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When Jesus was born

When Jesus was born

  • Total voters
    18
ecofarm said:
[video=youtube;ymjuHYKh7d4]https://www.youtub:e.com/watch?v=ymjuHYKh7d4[/video]
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no ,l am still too young for you although l am ready for being your Maria magdalena :mrgreen:
 
Without any question what-so-ever - it was NOT December 25th.
 
Dragonfly said:
Without any question what-so-ever - it was NOT December 25th.
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I figure that there is about a 1 out of 365 chances that he was born on Dec 25th.
 
With all due respect for everybody's opinions, I don't see what difference the month or date makes.
 
Northern Light said:
Jesus follows the story of Osiris almost to the letter, and Osiris was born in the Spring.
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Jesus wasn't born in the spring.

As far as the stories of Jesus and Osiris being virtually identical, we find the following:

"The story of Osiris didn’t develop into its full context until the second century AD when Plutarch wrote the book “Concerning Isis and Osiris”.

Osiris, unlike Jesus, was born of an adulterous affair between two gods. While Osiris was in his mother’s womb, he fell in love with his sister, Isis. These two fetuses have intercourse and give birth to Horus. After Osiris is grown, he mistakes his sister, Nephthys, for his wife and has intercourse with her. Oddly enough, Nephthys is the wife of his brother, Lot. Lot becomes upset with Osiris because he had sexual relations with his wife/sister and Lot traps him in a sarcophagus and throws it into the Nile in an attempt to kill him. Isis becomes distraught and searches for Osiris and eventually finds his dead corpse in the river. She retrieves the corpse and takes it back home to Egypt; however she decides to have one last bit of sexual intercourse with it on the way home. Once she arrives home with the corpse, she tries to hide Osiris’ body from Lot but fails to do so. Once Lot finds Osiris’ body, he chops his body into 14 pieces and scatters the pieces throughout Egypt. After this, Isis collects all of these pieces from Egypt except his male reproductive organ. Following this collection, magical incantations are recited and Osiris is raised in the netherworld and assigned as king of the dead (Sharp, 2012)."

The Alleged Parallels between Jesus and Pagan Gods - Columbus Christianity | Examiner.com

The origins of Christianity are clearly found in the Old Testament, and in the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth.
 
Logicman said:
Jesus wasn't born in the spring.

As far as the stories of Jesus and Osiris being virtually identical, we find the following:

"The story of Osiris didn’t develop into its full context until the second century AD when Plutarch wrote the book “Concerning Isis and Osiris”.

Osiris, unlike Jesus, was born of an adulterous affair between two gods. While Osiris was in his mother’s womb, he fell in love with his sister, Isis. These two fetuses have intercourse and give birth to Horus. After Osiris is grown, he mistakes his sister, Nephthys, for his wife and has intercourse with her. Oddly enough, Nephthys is the wife of his brother, Lot. Lot becomes upset with Osiris because he had sexual relations with his wife/sister and Lot traps him in a sarcophagus and throws it into the Nile in an attempt to kill him. Isis becomes distraught and searches for Osiris and eventually finds his dead corpse in the river. She retrieves the corpse and takes it back home to Egypt; however she decides to have one last bit of sexual intercourse with it on the way home. Once she arrives home with the corpse, she tries to hide Osiris’ body from Lot but fails to do so. Once Lot finds Osiris’ body, he chops his body into 14 pieces and scatters the pieces throughout Egypt. After this, Isis collects all of these pieces from Egypt except his male reproductive organ. Following this collection, magical incantations are recited and Osiris is raised in the netherworld and assigned as king of the dead (Sharp, 2012)."

The Alleged Parallels between Jesus and Pagan Gods - Columbus Christianity | Examiner.com

The origins of Christianity are clearly found in the Old Testament, and in the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth.
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Your source is the Examiner, probably after doing a 5 second Google search, and is completely wrong. But anyway, no point in arguing with someone who has already decided. :shrug:
 
ecofarm said:
There are a few reasons, including the solstice was already a time of celebration and vacation (as it was time to put the animals in winter shelter and start using stored food).

To put it simply... in today's context... if your God was born on a Tuesday, would you celebrate his birthday then or on a Saturday.
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Christians didn't celebrate Jesus' birthday on Dec. 25th prior to Constantinople choosing Christianity. There's no logic behind it other than to compete with Paganism.

Even the tradition of the Yule Tree comes from Paganism. Christians clearly ripped them off.
 
Dragonfly said:
Without any question what-so-ever - it was NOT December 25th.
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The early power figures in the Christian church needed a way to "convince" the pagans to convert. It didn't really matter what the actual date was. It mattered that the Christians maintained support. Incorporating pagan rituals was just one of those methods used. It's easier to get people to agree with you, if you let them keep some of their own identity, than it is if you just demand that they give up their beliefs. Beliefs cannot be forced, and it is beneficial for an organization to have numbers, for there is strength in numbers, to a certain degree.
 
JUG said:
I can't give say for sure, and I don't want to give you false information, but I remember my theology professor telling us they carbon-dated the cloth that Jesus gave to Mary Magdolen.
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The cloth that Jesus gave to Mary Magdalen?

There are 13 references to the sister of Lazarus and former demoniac in the Gospels, and I can't find any that make any further reference to Magdalene beyond her being part of a group of women at various events and that she washed Jesus' feet.

Ah, which theology is this and where is this being taught? And where is said cloth now, in the mysterious catacombs of the Vatican perhaps, being protect by Opus Dei?
 
JUG said:
I can't give say for sure, and I don't want to give you false information, but I remember my theology professor telling us they carbon-dated the cloth that Jesus gave to Mary Magdolen.
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How would a piece of cloth given by an adult Jesus to someone give any indication of the season of his birth?
 
Northern Light said:
Your source is the Examiner, probably after doing a 5 second Google search, and is completely wrong.
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Not a chance.

Northern Light said:
But anyway, no point in arguing with someone who has already decided.
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Yeah? Well, show me your 'pre-Jesus' original source(s) for Osiris that show:

•Born of a virgin on the same date as Osiris;
•Stars appeared at their births;
•visited by Magi from the east;
•turned water into wine;
•healed the sick;
•cast out demons;
•performed miracles;
•transfigured before followers;
•rode donkeys into the city;
•betrayed for 30 pieces of silver;
•celebrated communal meal with bread and wine which represented the savior's flesh and blood;
•killed on a cross or tree;
•descended into hell;
•resurrected on third day;
•ascended into heaven;
•to forever sit beside Father God and become Divine Judge.

Where's the beef?

If you can't then you need to reexamine your own beliefs.
 
JUG said:
Well, the cloth has been found and it's in a museum. I can't say for sure if I believe exactly what it stands for, but I do believe that Jesus wiped his face with it.
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Care to give a source on that?
 
Northern Light said:
Jesus follows the story of Osiris almost to the letter, and Osiris was born in the Spring.

The Christians put his birth celebration at this time of year to compete with the Winter Solstice celebrations of the Pagans.

I don't know what I find more appalling about this fact: that they were so intensely trying to stamp out an ancient spiritual system, or that they were willing to alter the sacred story of their own God to fit their politics.
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I am not sure of that. The sources I have seen that claim that are more than a bit sketchy.
 
Northern Light said:
Christians didn't celebrate Jesus' birthday on Dec. 25th prior to Constantinople choosing Christianity. There's no logic behind it other than to compete with Paganism.

Even the tradition of the Yule Tree comes from Paganism. Christians clearly ripped them off.
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Jeremiah 10:2-6English Standard Version (ESV)

2 Thus says the Lord:

“Learn not the way of the nations,
nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens
because the nations are dismayed at them,
3 for the customs of the peoples are vanity.[a]
A tree from the forest is cut down
and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
5 Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field,
and they cannot speak;
they have to be carried,
for they cannot walk.
Do not be afraid of them,
for they cannot do evil,
neither is it in them to do good.”
 
Logicman said:
Not a chance.



Yeah? Well, show me your 'pre-Jesus' original source(s) for Osiris that show:

•Born of a virgin on the same date as Osiris;
•Stars appeared at their births;
•visited by Magi from the east;
•turned water into wine;
•healed the sick;
•cast out demons;
•performed miracles;
•transfigured before followers;
•rode donkeys into the city;
•betrayed for 30 pieces of silver;
•celebrated communal meal with bread and wine which represented the savior's flesh and blood;
•killed on a cross or tree;
•descended into hell;
•resurrected on third day;
•ascended into heaven;
•to forever sit beside Father God and become Divine Judge.

Where's the beef?

If you can't then you need to reexamine your own beliefs.
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No idea why the birthdate of Osiris is so important. But just to start, here are the virgin births and a couple of star notations also

Born of a virgin: Krishna: called both God and the Son of God, called Savior, one part of a Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father a carpenter. Both of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.
Romulus born of a vestal virgin sworn to celibacy
Dionysus, born of a virgin on December 25
Attis of Phrygia born of a virgin after she picked up an almond that had fallen from a tree which grew from the cut-off penis of the hermaphrodite Agdistis.

Horus Not born of a virgin but rather conceived from the amputated penis of his dead father, Osiris. From Wikipedia
Horus was born to the goddess Isis after she retrieved all the dismembered body parts of her murdered husband Osiris, except his penis which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by a catfish,[7][8] or sometimes by a crab, and according to Plutarch's account (see Osiris) used her magic powers to resurrect Osiris and fashion a gold phallus[9] to conceive her son (older Egyptian accounts have the penis of Osiris surviving).
Once Isis knew she was pregnant with Horus, she fled to the Nile Delta marshlands to hide from her brother Set who jealously killed Osiris and who she knew would want to kill their son.[10] There Isis bore a divine son, Horus.

7. New York Folklore Society (1973). "New York folklore quarterly" 29. Cornell University Press. p. 294.
8. Ian Shaw (2003). The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-815034-2.
9. Piotr O. Scholz (2001). Eunuchs and castrati: a cultural history. Markus Wiener Publishers. p. 32. ISBN 1-55876-201-9.
10. Roy G. Willis (1993). World mythology. Macmillan. p. 43. ISBN 0-8050-2701-7.
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Somerville said:
No idea why the birthdate of Osiris is so important. But just to start, here are the virgin births and a couple of star notations also

Born of a virgin: Krishna: called both God and the Son of God, called Savior, one part of a Trinity. Krishna’s adoptive human father a carpenter. Both of royal descent. Both were visited at birth by wise men and shepherds, guided by a star.
Romulus born of a vestal virgin sworn to celibacy
Dionysus, born of a virgin on December 25
Attis of Phrygia born of a virgin after she picked up an almond that had fallen from a tree which grew from the cut-off penis of the hermaphrodite Agdistis.

Horus Not born of a virgin but rather conceived from the amputated penis of his dead father, Osiris. From Wikipedia
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Sorry, those are not similar. For instance,

A virgin birth is never attributed to Krishna as his parents bore seven previous children. Critics claim Krishna was born to the virgin Maia but according to Hindu texts, he was the eighth son of Princess Devaki and her husband Vasudeva: "You have been born of the divine Devaki and Vasudeva for the protection of Brahma on earth." Mahabharata Bk 12, XLVIII

The others have problems also or are different.

Investigating the Similarities between Jesus and Pagan Figures

As scholars Nash, McKenzie, etc., have pointed out, the vast majority of so-called pagan myth similarities to Christ are not found until after his life.
 
Northern Light said:
Christians didn't celebrate Jesus' birthday on Dec. 25th prior to Constantinople choosing Christianity. There's no logic behind it other than to compete with Paganism.

Even the tradition of the Yule Tree comes from Paganism. Christians clearly ripped them off.
Click to expand...

It was a time of celebration and rest as a result of the agricultural cycle. It wasn't 'going after pagans' as much as it was celebrating at the same time as everyone else.

The evergreen is a symbol of everlasting life, probably for a number of ancient cultures.
 
Medusa said:
thanks for voting
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Other because I do not care. December 25 is the day many Christians chose to celebrate his birth and that is not going to change.
 
Logicman said:
Sorry, those are not similar. For instance,

A virgin birth is never attributed to Krishna as his parents bore seven previous children. Critics claim Krishna was born to the virgin Maia but according to Hindu texts, he was the eighth son of Princess Devaki and her husband Vasudeva: "You have been born of the divine Devaki and Vasudeva for the protection of Brahma on earth." Mahabharata Bk 12, XLVIII
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I was wrong about Krishna - see what happens when you read stuff on the internets

The others have problems also or are different.

Investigating the Similarities between Jesus and Pagan Figures

As scholars Nash, McKenzie, etc., have pointed out, the vast majority of so-called pagan myth similarities to Christ are not found until after his life.
Click to expand...

How are the other gods "different"?

The "vast majority" may or may not come from the period after the 1st Century but that rather obviously says that there were SOME virgin birth gods before the tale of Jesus was told
 
Somerville said:
How are the other gods "different"?
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Different than Jesus. From my studies over the years the God of the Bible matches up favorably with history. When Israel got out of line, they were judged (i.e. King Nebuchadnezzar sacks Jerusalem in 605 BC). It says Israel would be born again as a nation in the 'latter days' (Ezekiel chapters 37-39). Historical Biblical personalities have been verified (King David, and see list in link below).

Does Archaeology Confirm the Existence of Specific People Mentioned in the Bible? | United Church of God

And unlike other religions, the Bible has fulfilled prophecies (the signature of God) at a rate greater than chance (i.e. the Messianic prophecies).

Somerville said:
The "vast majority" may or may not come from the period after the 1st Century but that rather obviously says that there were SOME virgin birth gods before the tale of Jesus was told
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I'm not aware of any who, like Jesus, were actual historical figures. If they were written about, they're mythology. But I'll be glad to take a look at another one if you have one you'd like to put out here.
 
Somerville said:
I was wrong about Krishna - see what happens when you read stuff on the internets



How are the other gods "different"?

The "vast majority" may or may not come from the period after the 1st Century but that rather obviously says that there were SOME virgin birth gods before the tale of Jesus was told
Click to expand...

It has been revealed to the LDS that Adam and Eve were taught the gospel of Christ and why they were told to offer sacrifices of first born male lamb without blemish as it was symbolic of the Atonement of Christ. So the knowledge that the Savior would be born of a virgin could very well have been known aprox. four thousand years before His birth. We know from the Book of Mormon that Lehi was shown around 600 BC that Jesus would be born of a virgin. If there are religions that predate Jesus that teach something similar, it would just mean that this belief survived from the original, pure, authorized religion.
 
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