeles Some of those files are hundreds of pages long, read them, read about how the cardinals and bishops covered for them.

They knew for decades, they moved the priests from parish to parish, they blamed the victims. Several priests were sent to remote villages in Alaska where they raped entire communities of kids. The church knew all about it, they didn't act, they covered it up.

I live in the house I grew up in, about 50 feet behind the church and grade school I attended, they knowingly allowed pedophiles to rape children, and they did nothing. I will never be a catholic again.

I had looked at the child molestation questions in Germany some time ago. From what I could tell the RC was no more prone to molest and cover up than other organizations tending children. As a matter of fact, a secular school seems to have taken the cookie and sports clubs, which are quasi public via the subsidy schemes, were able to avoid scrutiny. In Belgium the major rings were secular as were some recently revealed cases in England.

Of course, the RC was much more strongly engaged in schooling, orphanages etc and so naturally more exposed to risk. At the same time there is a lot of hate for religious organizations to discount.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

I had looked at the child molestation questions in Germany some time ago. From what I could tell the RC was no more prone to molest and cover up than other organizations tending children. As a matter of fact, a secular school seems to have taken the cookie and sports clubs, which are quasi public via the subsidy schemes, were able to avoid scrutiny. In Belgium the major rings were secular as were some recently revealed cases in England.

Of course, the RC was much more strongly engaged in schooling, orphanages etc and so naturally more exposed to risk. At the same time there is a lot of hate for religious organizations to discount.

Pull up about 20 or so of the files. Some of them are over 250 pages. Letters sent to parents of kids raped where the cardinal says that this was the first time anyone ever made a complaint...but there are 20 years of complaints in the files.

Pure evil. The church allowed rapists to do whatever they wanted, and they lied to the families and attacked the victims.

I want NO part of that religion.
 
Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

More than a tad dramatic, don't you think?

From your own source:

Clergy Files - Archdiocese of Los Angeles



Now, yes. Obviously, there were some problems in how the Church handled these cases.

However, most of those problems weren't isolated to the Church alone. They were endemic to the culture and legal system of the time as a whole.

The Church has also long since made moves to atone for the wrong it did do in these cases.


http://clergyfiles.la-archdiocese.org/files/Kohnke,%20John.pdf

http://clergyfiles.la-archdiocese.org/files/Sutphin,%20Carl.pdf

http://clergyfiles.la-archdiocese.org/files/Llanos,%20Theodore.pdf


A few files for you to read. And this is just in one diocese....multiply this by the thousands.
 
Back
Top Bottom