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What kind of worship does God expect from us?

phattonez

phattonez

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I bring this up for a few reasons. The first is that in the Protestant school that I went to, there seemed to be no rubric that was gone by. In other words, there would be some hymns of varying quality (typically trite, in my opinion), and then a speaker, and maybe a hymn at the end. I've heard this referred to colloquially as the "Hymn Sandwich".

Is this really what the Lord desires from us? Is this what we are taught to do? Is there any rubric that we should follow?

In addition to this, I have noticed that these services tend to be all about creating happiness in the congregation and making sure that people leave feeling better about themselves and/or determined to do better. Now, these are not bad things, but this also seems totally secular. You don't really need God for these things.

In light of this, I wanted to highlight a few quotes from the Lauds that I have been praying the past few days (I love praying some of the Liturgy of the Hours as a Lenten observance).

From Psalm 5:
"But I through the abundance of thy steadfast love
will enter thy house,
I will worship toward thy holy temple
in the fear of thee."

Psalm 51 (the great Psalm of David's contrition):
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will proclaim your praise;
for you do not delight in sacrifices:
if I offered you a burnt offering, it would not please you.
The true sacrifice is a broken spirit:
a contrite and humble heart, O God, you will not refuse.
Be pleased, Lord, to look kindly on Zion,
so that the walls of Jerusalem can be rebuilt,
Then indeed you will accept the proper sacrifices, gifts and burnt offerings;
then indeed will bullocks be laid upon your altar."

Many will point to the first half of this psalm to show that see, what the Lord desires is only for us to purify ourselves. While yes, this is primary, note the second half. The Lord will accept our sacrifices once we rectify our lives. Do our services offer sacrifice to the Lord? And if so, what is that sacrifice?

Next, I found this quote from Jesus as especially interesting:
"If your virtue does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Note that Jesus mentions the virtue of the scribes and Pharisees. Isn't this interesting? Usually we are lead to believe that the Pharisees were all evil, as were the scribes. It seems instead what is happening is that they are being held to a higher standard because they are in power. Did they do evil? Yes of course, and Jesus calls them out on that. But we are called to be more virtuous than even they. It should make you think twice about whether we discard everything that is associated with them. Maybe we should focus on what exactly it was that Jesus was so upset with them about.

Finally, there is this peculiar verse from the end of the letter to the Hebrews:
"We have an altar from which those who serve the tent[c] have no right to eat."

We have an altar? We eat from the altar? Why, what could this mean? I'll leave that for you to decide.

God bless and have a fruitful Lent everyone!
 
phattonez said:
I bring this up for a few reasons. The first is that in the Protestant school that I went to, there seemed to be no rubric that was gone by. In other words, there would be some hymns of varying quality (typically trite, in my opinion), and then a speaker, and maybe a hymn at the end. I've heard this referred to colloquially as the "Hymn Sandwich".

Is this really what the Lord desires from us? Is this what we are taught to do? Is there any rubric that we should follow?

In addition to this, I have noticed that these services tend to be all about creating happiness in the congregation and making sure that people leave feeling better about themselves and/or determined to do better. Now, these are not bad things, but this also seems totally secular. You don't really need God for these things.

In light of this, I wanted to highlight a few quotes from the Lauds that I have been praying the past few days (I love praying some of the Liturgy of the Hours as a Lenten observance).

From Psalm 5:
"But I through the abundance of thy steadfast love
will enter thy house,
I will worship toward thy holy temple
in the fear of thee."

Psalm 51 (the great Psalm of David's contrition):
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will proclaim your praise;
for you do not delight in sacrifices:
if I offered you a burnt offering, it would not please you.
The true sacrifice is a broken spirit:
a contrite and humble heart, O God, you will not refuse.
Be pleased, Lord, to look kindly on Zion,
so that the walls of Jerusalem can be rebuilt,
Then indeed you will accept the proper sacrifices, gifts and burnt offerings;
then indeed will bullocks be laid upon your altar."

Many will point to the first half of this psalm to show that see, what the Lord desires is only for us to purify ourselves. While yes, this is primary, note the second half. The Lord will accept our sacrifices once we rectify our lives. Do our services offer sacrifice to the Lord? And if so, what is that sacrifice?

Next, I found this quote from Jesus as especially interesting:
"If your virtue does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Note that Jesus mentions the virtue of the scribes and Pharisees. Isn't this interesting? Usually we are lead to believe that the Pharisees were all evil, as were the scribes. It seems instead what is happening is that they are being held to a higher standard because they are in power. Did they do evil? Yes of course, and Jesus calls them out on that. But we are called to be more virtuous than even they. It should make you think twice about whether we discard everything that is associated with them. Maybe we should focus on what exactly it was that Jesus was so upset with them about.

Finally, there is this peculiar verse from the end of the letter to the Hebrews:
"We have an altar from which those who serve the tent[c] have no right to eat."

We have an altar? We eat from the altar? Why, what could this mean? I'll leave that for you to decide.

God bless and have a fruitful Lent everyone!
Click to expand...

I think He was bored with wine, women and song and expects sex, drugs and rock&roll from us now.
Not that He likes it. But, hey man, He knows we're degenerate.
 
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phattonez said:
I bring this up for a few reasons. The first is that in the Protestant school that I went to, there seemed to be no rubric that was gone by. In other words, there would be some hymns of varying quality (typically trite, in my opinion), and then a speaker, and maybe a hymn at the end. I've heard this referred to colloquially as the "Hymn Sandwich".
Click to expand...

The liturgy has been the same in Christian churches since the very early days of the church: Prayer, singing, sharing of peace and greetings, reading of scripture, sermon or homily, the Eucharist, and sending forth or benediction. Confession is either public (a sort of generic confession that everyone shares these days) or private and may be something one does to prepare for worship or is part of worship depending on the sect and congregation.

As for what the Lord demands: Praise, thanks and petition, which are the elements of any public prayer. We praise God, we thank God for our blessings, we ask God for His forgiveness and guidance. For an example look to the Lord’s Prayer.

When God became the head of the Roman church, replacing the emperor, a Bible was placed on a table where the emperor's throne used to be. This is where the elements rest in preparation for the Eucharist, which replaced animal sacrifice.

It's all just traditional as far as I know, although the elements of prayer are implied in scripture, and we are ordered by Christ to participate in the Eucharist. It was the Protestant tradition to strip away all the excess and leave the bare bones of the sanctuary, which are the altar, a podium, pews for the choir and pews for the congregation.
 
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We are "God" or whatever you choose to call it. Either God is ALL or there are others. What is God jealous of if there are no other Gods? Why is God jealous? Why is God insecure in that God needs to be worshipped?

All things are God or they aren't.

If you believe that there is something other than All or One then, while I don't agree, I must accept your belief.

If "God" is ALL then there is nothing with which God can be compared. Indeed even the word "All" is a comparison and thus limits the concept of God. If you accept that God is ALL then you are God as am I as are all things. We are then not a part of God as that would again indicate that God is not ALL.

Would that then not mean that what is done for/to one is done for all and that what is done for all is done for/to one? All is inseparable. Then would not worship then be respect, appreciation and love for sentient beings and all things not man made? "Do unto others..."
 
LowDown said:
The liturgy has been the same in Christian churches since the very early days of the church: Prayer, singing, sharing of peace and greetings, reading of scripture, sermon or homily, the Eucharist, and sending forth or benediction. Confession is either public (a sort of generic confession that everyone shares these days) or private and may be something one does to prepare for worship or is part of worship depending on the sect and congregation.

As for what the Lord demands: Praise, thanks and petition, which are the elements of any public prayer. We praise God, we thank God for our blessings, we ask God for His forgiveness and guidance. For an example look to the Lord’s Prayer.

When God became the head of the Roman church, replacing the emperor, a Bible was placed on a table where the emperor's throne used to be. This is where the elements rest in preparation for the Eucharist, which replaced animal sacrifice.

It's all just traditional as far as I know, although the elements of prayer are implied in scripture, and we are ordered by Christ to participate in the Eucharist. It was the Protestant tradition to strip away all the excess and leave the bare bones of the sanctuary, which are the altar, a podium, pews for the choir and pews for the congregation.
Click to expand...

And what are your thoughts on the goodness of that Protestant transformation?
 
Risky Thicket said:
We are "God" or whatever you choose to call it. Either God is ALL or there are others. What is God jealous of if there are no other Gods? Why is God jealous? Why is God insecure in that God needs to be worshipped?

All things are God or they aren't.

If you believe that there is something other than All or One then, while I don't agree, I must accept your belief.

If "God" is ALL then there is nothing with which God can be compared. Indeed even the word "All" is a comparison and thus limits the concept of God. If you accept that God is ALL then you are God as am I as are all things. We are then not a part of God as that would again indicate that God is not ALL.

Would that then not mean that what is done for/to one is done for all and that what is done for all is done for/to one? All is inseparable. Then would not worship then be respect, appreciation and love for sentient beings and all things not man made? "Do unto others..."
Click to expand...

RT, apparent "for some - maybe many" the belief or ideology, in context to the necessity of God being worshipped (worshiped), seems to be along the line of...

God Speaking through men via ancient scrolls: "Worship me - so that I don't have to do all of the things I will do to you - if you don't."

Ahhhh, that's pure love there, Bro.

I posted following the other day in a thread about different beliefs. It's something I heard when I was in my late teens:

"God seeks to know "itself" by becoming a thing (probably meaning an universal entity/deity) through creation."

If I had been a "God believing person" at that time (or really ever), that would have been an idea or concept to ponder. But that idea or concept implies that there had to be a beginning of God, which goes against many religions tenets.

Oh what webs are weave. If we really get down to the nitty gritty. There are 7 billion people, all of whom have created 7 billion beliefs about God.
 
phattonez said:
And what are your thoughts on the goodness of that Protestant transformation?
Click to expand...

It was good that a correction was applied to the excesses and corruption of the Roman Catholic Church, but it's high time the Church was unified again.
 
If God does expect some particular kind of worship from us, I'd rather we not try and speak for him as to what it is he wants. That tends to not necessarily work out so well.

If forced to give an answer though, I'd opt to say God expects no particular kind of worship from us other than perhaps, at the most basic level, acknowledging his existence.
 
Removable Mind said:
RT, apparent "for some - maybe many" the belief or ideology, in context to the necessity of God being worshipped (worshiped), seems to be along the line of...

God Speaking through men via ancient scrolls: "Worship me - so that I don't have to do all of the things I will do to you - if you don't."

Ahhhh, that's pure love there, Bro.

I posted following the other day in a thread about different beliefs. It's something I heard when I was in my late teens:

"God seeks to know "itself" by becoming a thing (probably meaning an universal entity/deity) through creation."

If I had been a "God believing person" at that time (or really ever), that would have been an idea or concept to ponder. But that idea or concept implies that there had to be a beginning of God, which goes against many religions tenets.

Oh what webs are weave. If we really get down to the nitty gritty. There are 7 billion people, all of whom have created 7 billion beliefs about God.
Click to expand...

That was one of the first questions I had concerning religion when I was a kid. Adults hated it when I questioned their answers because their answers weren't complete. The responses were "Some things are known only unto God" (which I distinctly remember because then I asked what "unto" meant, and got a don't be a smartass look in return) to "We'll find out when we go to heaven" to "It is part of our faith".

When the Buddha was asked about creation he responded in essence, "What difference does it make? It has no bearing on becoming enlightened and focusing on that among other things is of no help on the path." Indeed it is true.

I know many good Christians. I know them well enough to say that they would continue to be good Christians even if they concluded the Big Bang to be fact.
 
Removable Mind said:
RT, apparent "for some - maybe many" the belief or ideology, in context to the necessity of God being worshipped (worshiped), seems to be along the line of...

God Speaking through men via ancient scrolls: "Worship me - so that I don't have to do all of the things I will do to you - if you don't."

Ahhhh, that's pure love there, Bro.

I posted following the other day in a thread about different beliefs. It's something I heard when I was in my late teens:

"God seeks to know "itself" by becoming a thing (probably meaning an universal entity/deity) through creation."

If I had been a "God believing person" at that time (or really ever), that would have been an idea or concept to ponder. But that idea or concept implies that there had to be a beginning of God, which goes against many religions tenets.

Oh what webs are weave. If we really get down to the nitty gritty. There are 7 billion people, all of whom have created 7 billion beliefs about God.
Click to expand...

No, the vast majority of people are members of a few major religions that are remarkably similar to each other when it comes to how people should act. The wrathful god punishing his children is a favorite bugaboo of nonbelievers, but it doesn't have much to do with any of the major religions any more.
 
Risky Thicket said:
That was one of the first questions I had concerning religion when I was a kid. Adults hated it when I questioned their answers because their answers weren't complete. The responses were "Some things are known only unto God" (which I distinctly remember because then I asked what "unto" meant, and got a don't be a smartass look in return) to "We'll find out when we go to heaven" to "It is part of our faith".

When the Buddha was asked about creation he responded in essence, "What difference does it make? It has no bearing on becoming enlightened and focusing on that among other things is of no help on the path." Indeed it is true.

I know many good Christians. I know them well enough to say that they would continue to be good Christians even if they concluded the Big Bang to be fact.
Click to expand...

When I was a kid I just wanted to know why angels had bird wings. In my mind, even as a dumbass kid, that seemed like such an encumbering, slow way to get around. Hell, Santa Claus could travel way faster according to my estimates... :lol:
 
Risky Thicket said:
We are "God" or whatever you choose to call it. Either God is ALL or there are others.
Click to expand...

What is, "God is ALL?" Where did you get the idea that we are God?


What is God jealous of if there are no other Gods? Why is God jealous?
Click to expand...

That is a very shallow of seeing it. It's not that God is jealous.

How would you feel if you've been providing for a person, and he turns around and started thanking and singing praises of another (instead of you). To say that that person whom you've been providing for is ungrateful, is an understatement!


Why is God insecure in that God needs to be worshipped?
Click to expand...

That's from your human perspective. It's shallow, too.

How is One who can just as easily crush the life out of you, or should He choose, wipe out mankind anytime to start all over again, be insecure????

That He had not done so, despite of all the ungrateful and sinful wretches, does not reveal insecurity.
Just listen to the way He's being maligned in this forum alone. Why does He let us go on.....and on....and on.....

That shows an amazing attribute of patience!



All things are God or they aren't.

If you believe that there is something other than All or One then, while I don't agree, I must accept your belief.

If "God" is ALL then there is nothing with which God can be compared. Indeed even the word "All" is a comparison and thus limits the concept of God. If you accept that God is ALL then you are God as am I as are all things. We are then not a part of God as that would again indicate that God is not ALL.

Would that then not mean that what is done for/to one is done for all and that what is done for all is done for/to one? All is inseparable. Then would not worship then be respect, appreciation and love for sentient beings and all things not man made? "Do unto others..."
Click to expand...


I don't know what you're talking about here.
 
tosca1 said:
What is, "God is ALL?" Where did you get the idea that we are God?




That is a very shallow of seeing it. It's not that God is jealous.

How would you feel if you've been providing for a person, and he turns around and started thanking and singing praises of another (instead of you). To say that that person whom you've been providing for is ungrateful, is an understatement!




That's from your human perspective. It's shallow, too.

How is One who can just as easily crush the life out of you, or should He choose, wipe out mankind anytime to start all over again, be insecure????

That He had not done so, despite of all the ungrateful and sinful wretches, does not reveal insecurity.
Just listen to the way He's being maligned in this forum alone. Why does He let us go on.....and on....and on.....

That shows an amazing attribute of patience!






I don't know what you're talking about here.
Click to expand...

Toscal, if you don't mind I was hoping to have a bit of a conversation with Phat relating to the OP. My intention was to discuss religious perspectives, not to bludgeon one another. I was planning to avoid proof texting and circle logic.

I am well acquainted with your brand of Christianity. If it brings peace, joy and love to your life I am all for it. Understand that your particular path doesn't work for me.
 
LowDown said:
It was good that a correction was applied to the excesses and corruption of the Roman Catholic Church, but it's high time the Church was unified again.
Click to expand...

Of course, though the Protestant revolt consisted of far more than correcting abuses present in the Church. Going to doctrinal issues, it was completely off on all bases.

Still, in this unified Church, would you rather the public liturgy be along the lines of a Protestant service, or the Mass?
 
Luftwaffe said:
If God does expect some particular kind of worship from us, I'd rather we not try and speak for him as to what it is he wants. That tends to not necessarily work out so well.

If forced to give an answer though, I'd opt to say God expects no particular kind of worship from us other than perhaps, at the most basic level, acknowledging his existence.
Click to expand...

That's not what I'm reading from the texts.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Toscal, if you don't mind I was hoping to have a bit of a conversation with Phat relating to the OP. My intention was to discuss religious perspectives, not to bludgeon one another. I was planning to avoid proof texting and circle logic.

I am well acquainted with your brand of Christianity. If it brings peace, joy and love to your life I am all for it. Understand that your particular path doesn't work for me.
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem like you understand this particular path very well.
 
phattonez said:
Of course, though the Protestant revolt consisted of far more than correcting abuses present in the Church. Going to doctrinal issues, it was completely off on all bases.

Still, in this unified Church, would you rather the public liturgy be along the lines of a Protestant service, or the Mass?
Click to expand...

The liturgies are already pretty close. This is by design. As a protestant I'd like to see them lose the incense burner, but it's not a big deal.

I think it will be a while before certain sticking points are resolved, like the veneration of the Saints, the authority of the Pope, celibate priests. And perhaps the biggest one of all is the authority of priests. Protestants believe in the priesthood of the believer, so congregations are not run by priests but by ministers. Ministers have no gate keeping authority (although some of them do try). A threat to withhold a sacrament is absurd to Protestants because they can damn well do the sacrament on their own, although a lot of lay people probably don't realize it.
 
Risky Thicket said:
I understand that within your religion you don't believe that.

Why does "God" need to be worshipped in the manner that you describe?
Click to expand...

I think the idea is that we get a lot more benefit out of the deal than God does.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Toscal, if you don't mind I was hoping to have a bit of a conversation with Phat relating to the OP. My intention was to discuss religious perspectives, not to bludgeon one another. I was planning to avoid proof texting and circle logic.

I am well acquainted with your brand of Christianity. If it brings peace, joy and love to your life I am all for it. Understand that your particular path doesn't work for me.
Click to expand...

I do mind! I'm reacting to your statement....and I don't think you can exclude anyone from jumping in.

I don't care about your opinion of my "brand of Christianity." That's not the issue. My issue is with your comment that I've quoted.
 
phattonez said:
I bring this up for a few reasons. The first is that in the Protestant school that I went to, there seemed to be no rubric that was gone by. In other words, there would be some hymns of varying quality (typically trite, in my opinion), and then a speaker, and maybe a hymn at the end. I've heard this referred to colloquially as the "Hymn Sandwich".

Is this really what the Lord desires from us? Is this what we are taught to do? Is there any rubric that we should follow?
Click to expand...


I think what is required from us was stated simply: love and glorify Him. To give thanks and praise.

Singing hymns seems to be pleasing to God, so is praying in solitude (without display), and as a group.
This quote tells us how to pray:


Matthew 6
Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.




In addition to this, I have noticed that these services tend to be all about creating happiness in the congregation and making sure that people leave feeling better about themselves and/or determined to do better. Now, these are not bad things, but this also seems totally secular. You don't really need God for these things.
Click to expand...

Perhaps we do need God for these things. The Apostles had the same problems that churches face when it comes with the congregation. There tends to be in-fighting. Thus, that's what fellowship is all about I suppose. It's a learning process - we try to curb our impulses in consideration of others, and learn to bite our tongue....we strive for the same goal, as one in Christ.

It's not secular, I don't think so - at least not with us Christians. We have the reason why we go through and do these things - Christ.
 
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