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What kind of worship does God expect from us?

LowDown said:
I think the idea is that we get a lot more benefit out of the deal than God does.
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Thank you, LD.

I practice Zen. I can't think of anything we would do in the same manner. Of course the focus is different. Meditation, and there are different types, is certainly beneficial. But I know that Christians also meditate.
 
phattonez said:
Next, I found this quote from Jesus as especially interesting:
"If your virtue does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Note that Jesus mentions the virtue of the scribes and Pharisees. Isn't this interesting? Usually we are lead to believe that the Pharisees were all evil, as were the scribes. It seems instead what is happening is that they are being held to a higher standard because they are in power. Did they do evil? Yes of course, and Jesus calls them out on that. But we are called to be more virtuous than even they. It should make you think twice about whether we discard everything that is associated with them. Maybe we should focus on what exactly it was that Jesus was so upset with them about.
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I've been mulling on that quote. If we have to surpass their virtute in order to enter the kingdom of heaven - what does that really say about the virtue of the Pharisees?

Jesus didn't say we have to equal the virtue of the pharisees, but that we have to surpass them.
It sounds that they're found lacking, that's why we have to surpass them!

If we simply equal them - we won't get into the Kingdom of Heaven - which means, the Pharisees
(with their virtue) aren't going in the Kingdom of Heaven.

That's what I'm getting from this quote.....
 
phattonez said:
Of course, though the Protestant revolt consisted of far more than correcting abuses present in the Church. Going to doctrinal issues, it was completely off on all bases.

Still, in this unified Church, would you rather the public liturgy be along the lines of a Protestant service, or the Mass?
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First off, let me say I am glad to see you here again, Phatz, we needed an educated voice on this forum. That said, there are many of what you would call "Protestant" services that are no different from the "Mass", the only difference being that you don't call them "Catholic" because they are not under the auspices of Rome.
 
LowDown said:
The liturgies are already pretty close. This is by design. As a protestant I'd like to see them lose the incense burner, but it's not a big deal.
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Incense is very Biblical, it represents the prayers of the saints. (Rev. 5:8)

I think it will be a while before certain sticking points are resolved, like the veneration of the Saints, the authority of the Pope, celibate priests. And perhaps the biggest one of all is the authority of priests. Protestants believe in the priesthood of the believer, so congregations are not run by priests but by ministers. Ministers have no gate keeping authority (although some of them do try). A threat to withhold a sacrament is absurd to Protestants because they can damn well do the sacrament on their own, although a lot of lay people probably don't realize it.
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What "authority" do priests have, other than to serve at the altar? The so-called "priesthood of the laity" exists to spread the Gospel, not to handle the sacraments. And no, the laity cannot perform the Eucharist on their own, because it won't be the sacrament, it will only be communion wafers and wine.
 
LowDown said:
The liturgies are already pretty close. This is by design. As a protestant I'd like to see them lose the incense burner, but it's not a big deal.

I think it will be a while before certain sticking points are resolved, like the veneration of the Saints, the authority of the Pope, celibate priests. And perhaps the biggest one of all is the authority of priests. Protestants believe in the priesthood of the believer, so congregations are not run by priests but by ministers. Ministers have no gate keeping authority (although some of them do try). A threat to withhold a sacrament is absurd to Protestants because they can damn well do the sacrament on their own, although a lot of lay people probably don't realize it.
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By the way, "minister" is the generic name for the person performing a rite or ceremony, it is not an office of the church. It could be a layman, a Deacon, or a Priest. Other than the objections I have already posted, I generally agree with what you are saying.
 
LowDown said:
The liturgies are already pretty close. This is by design. As a protestant I'd like to see them lose the incense burner, but it's not a big deal.
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Are you high church Anglican? They're the only Protestants that I would call close by any stretch.

I think it will be a while before certain sticking points are resolved, like the veneration of the Saints, the authority of the Pope, celibate priests. And perhaps the biggest one of all is the authority of priests. Protestants believe in the priesthood of the believer, so congregations are not run by priests but by ministers. Ministers have no gate keeping authority (although some of them do try). A threat to withhold a sacrament is absurd to Protestants because they can damn well do the sacrament on their own, although a lot of lay people probably don't realize it.
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Catholics also believe in the priesthood of all believers, but differentiates that from the ordained priesthood. After all, only the 12 apostles were with Jesus during the Last Supper, and only the apostles were given the power to bind and loose.
 
Risky Thicket said:
I understand that within your religion you don't believe that.

Why does "God" need to be worshipped in the manner that you describe?
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Does the creator likely know far more what is better for the created than the created?
 
tosca1 said:
I think what is required from us was stated simply: love and glorify Him. To give thanks and praise.

Singing hymns seems to be pleasing to God, so is praying in solitude (without display), and as a group.
This quote tells us how to pray:


Matthew 6
Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
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But this doesn't really respond to what I posted.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Thank you, LD.

I practice Zen. I can't think of anything we would do in the same manner. Of course the focus is different. Meditation, and there are different types, is certainly beneficial. But I know that Christians also meditate.
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Though Zen gets you focusing on nothing, which is a major spiritual difference from Christianity.
 
tosca1 said:
I've been mulling on that quote. If we have to surpass their virtute in order to enter the kingdom of heaven - what does that really say about the virtue of the Pharisees?

Jesus didn't say we have to equal the virtue of the pharisees, but that we have to surpass them.
It sounds that they're found lacking, that's why we have to surpass them!

If we simply equal them - we won't get into the Kingdom of Heaven - which means, the Pharisees
(with their virtue) aren't going in the Kingdom of Heaven.

That's what I'm getting from this quote.....
Click to expand...

It also means that the Pharisees actually were quite virtuous, though yes, still lacking, and Jesus destroyed them for their hypocrisy for thinking that they are holy. They put too much confidence in their pious practices and lineage that they forgot that they owe everything to God.
 
it's just me said:
First off, let me say I am glad to see you here again, Phatz, we needed an educated voice on this forum. That said, there are many of what you would call "Protestant" services that are no different from the "Mass", the only difference being that you don't call them "Catholic" because they are not under the auspices of Rome.
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Thank you. But let's not be hasty and say "no different". Would you mind finding me some examples of what you see as being the same as the Mass?
 
phattonez said:
Though Zen gets you focusing on nothing, which is a major spiritual difference from Christianity.
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Not necessarily as it depends on the type of meditation. Actually it isn't a focus but rather an attempt not to focus. And it is easier said than done in my case. It would seem to me that clearing your mind of all thoughts would be beneficial to anyone of any religion or no religion at all.
 
phattonez said:
I bring this up for a few reasons. The first is that in the Protestant school that I went to, there seemed to be no rubric that was gone by. In other words, there would be some hymns of varying quality (typically trite, in my opinion), and then a speaker, and maybe a hymn at the end. I've heard this referred to colloquially as the "Hymn Sandwich".

Is this really what the Lord desires from us? Is this what we are taught to do? Is there any rubric that we should follow?

In addition to this, I have noticed that these services tend to be all about creating happiness in the congregation and making sure that people leave feeling better about themselves and/or determined to do better. Now, these are not bad things, but this also seems totally secular. You don't really need God for these things.

In light of this, I wanted to highlight a few quotes from the Lauds that I have been praying the past few days (I love praying some of the Liturgy of the Hours as a Lenten observance).

From Psalm 5:
"But I through the abundance of thy steadfast love
will enter thy house,
I will worship toward thy holy temple
in the fear of thee."

Psalm 51 (the great Psalm of David's contrition):
"Open my lips, Lord, and my mouth will proclaim your praise;
for you do not delight in sacrifices:
if I offered you a burnt offering, it would not please you.
The true sacrifice is a broken spirit:
a contrite and humble heart, O God, you will not refuse.
Be pleased, Lord, to look kindly on Zion,
so that the walls of Jerusalem can be rebuilt,
Then indeed you will accept the proper sacrifices, gifts and burnt offerings;
then indeed will bullocks be laid upon your altar."

Many will point to the first half of this psalm to show that see, what the Lord desires is only for us to purify ourselves. While yes, this is primary, note the second half. The Lord will accept our sacrifices once we rectify our lives. Do our services offer sacrifice to the Lord? And if so, what is that sacrifice?

Next, I found this quote from Jesus as especially interesting:
"If your virtue does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Note that Jesus mentions the virtue of the scribes and Pharisees. Isn't this interesting? Usually we are lead to believe that the Pharisees were all evil, as were the scribes. It seems instead what is happening is that they are being held to a higher standard because they are in power. Did they do evil? Yes of course, and Jesus calls them out on that. But we are called to be more virtuous than even they. It should make you think twice about whether we discard everything that is associated with them. Maybe we should focus on what exactly it was that Jesus was so upset with them about.

We have an altar? We eat from the altar? Why, what could this mean? I'll leave that for you to decide."
"Finally, there is this peculiar verse from the end of the letter to the Hebrews:
"We have an altar from which those who serve the tent[c] have no right to eat."


God bless and have a fruitful Lent everyone!
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The tent is the Holy of Holies in the desert tabernacle. the priesthood are the servants. The new alter is the cross with the final and only sacrifice nesessary. When we accepted Christ as the Son of God we were given the indwelling Holy Spirit; we are a "new creature". We partake of the Eucharist as a remembrance only. We cannot foresake our adoption by not participating in the bread and wine.Christ is our spiritual flesh and blood and we are continuously nourished by His presence in us. It does not mattter how you praise or worship as long as it is done to glorify God with a loving and sincere heart. The bible is the only authority on these matters.
 
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it's just me said:
What "frills"?
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Bwah Ha Ha!

Yea, I guess if you grew up with them they don't look like excess.

The robes, gilding, incense burners, statues of the saints, etc. None of that is liturgy. If you break the liturgy down it's pretty much the same across all the Christian denominations. There are some exceptions, especially among the non-denominational churches.
 
LowDown said:
Bwah Ha Ha!

Yea, I guess if you grew up with them they don't look like excess.

The robes, gilding, incense burners, statues of the saints, etc. None of that is liturgy. If you break the liturgy down it's pretty much the same across all the Christian denominations. There are some exceptions, especially among the non-denominational churches.
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I didn't grow up with them, I grew up Baptist. I was kind of surprised that the Episcopal church is still burning incense, and I am even more surprised to hear that they have statues of saints, all we have are icons. Of course, none of these things are "liturgy", of course, they are sacramentals.

And no, I don't agree that services are "pretty much the same", especially when you will go months in Baptist churches without even receiving communion.
 
phattonez said:
I bring this up for a few reasons. The first is that in the Protestant school that I went to, there seemed to be no rubric that was gone by. In other words, there would be some hymns of varying quality (typically trite, in my opinion), and then a speaker, and maybe a hymn at the end. I've heard this referred to colloquially as the "Hymn Sandwich".

Is this really what the Lord desires from us? Is this what we are taught to do? Is there any rubric that we should follow?

In addition to this, I have noticed that these services tend to be all about creating happiness in the congregation and making sure that people leave feeling better about themselves and/or determined to do better. Now, these are not bad things, but this also seems totally secular. You don't really need God for these things.....
Finally, there is this peculiar verse from the end of the letter to the Hebrews:
"We have an altar from which those who serve the tent[c] have no right to eat."

We have an altar? We eat from the altar? Why, what could this mean? I'll leave that for you to decide.

God bless and have a fruitful Lent everyone![/FONT][/COLOR]
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There are two general guidelines that show up many times in scripture. These verses are good examples:

And he answering said, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of all thy soul, and out of all thy strength, and out of all thy understanding, and thy neighbour as thyself.'

16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

If we can somehow manage to do these things we are worshiping properly.

I like the Psalm you posted. That was interesting.
 
it's just me said:
I didn't grow up with them, I grew up Baptist. I was kind of surprised that the Episcopal church is still burning incense, and I am even more surprised to hear that they have statues of saints, all we have are icons. Of course, none of these things are "liturgy", of course, they are sacramentals.

And no, I don't agree that services are "pretty much the same", especially when you will go months in Baptist churches without even receiving communion.
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Christ said "And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;"

It bothers me quite a bit that men have created so many churches. Christ created one. Right?
 
Cable said:
Christ said "And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;"

It bothers me quite a bit that men have created so many churches. Christ created one. Right?
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The One Church still exists, although for the most part it's invisible, you can't tell who it's members are, they are scattered hither and yon. But you will know them by their fruits.
 
it's just me said:
The One Church still exists, although for the most part it's invisible, you can't tell who it's members are, they are scattered hither and yon. But you will know them by their fruits.
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I agree with this IJM. It seems to me very much a foolishness to belong to a man made church (although I don't have a problem attending one regularly, but knowing it's status and keeping it in mind). Just follow Christ. No man made church saves.
 
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