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Divine Intervention and Faith

It's good news to hear that your health has improved and i mean that sincerely.

You believe everything is ordered to accomplish his will and are ok with that. So many others are not. ""Why bad things will happen to even good people" in this life is probably the most major fundamental question that many Christians struggle with from time to time and many will lose their faith.

There is something that we need, at some level, in all experiences, I believe that at some level, a part of us understands the things we are here to learn, and that the higher part of ourselves knows what we are here for, and takes an objective stance, rather than the emotional trainwreck that our more earthly and physical impulses can handle. I haven't seen very many people lose their faith as a result of painful experiences. I lost my original method as a result of actively seeking something which made sense to me.
 
Thank you for sharing that.


My mother was diagnosed with Lupus in her 40s. A couple years later the docs determined it had gone "internal", and told her she probably had two years to live. During that time the family spent a lot of time in prayer for her, and the church called for everyone to pray for her on many occasions. For a while it seemed she was getting sicker.... then abruptly her Lupus vanished entirely, despite the fact that the doctors had no hope of a cure at that time.

She lived to be 81. :D

Wow, praise God.
 
I don't believe that god works *for*me. It isn't really personal to me, and I don't believe that I am special or favored, except in that I am open and willing to pay attention, but my life has been exceptional in several respects, that most people wouldn't even understand, if they didn't have a good bit of insight into matters concerning the non-mundane.
I can see "God" or whatever force it may be nudging someone onto a better path. Often it's subtle and barely noticeable, but the results are immense and benefits everyone with whom that person comes into contact.
 
Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?

I'd think that many things in the modern world could be seen as divinely inspired or otherwise coerced. It's a matter of perception really.
 
I'd think that many things in the modern world could be seen as divinely inspired or otherwise coerced. It's a matter of perception really.

Through "otherwise" you're suggesting that "divinely inspired" equates with coercion, and I can't agree. I also don't think that experience can be reduced to mere perception.
 
Through "otherwise" you're suggesting that "divinely inspired" equates with coercion, and I can't agree. I also don't think that experience can be reduced to mere perception.

Coercion was probably not the best of words, perhaps "guided" instead.
 
Thank you for the clarification.
 
Coercion was probably not the best of words, perhaps "guided" instead.


If anyone does use coercion or guidance, it's typically going to be a parent or other authority figure, and while that may place a child in the position of participating in religious or similar activities, it doesn't really force him/her to believe anything. Belief is something that one may gradually grow into, as a result of experience, but it's nothing that can really be forced- merely the outward acts associated with belief, such as going to church, praying, etc.
 
There are ways to experience God directly, but unless someone is genuinely open to that experience it isn't going to happen. It's not going to just happen by sitting in your living room with the lights off saying "Okay, god-being, if you really exist reveal yourself to me," and then sitting back skeptically with your arms crossed until you get bored.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass in saying this, I'm just saying that since by definition you don't "do faith", you're probably not going to experience the reality of God directly as this is something that happens by and through faith, as if faith was the flashlight in the otherwise darkened room.

Just because you have not experienced such an intervention doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It much more likely means either that you simply aren't open to allowing God to work in your life, or else you haven't recognized his influence when you have experienced it.

I don't doubt the sincerity of either of your faith, but to someone who doesn't share it, I hope you can see how much of a cop out this sounds like. It really does come across that, unless we convince ourselves that this is true, we'll never see it. The seeing should come before the convincing, shouldn't it?
 
I appreciate the response, but this is more Bible speak. It is a fancy of saying trust the scripture and have faith. :?

It is a testimony given by Goshin.....his own personal experience. Christians have their own stories to tell regarding their God experience.
 
It is a testimony given by Goshin.....his own personal experience. Christians have their own stories to tell regarding their God experience.

Thank God it isn't an experience exclusive to Christians only.
 
2 Nephi 26:13
He manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith.

Speaking of our time, Nephi stated:
2 Nephi 26:20
"they put down the power and miracles of God, and preach up unto themselves their own wisdom and their own learning"

...has the day of miracles ceased? Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved? Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain." (Moroni 7:35-37)

"O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him." (Mormon 9:27)


"But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe." (D&C 63:9)


In my own life, as unworthy as I have been, I can verify the scriptures are true that signs and miracles follow faith. I know God is no respecter of persons and loves all of us. Even when you think you are unlovable.
 
The Holy Spirit is everywhere. Even in liver.
 
I don't doubt the sincerity of either of your faith, but to someone who doesn't share it, I hope you can see how much of a cop out this sounds like. It really does come across that, unless we convince ourselves that this is true, we'll never see it. The seeing should come before the convincing, shouldn't it?



I can understand that it sounds like a circular argument: "You cannot experience that Blahness of Blah until you believe in the Blah!" To the skeptic, yes it sounds like nonsense I suppose.

There is no scientific or overt proof of God's existence. Yet if you talk to a million believers (and bear in mind, something like 80-90% of the people in the world are believers of some sort), you'll hear a million stories about why they believe.

There are also many stories of people who were skeptics until something happened that persuaded them otherwise. It might have been some improbable event in their life that seemed impossible absent divine intervention; or it may have been a direct experience of feeling contact with the Divine. I've heard both.

Die hard skeptics tend to explain such things away as coincidence; a momentary lapse of reason; an excess of imagination or emotional fervor. There is no way to prove or disprove this in a concrete fashion, but believers make a personal decision to believe that it was more, and to take it on faith.


Sort of like Einstein's relativity... you pays your money and you takes your frame of reference... :shrug:
 
I don't doubt the sincerity of either of your faith, but to someone who doesn't share it, I hope you can see how much of a cop out this sounds like. It really does come across that, unless we convince ourselves that this is true, we'll never see it. The seeing should come before the convincing, shouldn't it?

That is not how it has ever worked, and not how it ever will.

Matthew 16:1-4

  1. The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
  2. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
  3. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
  4. A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
 
I don't doubt the sincerity of either of your faith, but to someone who doesn't share it, I hope you can see how much of a cop out this sounds like. It really does come across that, unless we convince ourselves that this is true, we'll never see it. The seeing should come before the convincing, shouldn't it?

Maybe the point is that you aren't going to see anything if you choose to keep the blindfold on. There is nothing I or anybody else could ever say that would persuade someone who is determined not to believe.
 
Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?
Possibilities :

1. He does intervene just not in the same overt way He did in the Bible, Koran or other holy texts.
2. He does not intervene because He's not interested.
3. He doesn't intervene because He wants us to have free will.
4. He does intervene overtly but you don't notice it.
5. He doesn't intervene because he's busy.
 
I don't doubt the sincerity of either of your faith, but to someone who doesn't share it, I hope you can see how much of a cop out this sounds like. It really does come across that, unless we convince ourselves that this is true, we'll never see it. The seeing should come before the convincing, shouldn't it?
Openness usually precedes knowledge. One of the main reasons people reject truth is because they are unwilling to open themselves up to the possibility of that truth. For instance, there are people, as you know, who reject the truth that atheists can be trustworthy. Even in the face of consistent "good works" done by atheists, these people will still claim that no atheist can be trusted. They reject the truth because they are not open to it.
 
Possibilities :

1. He does intervene just not in the same overt way He did in the Bible, Koran or other holy texts.
2. He does not intervene because He's not interested.
3. He doesn't intervene because He wants us to have free will.
4. He does intervene overtly but you don't notice it.
5. He doesn't intervene because he's busy.

These observations are rational and like mine. guess i am calling myself rational too?

I suppose the best thing to do for evidence is to pray to Jesus? if he came to save us, he will remember us, not because he is all loving - and that is why there is a hell - not because he needs to, but feels better doing it. think of a homeless person that needs you change, won't you feel a temporary high by giving them some dough?

For evidence of Jesus, well, i will quickly recap some of my ideas, as, i believe all religions need to come together to access, well, i don't know yet. but, Jesus was born, because there is church built in his name. in those days, it was hard to con someone, because there were so many con artists! this means, that, if he was politically motivated, he would have gotten into politics and been subjugated while alive, yes? so, he cleverly spread his message by word of mouth and miracles, and built a following, that, supported the initial 'roots' of the church. without this or them, it wouldn't have happened, but, that was not good enough for some atheists, so let me try to refine it further, or draw more inspiration from rationale ?

Now, for the church to work, it needed a avatar. someone claiming to be the son of god would have been 'smited' by the Jews and Pagans alike, without evidence. all they had to do was one wrong thing, and they would have lost hope of someone perfect, whom he claimed to be. the way i figure, he must have put all the fires out between the people that followed him to eliminate the idea of him being a rabble rouser and getting into serious trouble with the authorities. i mean, some fool that goes around calling himself god is no threat, he is a mockery, yes? how are people psychologically different today than they were back then? is it genetic? hey ignored him, then used him as a scape goat for political reasons, yes?
 
Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?

My personal relationship with the very real Holy Spirit.

And from the Bible...

Israel is reborn as a nation again, just as was prophesied.

The Rebirth of Israel « The Righter Report

When you've studied the Bible, you will see God at work.
 
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Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?

Christian faith is really the only view that makes sense.

Also, there are still miracles today.
 
That is not how it has ever worked, and not how it ever will.

That's probably why nonbelievers are the fastest growing religious designation in the country.

Maybe the point is that you aren't going to see anything if you choose to keep the blindfold on. There is nothing I or anybody else could ever say that would persuade someone who is determined not to believe.

Openness usually precedes knowledge. One of the main reasons people reject truth is because they are unwilling to open themselves up to the possibility of that truth. For instance, there are people, as you know, who reject the truth that atheists can be trustworthy. Even in the face of consistent "good works" done by atheists, these people will still claim that no atheist can be trusted. They reject the truth because they are not open to it.

I think there's a significant different between open-mindedness and desire for a specific conclusion. That seems to be the difference between genuine inquisitiveness and "seeking god". If one doesn't know, and wants to know, the implication is that their faith isn't sincere enough and they won't find god. Only someone who is determined to do so, discounting the possibility of there not being a god to find, will do so. That's why it's framed as "determined not to believe". The decision is made before the inquiry. Being "determined not to believe" is, of course, something that no one ever does. But someone who isn't determined to believe and just wants to find out doesn't seem to have a prayer, so to speak.

Again, I'm not doubting the sincerity of anyone's faith. I'm just pointing out how this particular answer about faith is self-defeating.
 
That's probably why nonbelievers are the fastest growing religious designation in the country.

And for every person who checks that box, there will be a person in China or Africa who checks the other one.



I think there's a significant different between open-mindedness and desire for a specific conclusion. That seems to be the difference between genuine inquisitiveness and "seeking god". If one doesn't know, and wants to know, the implication is that their faith isn't sincere enough and they won't find god. Only someone who is determined to do so, discounting the possibility of there not being a god to find, will do so. That's why it's framed as "determined not to believe". The decision is made before the inquiry. Being "determined not to believe" is, of course, something that no one ever does. But someone who isn't determined to believe and just wants to find out doesn't seem to have a prayer, so to speak.

Again, I'm not doubting the sincerity of anyone's faith. I'm just pointing out how this particular answer about faith is self-defeating.

You are wrong about people never being determined not to believe. People might do it as a form of rejection of something like parental authority, normative pressures, etc. Other might do it because of a tragedy that renders them no longer of faith. Your position discounts the possibility that anyone could ever lose their religion.
 
Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?
I think often god is subtle and not so flashy
 
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