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Pope Francis: Doggie Heaven Is Real.....

DO Animals have Souls?

  • Total voters
    13
Paleocon said:
Animals do not have the capacity for abstract reason (they comprehend only particulars, not universals). Thus their souls are not rational.
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;)

Dogs' Intelligence On Par With Two-year-old Human, Canine Researcher Says.....

Although you wouldn't want one to balance your checkbook, dogs can count. They can also understand more than 150 words and intentionally deceive other dogs and people to get treats, according to psychologist and leading canine researcher Stanley Coren, PhD, of the University of British Columbia. He spoke Saturday on the topic "How Dogs Think" at the American Psychological Association's 117th Annual Convention.

According to several behavioral measures, Coren says dogs' mental abilities are close to a human child age 2 to 2.5 years. The intelligence of various types of dogs does differ and the dog's breed determines some of these differences, Coren says. "There are three types of dog intelligence: instinctive (what the dog is bred to do), adaptive (how well the dog learns from its environment to solve problems) and working and obedience (the equivalent of 'school learning')."

As for language, the average dog can learn 165 words, including signals, and the "super dogs" (those in the top 20 percent of dog intelligence) can learn 250 words, Coren says. "The upper limit of dogs' ability to learn language is partly based on a study of a border collie named Rico who showed knowledge of 200 spoken words and demonstrated 'fast-track learning,' which scientists believed to be found only in humans and language learning apes," Coren said. Dogs can also count up to four or five, said Coren. And they have a basic understanding of arithmetic and will notice errors in simple computations, such as 1+1=1 or 1+1=3......snip~

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090810025241.htm
 
lizzie said:
The idea of seeing a beloved person or animal again is no doubt very comforting. That being said, I suspect that a good part of that impulse is based on human emotion, and if, psychologically, and once we don't have the physical impulses and neurochemicals dictating so much of our thoughts and desires, that gives way to more clarity. I tend to suspect that what we find upon death very closely resembles our desires and emotional attachments. Iow, whoever and whatever I desire to see upon my death, will happen until I have adjusted to the change in reality, at which time those images fade into something more sober (in a good way). Many people who I have watched die, see and hear deceased family members when their death is imminent and pending. Sadly, none of them have ever mentioned seeing a beloved pet, but my closest physical tie with something/someone that I have lost, is with my old cat that died a few years ago. Every once in awhile, I hear him in my house, and get a glimpse out of the corner of my eye. With the people I have lost, that never happens.
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Perhaps MMC is correct in his belief that animals have a soul that is not evil. Only humans are given the choice between good and evil, animals do not have to make that choice. They are what they need to be to survive. Is an alligator evil? Animals don't start wars that could end their species like humans do, so that makes them smarter than we are, IMO. Has there ever been a time on earth when we weren't warlike - we sure don't seem to have advanced much in that regard. We have advanced so much in knowledge of things like health, technology and space travel, but we still keep looking for new ways to annihilate each other. What causes that flaw in some of us that has not been corrected in millions of years?
 
MMC said:
;)

Dogs' Intelligence On Par With Two-year-old Human, Canine Researcher Says.....

Although you wouldn't want one to balance your checkbook, dogs can count. They can also understand more than 150 words and intentionally deceive other dogs and people to get treats, according to psychologist and leading canine researcher Stanley Coren, PhD, of the University of British Columbia. He spoke Saturday on the topic "How Dogs Think" at the American Psychological Association's 117th Annual Convention.

According to several behavioral measures, Coren says dogs' mental abilities are close to a human child age 2 to 2.5 years. The intelligence of various types of dogs does differ and the dog's breed determines some of these differences, Coren says. "There are three types of dog intelligence: instinctive (what the dog is bred to do), adaptive (how well the dog learns from its environment to solve problems) and working and obedience (the equivalent of 'school learning')."

As for language, the average dog can learn 165 words, including signals, and the "super dogs" (those in the top 20 percent of dog intelligence) can learn 250 words, Coren says. "The upper limit of dogs' ability to learn language is partly based on a study of a border collie named Rico who showed knowledge of 200 spoken words and demonstrated 'fast-track learning,' which scientists believed to be found only in humans and language learning apes," Coren said. Dogs can also count up to four or five, said Coren. And they have a basic understanding of arithmetic and will notice errors in simple computations, such as 1+1=1 or 1+1=3......snip~

Dogs' Intelligence On Par With Two-year-old Human, Canine Researcher Says -- ScienceDaily
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Advanced understanding of particulars is irrelevant, what matters is understanding universals. And no, dogs can't count. Being trained to pick one slide over the other, is not counting.
 
Paleocon said:
Advanced understanding of particulars is irrelevant, what matters is understanding universals. And no, dogs can't count. Being trained to pick one slide over the other, is not counting.
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Now why would you say dogs can't count? Knowing Cohen has validation of dogs that can. They even had a special on it. Not only could the dogs count. They could pick out even while hidden, a specific item, and bring it back.


Four studies he examined looked how dogs solve spatial problems by modeling human or other dogs' behavior using a barrier type problem. Through observation, Coren said, dogs can learn the location of valued items (treats), better routes in the environment (the fastest way to a favorite chair), how to operate mechanisms (such as latches and simple machines) and the meaning of words and symbolic concepts (sometimes by simply listening to people speak and watching their actions).

During play, dogs are capable of deliberately trying to deceive other dogs and people in order to get rewards, said Coren. "And they are nearly as successful in deceiving humans as humans are in deceiving dogs."......snip~
 
1750Texan said:
"God loves all His creation and has made plans for all His children and the lesser creatures to enjoy His eternal Kingdom."

Psalm 145:-9-10,13,15-21
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I think that pretty much answers the question. I hope I die with pockets full of dog treats.
 
sangha said:
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That an animal can show preference for larger or smaller amounts of something, does not mean that it understands the concept of numerical less. I'm pretty sure wild hunting animals for instance, would show a preference for attacking larger groups of prey.
 
MMC said:
Now why would you say dogs can't count? Knowing Cohen has validation of dogs that can. They even had a special on it. Not only could the dogs count. They could pick out even while hidden, a specific item, and bring it back.


Four studies he examined looked how dogs solve spatial problems by modeling human or other dogs' behavior using a barrier type problem. Through observation, Coren said, dogs can learn the location of valued items (treats), better routes in the environment (the fastest way to a favorite chair), how to operate mechanisms (such as latches and simple machines) and the meaning of words and symbolic concepts (sometimes by simply listening to people speak and watching their actions).

During play, dogs are capable of deliberately trying to deceive other dogs and people in order to get rewards, said Coren. "And they are nearly as successful in deceiving humans as humans are in deceiving dogs."......snip~
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Finding a way through a maze, or the like, doesn't mean one can do math.
 
1750Texan said:
"God loves all His creation and has made plans for all His children and the lesser creatures to enjoy His eternal Kingdom."

Psalm 145:-9-10,13,15-21


bigger%20version%20jesus%20lion%20kids%20pictur0193.jpg
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Here is another from the Holy Book.


It says in Ecclesiastes 3: 19-21

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both; As one dies, so does the other. All have the same breath; Humans have no advantage over animals; Everything is Meaningless. All go to the same place, All.



Another.


Hosea 2: 18

In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beast of the field and the birds of the air and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land. So all may lie down in safety.
 
nota bene said:
I still don't get your point. Yes, I read the transcript of the day's audience. How does that negate a comment that the Italian press says the Pope made to a little boy (which extemporaneous comment is not part of the transcript)?
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The fact that there was no four year old talking to Pope Francis that day. (The picture which has been circulating is of some sunny day, which 11/26/14 was not in Rome)
 
Paleocon said:
The fact that there was no four year old talking to Pope Francis that day. (The picture which has been circulating is of some sunny day, which 11/26/14 was not in Rome)
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Pope Francis suggested recently that even animals have a place in heaven, while trying to soothe a young boy during a public appearance at the Vatican's St. Peter's Square.

"Paradise is open to all of God’s creatures," he told the boy whose dog died recently.

“One day, we will see our animals again in the eternity of Christ,” said the leader of the Catholic Church, according to Italian news sources.....snip~




Pope Francis told a distraught boy whose dog died that 'paradise is open to all of God's creatures.' (Stefano Rellandini/Reuters)

Pope Francis tells boy whose dog had died that heaven is open to all - World - CBC News
 
Paleocon said:
That an animal can show preference for larger or smaller amounts of something, does not mean that it understands the concept of numerical less. I'm pretty sure wild hunting animals for instance, would show a preference for attacking larger groups of prey.
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Yes, a preference for larger groups does not show an awareness of "larger". The "more" they show a preference for is a "non-quantitative" version of "more" because "more" does not have to have something to do with quantity

Besides "larger" and "quantity" are not a "universal"
 
I think they got the abstract down.....thoroughly. ;)

 
MMC said:
Now why would you say dogs can't count? Knowing Cohen has validation of dogs that can. They even had a special on it. Not only could the dogs count. They could pick out even while hidden, a specific item, and bring it back.


Four studies he examined looked how dogs solve spatial problems by modeling human or other dogs' behavior using a barrier type problem. Through observation, Coren said, dogs can learn the location of valued items (treats), better routes in the environment (the fastest way to a favorite chair), how to operate mechanisms (such as latches and simple machines) and the meaning of words and symbolic concepts (sometimes by simply listening to people speak and watching their actions).

During play, dogs are capable of deliberately trying to deceive other dogs and people in order to get rewards, said Coren. "And they are nearly as successful in deceiving humans as humans are in deceiving dogs."......snip~
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Dogs absolutely lie. And a lie is a complex thought process involving choice and consequences.
 
What if...? said:
Dogs absolutely lie. And a lie is a complex thought process involving choice and consequences.
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Mornin' WI. :2wave: Here was some more on it. This time from live science. Not just lie.....but know they are getting away with what they are not suppose to be doing too.



The canine IQ test results are in: Even the average dog has the mental abilities of a 2-year-old child. The finding is based on a language development test, revealing average dogs can learn 165 words (similar to a 2-year-old child), including signals and gestures, and dogs in the top 20 percent in intelligence can learn 250 words.


Better at math and socializing

While dogs ranked with the 2-year-olds in language, they would trump a 3- or 4-year-old in basic arithmetic, Coren found. In terms of social smarts, our drooling furballs fare even better.

"The social life of dogs is much more complex, much more like human teenagers at that stage, interested in who is moving up in the pack and who is sleeping with who and that sort of thing," Coren told LiveScience

While a smart dog will figure out everything you want it to know, your super pet will also learn everything it can get away with, Coren warns. ......snip~

Dogs as Smart as 2-year-old Kids
 
MMC said:
That's not what fast tracking is. Not only can they count, its like he stated they can accumulate words they know and still learn others.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6479QAJuz8
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Those are all particulars.

MMC said:
Pope Francis suggested recently that even animals have a place in heaven, while trying to soothe a young boy during a public appearance at the Vatican's St. Peter's Square.

"Paradise is open to all of God’s creatures," he told the boy whose dog died recently.

“One day, we will see our animals again in the eternity of Christ,” said the leader of the Catholic Church, according to Italian news sources.....snip~




Pope Francis told a distraught boy whose dog died that 'paradise is open to all of God's creatures.' (Stefano Rellandini/Reuters)

Pope Francis tells boy whose dog had died that heaven is open to all - World - CBC News
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Do you not understand that that never happened?

sangha said:
Actually, finding the shortest route (amongst several) is a complicated mathematical problem
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It does not require abstract mathematical understanding.
 
Paleocon said:
Those are all particulars.



Do you not understand that that never happened?



It does not require abstract mathematical understanding.
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Not just particulars, but showing emotion.


Basic emotions

Other studies Coren notes have found that dogs show spatial problem-solving skills. For instance, they can locate valued items, such as treats, find better routes in the environment, such as the fastest way to a favorite chair, and figure out how to operate latches and simple machines. Like human toddlers, dogs also show some basic emotions, such as happiness, anger and disgust. But more complex emotions, such as guilt, are not in a dog's toolbox. (What humans once thought was guilt was found to be doggy fear, Coren noted.)

And while dogs know whether they're being treated fairly, they don't grasp the concept of equity. Coren recalls a study in which dogs get a treat for "giving a paw." When one dog gets a treat and the other doesn't, the unrewarded dog stops performing the trick and avoids making eye contact with the trainer. But if one dog, say, gets rewarded with a juicy steak while the other snags a measly piece of bread, on average the dogs don't care about the inequality of the treats......snip~
 
MMC said:
Not just particulars, but showing emotion.


Basic emotions

Other studies Coren notes have found that dogs show spatial problem-solving skills. For instance, they can locate valued items, such as treats, find better routes in the environment, such as the fastest way to a favorite chair, and figure out how to operate latches and simple machines. Like human toddlers, dogs also show some basic emotions, such as happiness, anger and disgust. But more complex emotions, such as guilt, are not in a dog's toolbox. (What humans once thought was guilt was found to be doggy fear, Coren noted.)

And while dogs know whether they're being treated fairly, they don't grasp the concept of equity. Coren recalls a study in which dogs get a treat for "giving a paw." When one dog gets a treat and the other doesn't, the unrewarded dog stops performing the trick and avoids making eye contact with the trainer. But if one dog, say, gets rewarded with a juicy steak while the other snags a measly piece of bread, on average the dogs don't care about the inequality of the treats......snip~
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I agree. And emotions are not reason.
 
MMC said:
Wouldn't spatial problem solving include reasoning?
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Finding a way through a maze does not require abstract reasoning.
 
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