US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds. [W:210]

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

beefheart said:

They are still a flyspeck. Nones are growing, non belief is where the world is going.

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Muslims are a third of the world's population and growing. So your conclusion isnt supported by any sort of facts

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Higgins86 said:

US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds - BBC News

The number of Americans who identify as Christian has fallen nearly eight percentage points in only seven years, according to a new survey.

Pew Research Center found that 71% of Americans identified as Christian in 2014 - down from 78% in 2007.

In the same period, Americans identifying as having no religion grew from 16% to 23%.

Fifty-six million Americans do not observe any religion, the second largest community after Evangelicals.



Does this surprise our American members? What impact do you think this will have on Ameerica socially and politically in the future if this number continues to fall?

Also why do you think these numbers are dropping? Failure of the church or is it a disconnect with young people and organised Religion ?

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It's Millennials driving the change. We're in our mid twenties to early thirties on average now - as opposed to teens and mid twenties in '07 - and we seem to be increasingly shifting away from religion and more traditional morality in general as we strike out on our own.

Will that change as we age further, eventually settle down, and start looking to raise families? Maybe, but I doubt it'll be enough to offset the overall trend.

It's also worth noting, however, that the - largely white, Middle Class - culture non-religious Millennials represent is in relative decline at the moment, as birth rates continue to sag. It's entirely possible that the significantly more religious and culturally conservative Latino demographics that are showing the strongest growth right now might eventually start to reverse this trend as they fill the ever widening gap the receding majority culture leaves behind.

Hope isn't entirely lost just yet, thankfully.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Superfly said:

That's exactly what I was saying. Not all Christians are like that, any more than all Muslims are trying to blow people up. But the people who do act poorly, unfortunately, make the entire group look bad.

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Only to dumb people who think that actions of a small minority represent an entire group

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Paschendale said:

So why not just live a good life for its own sake and not bother with the differences over who you think told you to do that? That's what all those non-religious people do. We just do good for good's sake. No need for myths or spirits or judgments or anything like that.

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Why should I have to live life the way you think I should live? I won't tell you how to live your life, so why are trying to tell me how to live mine? I choose to live a life of faith. You choose not to. I'm not one of these people who is going to stand there, wagging their finger at you, because that is your choice on how to live. You shouldn't do it to me, either.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Crovax said:

Only to dumb people who think that actions of a small minority represent an entire group

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"Dumb people?" No, I disagree. Closed-minded people maybe, but closed-minded doesn't necessarily equal "dumb." My mother used to call people like that "hard-headed." :lol:

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Crovax said:

Muslims are a third of the world's population and growing. So your conclusion isnt supported by any sort of facts

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Story about US. But the non religious are growing everywhere.

Knowledge does that to superstition.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Superfly said:

That's exactly what I was saying. Not all Christians are like that, any more than all Muslims are trying to blow people up. But the people who do act poorly, unfortunately, make the entire group look bad.

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I know that all christians are not like that lol.....iwas just stating I think thats one of the reasons lol

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Crovax said:

immigration only accounts for about half the growth, also note that Judaism grew in size as well, so the logic of information leading to athiesm doesn't hold any water.

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My observation is that many people become involved in Judaism in order to stay in touch with their families/ancestor's cultural roots. The same may be true of some people and Islam, esp. with African Americans. Also, Islam, and beliefs derived from it (such as the Nation of Islam), are popular in prison. Some prisoners may join initially to be protected from other prison gangs and become believers. With more people being incarcerated, esp. African Americans, that may explain some of the growth of Muslims in the USA.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

I do not understand why it is a surprise that those that identify themselves as "Christian" is in decline. All of the relevant factors are there.

As the Pew study illustrates the decline "is taking place in every region of the country, including the Bible Belt." Generational speaking, you could attribute a reasonable percentage of the reason to the lack of youth additions to religion to replace aging demographics. The message of the church resonates with generations to varying impacts. Even though we still do have a sizable percentage of the population that identifies as Christian of some flavor how they each impact politics means something. But for the purpose of this conversation the overall Christian population has declined more from 2007 to 2014 than any other point of measure. A real concern for the church, of all flavors.

Atheists, agnostics, and those who do not identify with any faith at all made the gains, the below graph illustrates that. 22.8% of respondents now identify themselves as unaffiliated with any organized religion, compared with 16.1% back in 2007. That is substantial.

We can argue for decades on the reasons but it stands to reason that message makes an impact. Social conservatism, arguably the gateway of the church in politics, is in decline. And we have too many polls on social matters that suggest the pulse of the nation is no longer in agreement with religion. Using the government to be the moral barometer of the nation has had a backlash in terms of those not looking to the government as a theocracy. You could infer that is backed up by the results of the Pew research that confirms almost every major flavor of Christianity has lost a significant number of members over the course of this time period. Again, substantial.

And I have to mention the going messages from religion onto the general population related to marriage equality, abortion, related to women's rights, evolution vs. creationism, the role of science vs. the role of the church, etc. has made people think about faith in a way that did not take root even 10 years ago. But now it has. Pew research is telling us what other polls have eluded to for at least the last 10 or so years, the face of the population has changed in relation to faith. Not enough to make faith a minority but at this pace we are on our way.

Included is the actual study and dynamics of the results and two high level graphs...





America’s Changing Religious Landscape | Pew Research Center

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Higgins86 said:

US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds - BBC News

The number of Americans who identify as Christian has fallen nearly eight percentage points in only seven years, according to a new survey.

Pew Research Center found that 71% of Americans identified as Christian in 2014 - down from 78% in 2007.

In the same period, Americans identifying as having no religion grew from 16% to 23%.

Fifty-six million Americans do not observe any religion, the second largest community after Evangelicals.

Does this surprise our American members? What impact do you think this will have on Ameerica socially and politically in the future if this number continues to fall?

Also why do you think these numbers are dropping? Failure of the church or is it a disconnect with young people and organised Religion ?

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:shrug: broadly, the rate at which the mainstream churches are losing membership is the extent to which they liberalize. As churches cease to stand for anything, folks see little reason to stand with them.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

cpwill said:

:shrug: broadly, the rate at which the mainstream churches are losing membership is the extent to which they liberalize. As churches cease to stand for anything, folks see little reason to stand with them.

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Hogwash. That just tells me that you are one of those people who thinks that a liberal person can't be a Christian. That is part of the problem. Too many people trying to play God, and too many people saying, "You can't go to Heaven because of so and so." You are NOT God, and have NO right to say who is, or is not, Christian. When you do reach that lofty position, let me know. Until then, you are perpetuating the problem.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Superfly said:

You are NOT God, and have NO right to say who is, or is not, Christian.

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No, but God certainly is. In case you haven't noticed, he left some rather specific standards, expectations, and instructions behind for those who agree to follow in his footsteps to live up to.

While we more conservative Christians can point this fact out to the more liberal variety who so commonly choose to ignore such inconvenient truths in favor of their own will ten ways past Sunday, it is ultimately God to which they will find themselves answering for their flagrant disobedience.

Just sayin'. :shrug:

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Gathomas88 said:

No, but God certainly is. In case you haven't noticed, he left some rather specific standards, expectations, and instructions behind for those who agree to follow in his footsteps to live up to.

While we more conservative Christians can point this fact out to the more liberal variety who so commonly choose to ignore such instructions in favor of their own will ten ways past Sunday, it is ultimately God to which they will find themselves answering for their flagrant disobedience.

Just sayin'. :shrug:

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Ah. So you speak for God, too. Nice to know. :roll: The Bible is very subjective. Very. What you may read, and consider, as one way to live, someone else may read the same guideline, and decipher it to mean something entirely different.

With the exception of the words in red, the Bible was written by man, and man is fallible. I pretty much follow the Ten Commandments, and doesn't say anything in there about gay people or anything else. Everything written about the things that you people are so up in arms over are written by men.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Superfly said:

Ah. So you speak for God, too.

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There is no need. He has already spoken for himself.

It's up to us to listen. :shrug:

The Bible is very subjective.

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No, it's really not, and no, it's certainly not "fallible." People just like to pretend it is, because it gives them an excuse to justify sin.

In any eventuality, if you want to go around flagrantly ignoring 90% of what God actually passed down to humanity (frankly, if you view that 90% as being 'fallible' in the first place, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to keep the other 10%), and the common sense interpretations of those words which have been accepted for millennia, that's on you. I'd simply give a bit of thought as to what the Almighty might happen to think of that decision when you meet him face-to-face.

Somehow, I doubt that, "Yea... I know what you said, but that sounded hard and/or stupid so I ignored it and did my own thing instead," is liable to go over particularly well.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Superfly said:

Why should I have to live life the way you think I should live? I won't tell you how to live your life, so why are trying to tell me how to live mine? I choose to live a life of faith. You choose not to. I'm not one of these people who is going to stand there, wagging their finger at you, because that is your choice on how to live. You shouldn't do it to me, either.

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Except you do in your own way "tell you how to live your life,"(below in bold) moreso than he did by asking you a simple question, which I also note you didn't answer.

Superfly said:

Doesn't terrify me at all. Having faith in something means that you believe in it, whether you can see it or not. I am a woman of faith. I believe that there is something waiting for me on the other side. If I am wrong, then I will never know. But if you are wrong, you will certainly know. :lol:

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Which is the same as the evangelicals' bullcrap, "you're going to hell, you atheist pig." So you typed it with more sleight of hand, but still says the same thing.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Gathomas88 said:

There is no need. He has already spoken for himself.

It's up to us to listen. :shrug:

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Awfully bold of you to assume that I don't listen to God. Good thing I pray to Him (daily), and not you. :shrug:

No, it's really not, and no, it's certainly not "fallible." People just like to pretend it is, because it gives them an excuse to justify sin.

In any eventuality, if you want to go around flagrantly ignoring 90% of what God actually passed down to humanity (frankly, if you view that 90% as being 'fallible' in the first place, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to keep the other 10%), and the common sense interpretations of those words which have been accepted for millennia, that's on you. I'd simply give a bit of thought as to what the Almighty might happen to think of that decision when you meet him face-to-face.

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Of course it's fallible. Men make mistakes. There is only one perfect Man who walked the earth, and He died. His words, however, are written in red, and I abide by them as much as I possibly can. See, I am human, so it means I am fallible. I make mistakes. Everyone does.

As far as my justifying sin, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. When is the last time you ate shellfish? Probably recently, since you live in Charleston. When is the last time you talked back to your parents? Or even had bad thoughts about them? When is the last time you ate pork?

Those are all sins. Some of them can have you put to death. I don't follow those, either. Do you?

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Higgins86 said:

US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds - BBC News

The number of Americans who identify as Christian has fallen nearly eight percentage points in only seven years, according to a new survey.

Pew Research Center found that 71% of Americans identified as Christian in 2014 - down from 78% in 2007.

In the same period, Americans identifying as having no religion grew from 16% to 23%.

Fifty-six million Americans do not observe any religion, the second largest community after Evangelicals.



Does this surprise our American members? What impact do you think this will have on Ameerica socially and politically in the future if this number continues to fall?

Also why do you think these numbers are dropping? Failure of the church or is it a disconnect with young people and organised Religion ?

Click to expand...

It's been going up and down for a long time. What it looks like to me is the number gets closer to 80% when times are hard or scary, then declines closer to 70% when things seem better.

If you look into more specific and detailed surveys, about a third of those who self-identify as Christian are really "non-practicing" anyway, and that's where most of the variation occurs.

I don't foresee any major changes in society or politics unless it drops well below 50%... and I doubt that will happen any time this century.


BTW a lot of those saying they have "no religion" aren't atheist or agnostic necessarily, just not particularly attached to any specific organized religion. AKA "indifferent", 'too busy', "whichever way the wind blows".

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Summerwind said:

Except you do in your own way "tell you how to live your life,"(below in bold) moreso than he did by asking you a simple question, which I also note you didn't answer.
Which is the same as the evangelicals' bullcrap, "you're going to hell, you atheist pig." So you typed it with more sleight of hand, but still says the same thing.

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:lol: I did no such thing. I didn't tell ANYONE how to live their life, because when I die, and I stand before God, I only have to answer to what I have done. Not some random person on the internet.

I am not God, so I have no say of who goes where. Not my place. What I said, pretty clearly, I thought, was "If I'm wrong, I won't know. If you're wrong, you will know." I see nothing wrong with what I said, and I'd like for you to explain to me why you think what I said was wrong.

People who believe in God, or Jesus, or go to church, or don't - either way, they believe in everlasting life in Heaven, or everlasting damnation in Hell.

People who are atheists do not.

EVERYBODY who knows anything about religious vs non religious people know this. It's not a big state secret, or something that you only get to know if you go to church. One group feels one way, one group feels the other way. My statement - very clearly - said "if one way is wrong, then they will not know. If the other way is wrong, they WILL know."

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

mmorado said:

I remember a song by DC Talk "What if I Stumble"

"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable"

That pretty much sums up my attitude. They claim to love thy neighbor, but the actions show different.

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Well, church is a pretty good place to learn about their shortcomings and work on them. And understand, many of these hypocrites were former atheists and agnostics who came into the faith and are still learning.

Also remember what the Lord said, that there would be wolves in sheep's clothing.

I also know one hell of a lot of atheists and agnostics who are blatant hypocrites.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Goshin said:

It's been going up and down for a long time. What it looks like to me is the number gets closer to 80% when times are hard or scary, then declines closer to 70% when things seem better.

If you look into more specific and detailed surveys, about a third of those who self-identify as Christian are really "non-practicing" anyway, and that's where most of the variation occurs.

I don't foresee any major changes in society or politics unless it drops well below 50%... and I doubt that will happen any time this century.


BTW a lot of those saying they have "no religion" aren't atheist or agnostic necessary, just not particularly attached to any specific organized religion. AKA "indifferent", 'too busy', "whichever way the wind blows".

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Personally, I consider myself a religious person, but do not affiliate myself with religion. Organized religion is, in my opinion, one of the problems we are having. More of a groupthink, where if one person thinks something is wrong, then everybody else has to think it's wrong too, or they aren't as good a Christian as the other person.

Just my two cents.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

nota bene said:

What in the world would they be scared of? :roll:

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From the way they talk, just about everything

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Religionism in the USA peaked in the late 50s-early 60s largely as a result of major campaign financed by big business beginning in the 1930s to promote Christianity as being against business regulation and New Deal type 'socialist' programs such as social security.


"We’re often told that the United States is, was, and always has been a Christian nation. But in One Nation Under God, historian Kevin M. Kruse reveals that the idea of “Christian America” is an invention—and a relatively recent one at that.

As Kruse argues, the belief that America is fundamentally and formally a Christian nation originated in the 1930s when businessmen enlisted religious activists in their fight against FDR’s New Deal. Corporations from General Motors to Hilton Hotels bankrolled conservative clergymen, encouraging them to attack the New Deal as a program of “pagan statism” that perverted the central principle of Christianity: the sanctity and salvation of the individual. Their campaign for “freedom under God” culminated in the election of their close ally Dwight Eisenhower in 1952.

But this apparent triumph had an ironic twist. In Eisenhower’s hands, a religious movement born in opposition to the government was transformed into one that fused faith and the federal government as never before. During the 1950s, Eisenhower revolutionized the role of religion in American political culture, inventing new traditions from inaugural prayers to the National Prayer Breakfast. Meanwhile, Congress added the phrase “under God” to the Pledge of Allegiance and made “In God We Trust” the country’s first official motto. With private groups joining in, church membership soared to an all-time high of 69%. For the first time, Americans began to think of their country as an officially Christian nation.

During this moment, virtually all Americans—across the religious and political spectrum—believed that their country was “one nation under God.” But as Americans moved from broad generalities to the details of issues such as school prayer, cracks began to appear. Religious leaders rejected this “lowest common denomination” public religion, leaving conservative political activists to champion it alone. In Richard Nixon’s hands, a politics that conflated piety and patriotism became sole property of the right...."

http://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Und...n+god+we+trust

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Superfly said:

Hogwash. That just tells me that you are one of those people who thinks that a liberal person can't be a Christian

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:shrug: then either your reasoning skills are poor, or you are out to seek offense. My father, for example, is a lifelong liberal (two time Obama voter), a Methodist minister, and probably the single biggest influence on my faith and how I approach theology.

That is part of the problem. Too many people trying to play God, and too many people saying, "You can't go to Heaven because of so and so." You are NOT God, and have NO right to say who is, or is not, Christian. When you do reach that lofty position, let me know. Until then, you are perpetuating the problem.

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:yawn: when I start to do that, let me know. The only standards I would feel safe applying to define who is and who is not Christian are those laid down in the New Testament: 1. confess with your mouth and believe with your heart in Jesus Christ and 2. do not attempt to change or add to the Gospel given to us in the New Testament.

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

cpwill said:

:shrug: then either your reasoning skills are poor, or you are out to seek offense. My father, for example, is a lifelong liberal (two time Obama voter), a minister, and probably the single biggest influence on my faith and how I approach theology.

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So what would your liberal minister Father say if he knew that you blamed the falling away of the congregation on liberals?

Re: US Christians numbers 'decline sharply', poll finds.

Superfly said:

As far as my justifying sin, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. When is the last time you ate shellfish? Probably recently, since you live in Charleston. When is the last time you talked back to your parents? Or even had bad thoughts about them? When is the last time you ate pork?

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Even better - ask the guy so certain about God's instruction manual how often he goes to church.

He wants to blame liberals for the church's decline because he doesn't realize that it's people like him who are responsible.