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Who Directs Karma?[W:203:215]

Re: Who Directs Karma?

Risky Thicket said:
Karma stems from your intentions actions not the intentions and actions of others. Karma isn't really "good" or "bad".

What is an example of someone doing something really bad but with really good intentions?

If your intention, from your heart if you like, is to act with loving kindness towards another person I don't know how karma could be negatively affected.

Let me give you quick example. I was raised to hold the door for people if I am at the threshold of a door to a building or in a building, that sort of thing. It used to pissed me off when I would hold a door and a person or if people would walk through and not acknowledge my "good" deed, my generous act.

Who was wrong? Me, not them! Why? My intention. Buddhism taught me to deal with anger, which was how I first became involved with Buddhism.

Anger over door holding acknowledgement was wrong. Stupid, actually.

Why was I angry? Because some people didn't say "thank you".

What was my intention when holding the door? Being honest with myself, my intention was actually to be acknowledged for committing a selfless act. My intention then wasn't based on loving kindness, it wasn't a selfless act. The results of my actions then set me up to be angry. I very much do not enjoy anger. My action could be the same but my intention could change and I could end the possibility of being angry.

Ever since I realized that my intentions were selfish rather than selfless now holding the door for someone is holding the door for someone. It is now my intention to hold the door because it is a small selfless act. No more angry door holding.
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very Zen of you.
Good intentions lead to good behaviors
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Andalublue said:
Annata. It's been a while since I've seen you posting. Good to see you!
Click to expand...
and you too.
I come and go and it was fortuitous I came while Risky was positing this idea
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Andalublue said:
It depends on how you define morality, and on what you mean by 'has no bearing'. I think what you, and perhaps many in this thread are interested in is: if karma is a process whereby the consequences of behaviour rebound or resound going forward in time, how do we know whether good behaviour results in positive effects and bad behaviour results in negative effects?

What I'm saying is that there's no such thing really as 'good' and 'bad', since nothing is wholly good or bad. Nature just isn't about a bi-polar duality.
Click to expand...

It has been established that karma can be positively or negatively affected, so even if the world is more nuanced, it appears that karma has some kind of scale, it 'decides' what happens to you at the boundary between each 'life' correct? I do think you're right, one of the things I'm interested in is how different acts affect your karma. What pushes you up the scale, and what pushes you down. If it is truly internalized, then people who believe they are doing the right thing (sorry to invoke Godwin, but e.g. Hitler) would positively be affected by karma.

Risky Thicket said:
Karma stems from your intentions actions not the intentions and actions of others. Karma isn't really "good" or "bad".

What is an example of someone doing something really bad but with really good intentions?

If your intention, from your heart if you like, is to act with loving kindness towards another person I don't know how karma could be negatively affected.
Click to expand...

A primitive tribesman see's a small child get bitten by a snake/spider. Unbeknownst to him, there is a hospital with a readily available anti-venom nearby. Because he doesn't know this, he slices off the childs arm to prevent the venom spreading. His intentions were to save the childs life, but the action, and the consequences, are clearly detrimental to the child. Say, for example, the child later gets an infection from the wound and dies. It's impossible to call this act morally good or morally bad. To the doctor at the hospital, the act is morally bad. To the tribesmans wife, who also has no knowledge of the antivenom, the act is morally good. How does karma fit in with such acts?
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Risky Thicket said:
In a recent thread Logicman asked the question "Who directs karma?" I encouraged him to start a thread about it and promised to respond. He apparently elected not to start a thread, but it was a good question.

Here I will preface my response by saying that no one has ever accused me of being an authority on Buddhism. I am not. Also it is important to note that karma is a complex concept and as I understand it karma is defined in varying ways among eastern religions.

Who directs karma?

1. No one. Buddhism does not believe in a creator god.

2. In practical (and simple) terms, you are responsible for your karma. Your karma is a result of your intentions and your actions.
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The problem with that is that we know really bad things happen to good people, and at times it looks like the evil go unpunished. So where's the Karma there?

In Christianity, there's a God that, in the end, sets all things right. So that makes better sense.
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Risky Thicket said:
Karma stems from your intentions actions not the intentions and actions of others. Karma isn't really "good" or "bad".

What is an example of someone doing something really bad but with really good intentions?

If your intention, from your heart if you like, is to act with loving kindness towards another person I don't know how karma could be negatively affected.

Let me give you quick example. I was raised to hold the door for people if I am at the threshold of a door to a building or in a building, that sort of thing. It used to pissed me off when I would hold a door and a person or if people would walk through and not acknowledge my "good" deed, my generous act.

Who was wrong? Me, not them! Why? My intention. Buddhism taught me to deal with anger, which was how I first became involved with Buddhism.

Anger over door holding acknowledgement was wrong. Stupid, actually.

Why was I angry? Because some people didn't say "thank you".

What was my intention when holding the door? Being honest with myself, my intention was actually to be acknowledged for committing a selfless act. My intention then wasn't based on loving kindness, it wasn't a selfless act. The results of my actions then set me up to be angry. I very much do not enjoy anger. My action could be the same but my intention could change and I could end the possibility of being angry.

Ever since I realized that my intentions were selfish rather than selfless now holding the door for someone is holding the door for someone. It is now my intention to hold the door because it is a small selfless act. No more angry door holding.
Click to expand...

Absolutely this!

I always tried to behave properly and politely to people, even towards those who didn't do so to me. Why? Because I think I felt that in behaving better to others than they behaved towards me gave me some kind of moral superiority. Why the hell should it? There are thousands of ways in which behaviour is constrained by circumstance such that good people can appear to behave badly, and vice versa.

The appearance of behaving well or badly is not the same thing as actually behaving well or badly or, even if it is, the totality of one's behaviour is not defined entirely by how one behaves at every single moment of existence, unless you are a saint or bodhisattva. If you believe that karma exists, then you also believe that it has nothing whatsoever to do with judgement of good and bad.

I think this is a Tibetan Buddhist quote:

Buddhism is a nontheistic philosophy. We do not believe in a creator but in the causes and conditions that create certain circumstances that then come to fruition. This is called karma. It has nothing to do with judgement; there is no one keeping track of our karma and sending us up above or down below. Karma is simply the wholeness of a cause, or first action, and its effect, or fruition, which then becomes another cause. In fact, one karmic cause can have many fruitions, all of which can cause thousands more creations. Just as a handful of seed can ripen into a full field of grain, a small amount of karma can generate limitless effects.
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Re: Who Directs Karma?

Nilly said:
So is good/bad karma objective or relative? If your actions are perceived as good by one person but bad by another, is it good or bad karma? If it is defined internally does that mean that if you believe you are doing a good thing, it's good karma, even if it's actually really bad?
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If you believe you are doing good, but your actions are bad, you will receive bad karma, but not as bad as if you had bad intentions. If you commit a good act, but with detachment, and no good intention, you will not receive good karma.
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Nilly said:
It has been established that karma can be positively or negatively affected, so even if the world is more nuanced, it appears that karma has some kind of scale, it 'decides' what happens to you at the boundary between each 'life' correct? I do think you're right, one of the things I'm interested in is how different acts affect your karma. What pushes you up the scale, and what pushes you down. If it is truly internalized, then people who believe they are doing the right thing (sorry to invoke Godwin, but e.g. Hitler) would positively be affected by karma.



A primitive tribesman see's a small child get bitten by a snake/spider. Unbeknownst to him, there is a hospital with a readily available anti-venom nearby. Because he doesn't know this, he slices off the childs arm to prevent the venom spreading. His intentions were to save the childs life, but the action, and the consequences, are clearly detrimental to the child. Say, for example, the child later gets an infection from the wound and dies. It's impossible to call this act morally good or morally bad. To the doctor at the hospital, the act is morally bad. To the tribesmans wife, who also has no knowledge of the antivenom, the act is morally good. How does karma fit in with such acts?
Click to expand...
Either intentions matter or they don't. I tend to believe they do, but that's only my take on it, filtered through my own meditations.

Bad consequences of good intentions, or good consequences of bad intentions? I guess that in the future, with greater wisdom resulting from great effort, we might be able to discern a way to maximise the good and minimise the bad, but I'm not holding my breath. What of most importance, I reckon, is that we worry and think, and pray and meditate about these issues. What other hope have we?
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

spud_meister said:
If you believe you are doing good, but your actions are bad, you will receive bad karma, but not as bad as if you had bad intentions. If you commit a good act, but with detachment, and no good intention, you will not receive good karma.
Click to expand...

How is that decided? Whether your action is good or bad?
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Logicman said:
The problem with that is that we know really bad things happen to good people, and at times it looks like the evil go unpunished. So where's the Karma there?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. The karma is there.

I think we have all seen truly bad things happen to people we know and love and we've questioned our own beliefs. How could God let this happen? How could such a good person have so many or such bad things happen to them. They don't deserve it.

No doubt, however brief, those questions come to all of us at some point in time.

As Christians when one reaches a point where the is no obvious answer the response might often be, "It's God's will." I don't discount that. I would characterize it differently but within the Christian faith I understand it.

Buddhists in a different way may come to the same conclusion.

Not all Buddhists believe in rebirth, and that can be a long discussion in and of itself, but I do. It isn't desirable. Rebith isn't a "do over". Nor is life a one time deal. Karma accumulates (which is not exactly correct) or carries over or influences future lives. Good people in this life could have been really rotten in previous lives. We don't know.

The fact is we don't know that person's inner struggles, desires, challenges, victories, accomplishments. We certainly may know what we see, but few if any really knows what goes on within.

That we will all suffer and we will all die are two of the Four Noble Truths.

In Christianity, there's a God that, in the end, sets all things right. So that makes better sense.
Click to expand...

I can understand that and don't have a problem with it at all. For me, however, it doesn't make sense.
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

absolutely intention matter: this is direct from the Buddha

The Eightfold Path | Tricycle

1. Right Understanding (Samma ditthi)
2. Right Thought (Samma sankappa)
3. Right Speech (Samma vaca)
4. Right Action (Samma kammanta)
5. Right Livelihood (Samma ajiva)
6. Right Effort (Samma vayama)
7. Right Mindfulness (Samma sati)
8. Right Concentration (Samma Samadhi

These eight factors aim at promoting and perfecting the three essentials of Buddhist training and discipline:
namely: (a) Ethical Conduct (Sila), (b) Mental Discipline (Samadhi) and (c) Wisdom (Panna).
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Nilly said:
A primitive tribesman see's a small child get bitten by a snake/spider. Unbeknownst to him, there is a hospital with a readily available anti-venom nearby. Because he doesn't know this, he slices off the childs arm to prevent the venom spreading. His intentions were to save the childs life, but the action, and the consequences, are clearly detrimental to the child. Say, for example, the child later gets an infection from the wound and dies. It's impossible to call this act morally good or morally bad. To the doctor at the hospital, the act is morally bad. To the tribesmans wife, who also has no knowledge of the antivenom, the act is morally good. How does karma fit in with such acts?
Click to expand...

In my opinion his intentions were truly compassionate and loving. BUT, I'm not the decider. ;)
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Risky Thicket said:
:lamo So what do you think, maybe 3,600 more? ;)
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lol..I once heard the chances of karmic rebirth as human is like being adrift in the ocean alone and being resuced.

In other words, there are many more rebirths as non-human -because most humans do not self perfect.
Karmic re-birth comes to another state of existence
Moral: So use this life as the opportunity it is.
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Risky Thicket said:
In my opinion his intentions were truly compassionate and loving. BUT, I'm not the decider. ;)
Click to expand...

I'm guessing that a lot of people are thinking that we need to nominate a decider. If we haven't got one then what kind of a 'faith' might we be?

I use the words 'faith' and 'we' fairly loosely.
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Risky Thicket said:
As Christians when one reaches a point where the is no obvious answer the response might often be, "It's God's will." I don't discount that. I would characterize it differently but within the Christian faith I understand it.

Buddhists in a different way may come to the same conclusion.
Click to expand...

The conclusion Christians come to when having to reconcile good things happening to bad people and vice versa is that it's some kind of master plan at work. How can buddhists can arrive at the same conclusion, without a master plan? Without an entity, there can be no master plan, right?


Risky Thicket said:
Not all Buddhists believe in rebirth, and that can be a long discussion in and of itself, but I do. It isn't desirable. Rebith isn't a "do over". Nor is life a one time deal. Karma accumulates (which is not exactly correct) or carries over or influences future lives. Good people in this life could have been really rotten in previous lives. We don't know.

The fact is we don't know that person's inner struggles, desires, challenges, victories, accomplishments. We certainly may know what we see, but few if any really knows what goes on within.

That we will all suffer and we will all die are two of the Four Noble Truths.

I can understand that and don't have a problem with it at all. For me, however, it doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

So essentially if a bad thing happens to a person you perceive as good, it's probably because secretly inside they're bad? Or at least they were in a previous life?

Does karma always work? Is it infallible? Or does it only kick in a percentage of the time? Good deeds are sometimes rewarded and sometimes not?

Risky Thicket said:
In my opinion his intentions were truly compassionate and loving. BUT, I'm not the decider. ;)
Click to expand...

Who is the decider?
 
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Re: Who Directs Karma?

Risky Thicket said:
Absolutely. The karma is there.

I think we have all seen truly bad things happen to people we know and love and we've questioned our own beliefs. How could God let this happen? How could such a good person have so many or such bad things happen to them. They don't deserve it.
Click to expand...

Besides there being a real devil who is a liar and a murderer, God give people free will, and they all answer for their actions at the Judgment.

Risky Thicket said:
Buddhists in a different way may come to the same conclusion.

Not all Buddhists believe in rebirth, and that can be a long discussion in and of itself, but I do. It isn't desirable. Rebith isn't a "do over". Nor is life a one time deal. Karma accumulates (which is not exactly correct) or carries over or influences future lives. Good people in this life could have been really rotten in previous lives. We don't know.
Click to expand...

There has to be a controlling mechanism to dispense karma/justice and cause a "rebirth" to happen. Just saying it happens isn't very convincing.

Is there a famous example of a reincarnation / rebirth? Name of a person?

Also, if people don't remember what they did wrong in a prior life, how do they know they're making progress?

In addition, if the goal of karma is to eventually result in an earthly Utopia with "good people" living there, why isn't it making progress after all these thousands of years?

Also, do you believe some people, because of bad karma, have a rebirth as say, a temple rat?
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

annata said:
lol..I once heard the chances of karmic rebirth as human is like being adrift in the ocean alone and being resuced.

In other words, there are many more rebirths as non-human -because most humans do not self perfect.
Karmic re-birth comes to another state of existence
Moral: So use this life as the opportunity it is.
Click to expand...

Very true. I don't assume anything. I don't assume that being reincarnated as something non-human would be disastrous, perhaps I should. I don't think that behaving well in this realm guarantees enlightenment. Why should it?

All I know is that, given karmic logic, the better you behave in this life, the better the chances you might have in the future.
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Andalublue said:
Very true. I don't assume anything. I don't assume that being reincarnated as something non-human would be disastrous, perhaps I should. I don't think that behaving well in this realm guarantees enlightenment. Why should it?

All I know is that, given karmic logic, the better you behave in this life, the better the chances you might have in the future.
Click to expand...

I need to get to the bottom of this, what/who is the judge of your behaviour. What classes some behaviour as better than other behaviour?
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Andalublue said:
Very true. I don't assume anything. I don't assume that being reincarnated as something non-human would be disastrous, perhaps I should. I don't think that behaving well in this realm guarantees enlightenment. Why should it?

All I know is that, given karmic logic, the better you behave in this life, the better the chances you might have in the future.
Click to expand...
look at the bottom of this page for realms of existence -> The Wheel of Life - Aesthetics of Suffering and Salvation

karmic rebirth is exacting, that much I understand. If you look at the realms of existence on the wheel, the craven, hateful, vengeful (etc)
are rebirthed in the lower realms, but I think almost any of us could be reborn in animal realm if not human..
but this is judgemental on my part and I don't fully understand it.

So be good! lol
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Dukkha

"Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."
 
Re: Who Directs Karma?

Logicman said:
Besides there being a real devil who is a liar and a murderer, God give people free will, and they all answer for their actions at the Judgment.
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I don't believe in a real devil. But answering for your actions at judgement is another way of saying karma, is it not?

There has to be a controlling mechanism to dispense karma/justice and cause a "rebirth" to happen. Just saying it happens isn't very convincing.

Is there a famous example of a reincarnation / rebirth? Name of a person?
Click to expand...

Jesus.

Also, if people don't remember what they did wrong in a prior life, how do they know they're making progress?
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It's not like you rack up frequent flier miles or check off points. Here's how I know. I continue to get the same lessons over and over in many forms until I get the particular lesson right. It never fails. I'm a slow learner but when I learn I don't repeat that lesson again. But immediately another lesson takes its place. We have many, many lessons going on at the same time.

In addition, if the goal of karma is to eventually result in an earthly Utopia with "good people" living there, why isn't it making progress after all these thousands of years?
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Karma has no goal that I am aware of. I know nothing about an earthly utopia. Our earth reality is an illusion.

Also, do you believe some people, because of bad karma, have a rebirth as say, a temple rat?
Click to expand...

Some do, I do not. But at times I wonder how I might have compassion for all sentient beings if I have not experienced their existence. If that is truth my experience as a scorpion or spider is going to be a real bitch.
 
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