Divine Intervention and Faith

Hey, thanks for the responses everyone.

A mentor/friend of mine died earlier this year of cancer. She took me under her wing about 10 years ago and gave me my first significant job. She was a devout Christian, attended church weekly, volunteered, and was an all-around top-shelf person. Never smoked or drank.

Seems to me that this would have been the type of person that should have received some kind of divine intervention, if God is handing them out.

For every anecdote of God assisting someone, there are dozen if not hundreds where God should assist someone but doesn't.

Not trying to break anyone's faith, but hopefully that sheds light on why some people don't believe.

Amadeus said:

Not trying to break anyone's faith, but hopefully that sheds light on why some people don't believe.

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I doubt that you CAN break anyone's faith. Faith is something that you arrive at on your own, and give up on your own, and isn't really subject to the anecdotal evidence of others. It's a personal journey, and can only be taken based on one's own experiences and predilections. I don't base my faith on the experiences of others. It has to be meaningful in my own life.

Amadeus said:

Hey, thanks for the responses everyone.

A mentor/friend of mine died earlier this year of cancer. She took me under her wing about 10 years ago and gave me my first significant job. She was a devout Christian, attended church weekly, volunteered, and was an all-around top-shelf person. Never smoked or drank.

Seems to me that this would have been the type of person that should have received some kind of divine intervention, if God is handing them out.

For every anecdote of God assisting someone, there are dozen if not hundreds where God should assist someone but doesn't.

Not trying to break anyone's faith, but hopefully that sheds light on why some people don't believe.

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It's terribly difficult to accept the possibility that there is a purpose beyond our understanding. But I do know that the rain falls on the just and unjust alike.

Amadeus said:

Hey, thanks for the responses everyone.

A mentor/friend of mine died earlier this year of cancer. She took me under her wing about 10 years ago and gave me my first significant job. She was a devout Christian, attended church weekly, volunteered, and was an all-around top-shelf person. Never smoked or drank.

Seems to me that this would have been the type of person that should have received some kind of divine intervention, if God is handing them out.

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Everyone dies. It's appointed (Hebrews 9:27).

And sometimes death is a blessing.

nota bene said:

And sometimes death is a blessing.

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Yes, especially when someone is in pain and God isn't there to help.

Amadeus said:

Hey, thanks for the responses everyone.

A mentor/friend of mine died earlier this year of cancer. She took me under her wing about 10 years ago and gave me my first significant job. She was a devout Christian, attended church weekly, volunteered, and was an all-around top-shelf person. Never smoked or drank.

Seems to me that this would have been the type of person that should have received some kind of divine intervention, if God is handing them out.

For every anecdote of God assisting someone, there are dozen if not hundreds where God should assist someone but doesn't.

Not trying to break anyone's faith, but hopefully that sheds light on why some people don't believe.

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Sorry for your loss, I lost my Mum 2 years ago, she was only 54. Cancer is a bitch. My mum was just the most beautiful, kind, generous, giving Soul and for her entire life she remained faithful to her commitment to God. Like the Apostles told us, she would always say that faith comes by hearing the word that is in your heart.

Serenity said:

Sorry for your loss, I lost my Mum 2 years ago, she was only 54. Cancer is a bitch. My mum was just the most beautiful, kind, generous, giving Soul and for her entire life she remained faithful to her commitment to God. Like the Apostles told us, she would always say that faith comes by hearing the word that is in your heart.

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Sorry for your loss, as well. Two years ago is very recent. I believe my mentor and friend was also 54.

Declan said:

You are wrong about people never being determined not to believe. People might do it as a form of rejection of something like parental authority, normative pressures, etc. Other might do it because of a tragedy that renders them no longer of faith. Your position discounts the possibility that anyone could ever lose their religion.

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The very phrase "determined not to believe" suggests that a person really does, but denies this aspect of themselves. That's incredibly rare. Likewise, very few people conclude that their religion is false from a tragedy. It happens, but it is a very small portion of the non-religious population. Either way, these people are not "determined not to believe". They no longer believe. It is not a determination, it is a conclusion.

And I would contend that anyone who decides not to adhere to the religion of their parents as a response to social pressures didn't really believe in the first place. Remember, we're talking about conclusions about reality. It would be the same as declaring that gravity doesn't exist because your parents say it does. That doesn't really happen. Instead, no amount of pressure from authority or family can convince a person to claim that gravity isn't real, and a person who abandons their parents anti-gravity stance likely never believed in the first place.

Either way, this is not at all the topic of the thread, nor is it the point I'm trying to make. Goshin described it best, calling the argument that one must choose to embrace faith before the fruits of that faith can be revealed to them "circular". If you don't get to know the things that will make you believe until you already believe... that's definitely circular. I would contend that an open-minded person (which most skeptical people are) would believe an experience with the divine if they were to have one. But if such an experience doesn't actually communicate divinity unless you want it to be, then it seems like the divinity is something internal, rather than external, and thus isn't particularly convincing. The obvious question is, "I'm open minded, so why aren't I having these experiences?" and if the only answer is for someone to tell me that I'm not really open minded... that's not a good argument. Skepticism is not the same as "determined not to believe".

Again, all I'm talking about is my reaction to this particular pro-faith argument. Why people become atheists isn't the issue at all. But I can guarantee you that virtually no one does it out of spite towards a god they actually believe in.

Paschendale said:

I think there's a significant different between open-mindedness and desire for a specific conclusion. That seems to be the difference between genuine inquisitiveness and "seeking god". If one doesn't know, and wants to know, the implication is that their faith isn't sincere enough and they won't find god. Only someone who is determined to do so, discounting the possibility of there not being a god to find, will do so. That's why it's framed as "determined not to believe". The decision is made before the inquiry. Being "determined not to believe" is, of course, something that no one ever does. But someone who isn't determined to believe and just wants to find out doesn't seem to have a prayer, so to speak.

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I have not said nor implied that one must be "determined to believe" in order to "find God". I have not said nor implied that one must "desire a specific conclusion". I have said that openness usually precedes knowledge. The implication of this argument is that one might need to be open to the idea of God before one can know God. People who find the idea of God stupid, childish or irrational are not, as far as I can tell, open to the idea of God.

Amadeus said:

Hey, thanks for the responses everyone.

A mentor/friend of mine died earlier this year of cancer. She took me under her wing about 10 years ago and gave me my first significant job. She was a devout Christian, attended church weekly, volunteered, and was an all-around top-shelf person. Never smoked or drank.

Seems to me that this would have been the type of person that should have received some kind of divine intervention, if God is handing them out.

For every anecdote of God assisting someone, there are dozen if not hundreds where God should assist someone but doesn't.

Not trying to break anyone's faith, but hopefully that sheds light on why some people don't believe.

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It's worth noting that things like this happen to believers as well. My father died of cancer, a former friend died of cancer and I've had cancer and I still believe in God. I understand why some people would take those experiences as proof that God doesn't exist. In fact, the former friend who died of cancer made me the angriest and made me question my belief the most - even more so than my own illness. We had been friends in high school, but had drifted apart in college. When I found out she died, I couldn't believe it - she was someone who would have absolutely used her life to bring good to the world - she would have really made a difference in huge ways. She also seemed like the perfect candidate for "divine intervention". But now she's dead - she'll never laugh or hug her mother or make smartass comments again. And, even as someone who believes in God, I can't muster up a credible explanation for her death and "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't do anything for me. I still believe in God, though. I understand why some people would leave such experiences without such belief, but at the same time, I don't think that experiencing such situations necessarily stops or prevents belief for all, or even most, cases. I think we usually mold our experiences to fit them within the framework of what we already think.

Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post

It is a testimony given by Goshin.....his own personal experience. Christians have their own stories to tell regarding their God experience.

lizzie said:

Thank God it isn't an experience exclusive to Christians only.

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No, of course the experience isn't exclusively to Christians otherwise there wouldn't have been a Saul of Tarsus to have become Paul, or of non-believers ending up believing, and converting. And there wouldn't be countless stories/testimonies being told how their conversions came about!


When Christians give their testimonies, they unequivocally refer to their GOD!
Not some "being," or a "God." Besides, Christians are instructed to give their testimonies.


Mark 5:19
19 And he did not permit him but said to him, “Go home to your friends and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.”


1 John 5:10
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.


John 8:14
14 Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.

lizzie said:

Thank God it isn't an experience exclusive to Christians only.

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Come to think of it, how can one say he's having a GOD-EXPERIENCE if he's not sure that he's having it with God?

tosca1 said:

Come to think of it, how can one say he's having a GOD-EXPERIENCE if he's not sure that he's having it with God?

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The same way he can claim anything at ALL about god. It is entirely faith-based. We may believe, but the proof is only within our minds. God is in the eye of the beholder.

lizzie said:

The same way he can claim anything at ALL about god. It is entirely faith-based. We may believe, but the proof is only within our minds. God is in the eye of the beholder.

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I'm not getting it.

If one doubts God exists, and refers to God as "a being," or a "force," or refers to Him in quotes, as in "God,".....how can he conclude he's having a God experience when he doubts the existence of that God - specifically, the Judeo-Christian God, since being a Christian, that's who Goshin was referring to.


FAITH, based on what exactly?

How can you say the proof of a Christian's testimony of his God-experience is only "in his mind?"
Perhaps, it's the non-believer who prefers, and insists to see it that way - regardless of the evidence(s)?

Amadeus said:

Yes, especially when someone is in pain and God isn't there to help.

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How do you know that He isn't?

ThePlayDrive said:

I have not said nor implied that one must be "determined to believe" in order to "find God". I have not said nor implied that one must "desire a specific conclusion". I have said that openness usually precedes knowledge. The implication of this argument is that one might need to be open to the idea of God before one can know God. People who find the idea of God stupid, childish or irrational are not, as far as I can tell, open to the idea of God.

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The difference is that you can find any other knowledge childish or irrational and still find it. You can loathe the very concept of friction and yet still learn the basics of physics. You can think the lower intestine to be an absolutely barbaric concept and still learn anatomy. You don't have to be open. You just have to go and learn. And the knowledge is there for you, and is completely irrefutable, regardless of how you feel about it. A personal experience with the divine, by contrast, only seems available to those who have already decided they believe in them. I would certainly like one. I would probably believe one if I had it. But I don't expect to, and apparently that disqualifies me.

So yes, despite your denial, the implication is always that you have to want to find god before you will. Which means that someone with no desire to do so won't. Not a desire not to, simply no preexisting need. No amount of genuine inquisitiveness seems to do the trick. Only already choosing to believe does. When you say "openness", it doesn't seem like an open mind is what you really mean. Which is why, as I've said, this comes across as a self-defeating proposition. If you have to believe in order to have the experience that will make you believe, then the experience isn't doing it. The person who wants to believe is. So, if you just want to know, rather than want to believe, then you can't experience the divine.

But let me tell you something about those of us who find the idea of god stupid, childish, or irrational. That's the conclusion we came to after being open for a while. We didn't start with it.

tosca1 said:

I'm not getting it.

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That doesn't surprise me. I don't expect you to understand my view, no matter how well I explain it. It is my perception and you are not priviledged to it, because it is not possible for you to see through my eyes, any more than I can see through yours.

tosca1 said:

If one doubts God exists, and refers to God as "a being," or a "force," or refers to Him in quotes, as in "God,".....how can he conclude he's having a God experience when he doubts the existence of that God - specifically, the Judeo-Christian God, since being a Christian, that's who Goshin was referring to.

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I don't know. I don't have that doubt, so I don't identify with that line of thought. You would be better served to ask one of the atheists or agnostics here. I just realize that it's entirely based on faith and personal anecdotal evidence, not provable to anyone but oneself.

tosca1 said:

How can you say the proof of a Christian's testimony of his God-experience is only "in his mind?"
Perhaps, it's the non-believer who prefers, and insists to see it that way - regardless of the evidence(s)?

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No, we all see it through our own lense of reality. Your experience is meaningful only to you, as mine is to me.

Paschendale said:

The difference is that you can find any other knowledge childish or irrational and still find it. You can loathe the very concept of friction and yet still learn the basics of physics. You can think the lower intestine to be an absolutely barbaric concept and still learn anatomy. You don't have to be open. You just have to go and learn. And the knowledge is there for you, and is completely irrefutable, regardless of how you feel about it.

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Sure, but if you are so opposed to the idea of friction or the notion of the lower intestine that you are not open to the idea of that both exist, then you won't open the book - you won't take the course - you may not even go to schools that teach their existence. And if you go to the school, take the course and read the book, you may still be so closed off to the possibility of friction and the lower intestine that you come up with whatever rationalization you can to deny what is in front of you.

So yes, despite your denial, the implication is always that you have to want to find god before you will.

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That is not an implication of my argument. My argument is that you have to be open - not that you have to want. Openness and wanting are separate concepts and the former does not imply the latter. For example, during an election, most of us are open to the possibility that "our guy" will lose, but we do not want him to lose.

Which means that someone with no desire to do so won't. Not a desire not to, simply no preexisting need. No amount of genuine inquisitiveness seems to do the trick. Only already choosing to believe does. When you say "openness", it doesn't seem like an open mind is what you really mean. Which is why, as I've said, this comes across as a self-defeating proposition. If you have to believe in order to have the experience that will make you believe, then the experience isn't doing it. The person who wants to believe is. So, if you just want to know, rather than want to believe, then you can't experience the divine.

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When I say openness, I mean an open mind. I hope that clears up the confusion.

But let me tell you something about those of us who find the idea of god stupid, childish, or irrational. That's the conclusion we came to after being open for a while. We didn't start with it.

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I don't doubt the sincerity of what you're saying.

Paschendale said:

The difference is that you can find any other knowledge childish or irrational and still find it. You can loathe the very concept of friction and yet still learn the basics of physics. You can think the lower intestine to be an absolutely barbaric concept and still learn anatomy. You don't have to be open. You just have to go and learn. And the knowledge is there for you, and is completely irrefutable, regardless of how you feel about it. A personal experience with the divine, by contrast, only seems available to those who have already decided they believe in them. I would certainly like one. I would probably believe one if I had it. But I don't expect to, and apparently that disqualifies me.

So yes, despite your denial, the implication is always that you have to want to find god before you will. Which means that someone with no desire to do so won't. Not a desire not to, simply no preexisting need. No amount of genuine inquisitiveness seems to do the trick. Only already choosing to believe does. When you say "openness", it doesn't seem like an open mind is what you really mean. Which is why, as I've said, this comes across as a self-defeating proposition. If you have to believe in order to have the experience that will make you believe, then the experience isn't doing it. The person who wants to believe is. So, if you just want to know, rather than want to believe, then you can't experience the divine.

But let me tell you something about those of us who find the idea of god stupid, childish, or irrational. That's the conclusion we came to after being open for a while. We didn't start with it.

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Pasch, I feel for you in that. It must be frustrating in conversing with believers who have their stories of experiencing God, to say "well I WAS once open to the idea, why didn't I get a divine contact/event/etc??"

My answer is "I'm not sure."

If I were Calvinist, I'd shrug and say "predestination", but I'm not Calvinist and don't believe in predestination in that sense. I believe in "whosoever will" and that all have a chance to recognize and accept God at some point in their life, somehow. If I were going to assume I'd assume it has already happened and somehow you didn't see it, but I hate to question someone's word when they've said otherwise.

I don't claim to know everything or have all the answers.


Since I don't know what else to say, I'm going to pray that God will reveal himself to you if He will.

Amadeus said:

Yes, especially when someone is in pain and God isn't there to help.

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You haven't really studied the Bible, have you? Sometimes there's legitimate reasons why God allows suffering and death.

It's been my understanding for quite some time that a great many liberals don't like the idea of the Biblical God because he comes with a moral code of conduct that crimps their spiritually-challenged, secular agenda. They don't want to admit they are sinners in need of repentance and salvation. They want to be their own gods. So they bash God and oftentimes whoever believes in Him. Then they wind up screwed at the Judgment. Not a good plan.

Goshin said:

Pasch, I feel for you in that. It must be frustrating in conversing with believers who have their stories of experiencing God, to say "well I WAS once open to the idea, why didn't I get a divine contact/event/etc??"

My answer is "I'm not sure."

If I were Calvinist, I'd shrug and say "predestination", but I'm not Calvinist and don't believe in predestination in that sense. I believe in "whosoever will" and that all have a chance to recognize and accept God at some point in their life, somehow. If I were going to assume I'd assume it has already happened and somehow you didn't see it, but I hate to question someone's word when they've said otherwise.

I don't claim to know everything or have all the answers.

Since I don't know what else to say, I'm going to pray that God will reveal himself to you if He will.

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I'm not sure either. Though, as a child, I had experiences that sound very similar to those described by believers and, at the time, attributed them to divine sources. This is because that's what my parents told me was going on and because they occurred while I was in synagogue. Since then, however, I've felt the exact same way (heightened emotions, a sense of connection with the world, a kind of tranquility) from other sources. So, it seems like those feelings just come from me, rather than from anything else. When my frame of reference was religious, I framed my experiences within it. Once my frame expanded, I no longer attributed my experiences to religious sources. It seems like the distinction is within us, rather than from an external source.

So, unless there really is a god who is refusing to provide the proof (if I experienced this and didn't recognize it, then the all knowing god who was communicating with me would know that I wouldn't and chose to communicate in a way that I wouldn't see) to some people (out of spite?), the only reasonable conclusion that I and many others can reach is that nobody really is experiencing any gods, and are simply misattributing common experiences because of their frame of reference (especially since people have been doing this for thousands of years and attributing these experiences to gods that none of us believe in and many that we don't even know about). I think this is really all I want to add to this thread, as I seem to have been pulled a bit off topic, but I just hope that my description of a non-believer's thought process to this particular religious sentiment makes sense, even to those who disagree with it.

Also there are WAY too many commas and parenthetical phrases in the above paragraph. >_<

Logicman said:

You haven't really studied the Bible, have you? Sometimes there's legitimate reasons why God allows suffering and death.

It's been my understanding for quite some time that a great many liberals don't like the idea of the Biblical God because he comes with a moral code of conduct that crimps their spiritually-challenged, secular agenda. They don't want to admit they are sinners in need of repentance and salvation. They want to be their own gods. So they bash God and oftentimes whoever believes in Him. Then they wind up screwed at the Judgment. Not a good plan.

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Whatever you were trying to sell me, you lost me as a customer.

Paschendale said:

the only reasonable conclusion that I and many others can reach is that nobody really is experiencing any gods, and are simply misattributing common experiences because of their frame of reference (especially since people have been doing this for thousands of years and attributing these experiences to gods that none of us believe in and many that we don't even know about).

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That makes perfectly sound sense, and you may be right, for all I know. That being said, my experience has led me to believe otherwise, and it's not that I've ever "heard" or "seen" God. It's just something which makes sense to me at this point in my life, and as a result of my personal experiences. If experience in the future directs me to a change in my thoughts on the matter, then I will deal with that at that time. Either way, I don't believe in a "hell" as is commonly envisioned by many people, and I don't think that anyone is sent anywhere upon death, but that we actually direct our own paths according to our needs for learning. To me, living is about evolving- not physically, as everything physical does, but mentally and spiritually, and I consider myself a student who is here to learn, so that I may continue to grow until I no longer need to be here. I pretty much view earth life as a reform school for wayward souls, and for those of us who require hard lessons for hard heads.

I don't expect it to be easy. I don't expect protection from pain. I figure I signed up for this, and I fully intend to fulfill my contractual obligation. And just so that I don't give a confusing signal, it probably helps to understand that I consider people as souls who just happen to have temporary bodies, rather than as bodies who may, or may not, have souls. When I look at someone, it's not their physical being that I consider, as much as what's on the inside, if that makes any sense. I see the spark that animates them, more clearly than the body that houses the spark. I realize it's not a common concept, so I hope it's not too awfully foreign sounding. I don't take things personally. All of this is temporary, and none of us are only what we sense with our five senses.

I believe that we are a part of something much grander, and that we all have our own value, and our own roles to fulfill, and no one is more important that the other, no matter how rich and powerful, nor how poor. We aren't the same, but we are equally important in the eyes of God, and you are no more important than I, and I am no more important than you, regardless of our qualities. You may be more intellectually gifted that I, but I have qualities that you can only aspire to. None of that matters. It's all just hubris and matters of the human ego. We are more than that.

Amadeus said:

Whatever you were trying to sell me, you lost me as a customer.

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What made you think I wanted you as a customer?