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Faith and Works

faithful_servant said:
Sorry, but that's completely un-Biblical and makes the Cross a waste. It is ONLY through the shed blood of Christ that we are made clean, nothing else can do this, no effort on our part and nothing more on God's part. The Cross was a COMPLETE work, not a partial one.
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Could you elaborate on that? That's taken directly from 1 Corinthians 3, so we have to reconcile it.
 
faithful_servant said:
The Cross was a COMPLETE work, not a partial one.
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Colossians 1:24: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church"

This is redemptive suffering.
 
phattonez said:
It seems to me that much of the confusion about salvation is muddled by a misunderstanding of the words of St. Paul. We can see in the Bible that whenever St. Paul is talking about how salvation is by faith and that works cannot save, what he is referring to is not the moral law, but rather the law of Moses. One verse in particular makes this totally clear:
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Paul is responsible for a lot of Biblical confusion in my opinion. I wonder why people take his word over that of Jesus and then Apostles who walked with him.

"Faith without works is dead" is the phrase Jesus brother uses in his letter from home to the 12 tribes of Israel. That is clear that faith takes precedence. And if your heart is filled with faith, you will be led to works that God wants of you.

Paul is an authoritarian who saw everything in black and white, through the lens of the practices and politics of the Roman Empire of which he was a citizen. If you read Jesus, he makes it clear that works alone do not buy you anything.
 
phattonez said:
No, and so once again I stress that nowhere have I doubted the necessity of faith. I have merely made the point that:
1. Faith alone does not cleanse us from sin, as indicated by the fact that we can believe and still sin.
2. Only those that are perfect can enter Heaven.
3. Hence we must be purified from our sins to enter Heaven. Faith alone is not enough.

If faith alone is enough, then how are we perfected? Do you deny that those with faith can still give into their passions and sin?
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Faith doesn't cleanse us from our sins, only the sacrifice of Christ does. His shed blood is the ONLY thing that can cleanse us, nothing of us can do it, even our faith.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Paul is responsible for a lot of Biblical confusion in my opinion. I wonder why people take his word over that of Jesus and then Apostles who walked with him.

"Faith without works is dead" is the phrase Jesus brother uses in his letter from home to the 12 tribes of Israel. That is clear that faith takes precedence. And if your heart is filled with faith, you will be led to works that God wants of you.

Paul is an authoritarian who saw everything in black and white, through the lens of the practices and politics of the Roman Empire of which he was a citizen. If you read Jesus, he makes it clear that works alone do not buy you anything.
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Misinterpretation of Paul is the problem, not Paul himself.

2 Peter 3: "So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this[a] as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability."
 
faithful_servant said:
Faith doesn't cleanse us from our sins, only the sacrifice of Christ does. His shed blood is the ONLY thing that can cleanse us, nothing of us can do it, even our faith.
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Of course, so again how do we reconcile apparently contradictory statements?
1. Faith alone is necessary for salvation.
2. You must be perfect to enter Heaven.

Faith alone does not make us perfect, as clearly the demons are not perfect. So then, how do we gain perfection? We have to rid ourselves from sin and all attachment to them, and that must happen here through good works (virtue, good habits, must trump vice, bad habits) or they will be purged in Purgatory. Faith alone is not enough. If we do not cooperate with the grace of God, how can we expect anything but damnation?
 
phattonez said:
Colossians 1:24: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church"

This is redemptive suffering.
Click to expand...

More from Colossians:
1:13-14 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Christ brings the forgiveness of sin, not our faith.


1:19-23 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
His blood, His sacrifice.

2:11-15 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Again, THE CROSS!

2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

It's all about the Cross and not about us. Suffering can never accomplish the work of salvation, only Christ can.
 
faithful_servant said:
More from Colossians:
1:13-14 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Christ brings the forgiveness of sin, not our faith.


1:19-23 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
His blood, His sacrifice.

2:11-15 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Again, THE CROSS!

2:23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

It's all about the Cross and not about us. Suffering can never accomplish the work of salvation, only Christ can.
Click to expand...


Again, why do you keep twisting what I'm saying? In no way am I denying the necessity of the sacrifice of Christ. All that I am saying is that faith alone is insufficient if we do not cooperate with the grace of God and amend our lives. Remember the words of Jesus:
"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny." - Matthew 5
 
phattonez said:
Again, why do you keep twisting what I'm saying? In no way am I denying the necessity of the sacrifice of Christ. All that I am saying is that faith alone is insufficient if we do not cooperate with the grace of God and amend our lives. Remember the words of Jesus:
"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny." - Matthew 5
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You are saved through faith by grace not of works least any man should boast.

Works are a result of faith. A true believe will be changed and will be seen through their actions. That doesn't mean that someone who isn't saved in the last minute of their live won't be saved. while it could mean they get less reward and weep at what they could have done doesn't mean they can't or won't be saved.

1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

as for the verses you were quoting if you remember in the book of revelation there is the Judgement Seat of Christ where all those that were saved
are judged on their deeds.

There works will be judged by fire and if they were done for the Glory of God and Christ they will be rewarded. If they were done for their own glory they will burn.
Many people will weep and cry as the things they thought they did good will burn. Yet he will wipe away all tears and gladden all hearts.

to those that remain faithful and conquer will be given a stone with a new name that is only know between them and God and Christ.
To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

The last is the Great White thrown judgment where those that are not written in the Book of life are permanently cast out of Heaven. This is where Christ blood will cover the sin.
 
phattonez said:
Once saved always saved is even more ridiculous. If once saved always saved was true, then what is the entire letter to the Galatians about?
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Seems to me Jesus says " I lose not one which the father gives me" or something close to that. Saving faith is just that, saving faith. You are only born once.. And you are only born of the spirit once also.
 
phattonez said:
Again, why do you keep twisting what I'm saying? In no way am I denying the necessity of the sacrifice of Christ. All that I am saying is that faith alone is insufficient if we do not cooperate with the grace of God and amend our lives. Remember the words of Jesus:
"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny." - Matthew 5
Click to expand...

What you are denying is the completeness of Christ's sacrifice. You want to add additional requirements for us to be righteous in God's eyes and the Bible clearly warns against that. It is ONLY the work of the Cross that cleans us, nothing else. All that is asked for past that is essentially a list of what pleases God and if we truly love Him, then we will do those things. They aren't additional requirements for salvation, they are simply the proof that we have entered into the New Covenant and it has been written on our hearts. They are not requirements for that Covenant, but simply evidence that we are party to it.
 
Gringo allstar said:
Seems to me Jesus says " I lose not one which the father gives me" or something close to that. Saving faith is just that, saving faith. You are only born once.. And you are only born of the spirit once also.
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So God is willing to supplant our free will?? That will never happen my friend. We ALWAYS have the choice to do whatever we want to, we may pay price at times for poor choices, but the choice is always ours. It's why the Tree was in the Garden, it's why we have to take that one step of accepting Christ as Lord. We can reject Him, but He will never reject us.
 
Gringo allstar said:
Seems to me Jesus says " I lose not one which the father gives me" or something close to that. Saving faith is just that, saving faith. You are only born once.. And you are only born of the spirit once also.
Click to expand...

John 14:23: "Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.""
 
faithful_servant said:
What you are denying is the completeness of Christ's sacrifice. You want to add additional requirements for us to be righteous in God's eyes and the Bible clearly warns against that. It is ONLY the work of the Cross that cleans us, nothing else. All that is asked for past that is essentially a list of what pleases God and if we truly love Him, then we will do those things. They aren't additional requirements for salvation, they are simply the proof that we have entered into the New Covenant and it has been written on our hearts. They are not requirements for that Covenant, but simply evidence that we are party to it.
Click to expand...

But if we don't do them, and yet fully believe in Christ and His sacrifice, then we are damned, no? So how is faith alone sufficient?
 
ludin said:
You are saved through faith by grace not of works least any man should boast.

Works are a result of faith. A true believe will be changed and will be seen through their actions. That doesn't mean that someone who isn't saved in the last minute of their live won't be saved. while it could mean they get less reward and weep at what they could have done doesn't mean they can't or won't be saved.

1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

as for the verses you were quoting if you remember in the book of revelation there is the Judgement Seat of Christ where all those that were saved
are judged on their deeds.
Click to expand...

And Revelation says that only those who are pure will enter Heaven.

There works will be judged by fire and if they were done for the Glory of God and Christ they will be rewarded. If they were done for their own glory they will burn.
Many people will weep and cry as the things they thought they did good will burn. Yet he will wipe away all tears and gladden all hearts.

to those that remain faithful and conquer will be given a stone with a new name that is only know between them and God and Christ.
To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

The last is the Great White thrown judgment where those that are not written in the Book of life are permanently cast out of Heaven. This is where Christ blood will cover the sin.
Click to expand...

Do you see this contradiction?
1 Corinthians 3: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Revelation 21: "he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”"

If there is no pain in Heaven, and yet our ill works must be burned, and we will suffer loss for it. This is how we achieve purity, and those who are saved will see some of their works perish. So tell me, if our ill works must be purged, how is faith alone sufficient?
 
phattonez said:
And Revelation says that only those who are pure will enter Heaven.
Click to expand...

1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You obviously didn't read. you are already pure.


Do you see this contradiction?
1 Corinthians 3: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Revelation 21: "he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”"

If there is no pain in Heaven, and yet our ill works must be burned, and we will suffer loss for it. This is how we achieve purity, and those who are saved will see some of their works perish. So tell me, if our ill works must be purged, how is faith alone sufficient?
Click to expand...

that doesn't contradict anything I said. no you achieve purity through the death of Christ not what you do. What you do is evident of Christ in you.
read 1John as I have already posted.

Faith determines where you spent eternity works determines the reward when you get there. is the best way I can put it.
yes you will suffer loss as things you thought you did for good will burn while others might.

People will see that that they could have lead a better life witnessed and reflected the love of Christ just a bit more.

it is the blood of Christ that saves and redeems what you do is a reflection of that.
 
faithful_servant said:
So God is willing to supplant our free will?? That will never happen my friend. We ALWAYS have the choice to do whatever we want to, we may pay price at times for poor choices, but the choice is always ours. It's why the Tree was in the Garden, it's why we have to take that one step of accepting Christ as Lord. We can reject Him, but He will never reject us.
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You are dead in your sin ( spiritual ) until you are regenerated. Man in his natural state cannot choose the things of God.
 
phattonez said:
But if we don't do them, and yet fully believe in Christ and His sacrifice, then we are damned, no? So how is faith alone sufficient?
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Our works CANNOT save us or disqualify us. They are evidence of our relationship and nothing more. To add requirements to Christ's sacrifice is completely un-Biblical. Remember Peter's words to the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15:10-11)?
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
You would place a yoke on the necks of believers that cannot save and should only be taken up as an act of worship.
 
faithful_servant said:
Our works CANNOT save us or disqualify us. They are evidence of our relationship and nothing more. To add requirements to Christ's sacrifice is completely un-Biblical. Remember Peter's words to the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15:10-11)?
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
You would place a yoke on the necks of believers that cannot save and should only be taken up as an act of worship.
Click to expand...

Like most who believe in sola fide, you are here, as in most places, conflating the Mosaic Law which St. Peter was talking about here, and the moral law. St. Peter also said the following: "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”"

Why would he bother to write that if only faith is required?
 
ludin said:
1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You obviously didn't read. you are already pure.
Click to expand...

Jump to conclusions much? Let's not make insulting claims such as "you obviously didn't read" when I at least am attempting to have a simple conversation. Remember that St. Peter calls us to defend our faith with gentleness and reverence.

As for the verse from the letter of St. John, I see no mention of a past tense, implying that we are already saved for our faith. In fact, it almost is an implied future tense. Look at what St. John says in the very next verse: "If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." Interesting, so we still are sinners, even with faith, and sin cannot enter Heaven? How then are we cleansed? Through good works and righteousness, and if necessary Purgatory. The blood of Christ is our redemption, yes, but that does not mean that no work is required of us. Far from it!


that doesn't contradict anything I said. no you achieve purity through the death of Christ not what you do. What you do is evident of Christ in you.
read 1John as I have already posted.

Faith determines where you spent eternity works determines the reward when you get there. is the best way I can put it.
yes you will suffer loss as things you thought you did for good will burn while others might.

People will see that that they could have lead a better life witnessed and reflected the love of Christ just a bit more.

it is the blood of Christ that saves and redeems what you do is a reflection of that.
Click to expand...

Again, you cannot suffer loss in Heaven. There is no pain in Heaven.
 
phattonez said:
Jump to conclusions much? Let's not make insulting claims such as "you obviously didn't read" when I at least am attempting to have a simple conversation. Remember that St. Peter calls us to defend our faith with gentleness and reverence.
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Well when I post something and you completely ignore it then I have to assume that you didn't read it.

As for the verse from the letter of St. John, I see no mention of a past tense, implying that we are already saved for our faith. In fact, it almost is an implied future tense. Look at what St. John says in the very next verse: "If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." Interesting, so we still are sinners, even with faith, and sin cannot enter Heaven? How then are we cleansed? Through good works and righteousness, and if necessary Purgatory. The blood of Christ is our redemption, yes, but that does not mean that no work is required of us. Far from it!
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No one is saying they haven't sinned. you are twisting it around into something else. The bible says we are cleansed. While we are sinners our faith in Christ and his death on the cross covers that sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

you can't work your way into heaven. no matter how good you think you do it does not meet Gods standard. the only way to heaven is through the blood of Jesus Christ.
the works you do determine the reward (or if going to hell) the punishment you receive.

you suffer loss as the thing you thought God would approve of aren't and your works are burned as chaff.
 
phattonez said:
Like most who believe in sola fide, you are here, as in most places, conflating the Mosaic Law which St. Peter was talking about here, and the moral law. St. Peter also said the following: "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”"

Why would he bother to write that if only faith is required?
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Because those things are EVIDENCE of your relationship, not a requirement of it. What you are saying is that Christ's death on the cross wasn't enough for us to be saved and that's a "lie from the pit of hell". If His sacrifice wasn't enough, then we are ALL damned. It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be holy enough, clean enough or righteous enough to qualify for heaven. The ONLY thing qualifies us is the sacrifice of Christ and us accepting that gift. THAT'S IT!! NOTHING beyond that. All works are simply evidence that we have a relationship with God and that we are willing to do those things that please Him and avoid those that displease Him. There is NO work that we can to do earn Heaven and to add legal requirements to God's grace is to want to enforce the curse that was broken that day. You are following in the footsteps of the Pharisee's - demanding actions, instead of worship. The pursuit of Holiness, righteousness and the works of "helping widows and orphans" and "making disciples" are acts of worship, not attempts to earn God's love.
 
faithful_servant said:
Because those things are EVIDENCE of your relationship, not a requirement of it. What you are saying is that Christ's death on the cross wasn't enough for us to be saved and that's a "lie from the pit of hell". If His sacrifice wasn't enough, then we are ALL damned. It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be holy enough, clean enough or righteous enough to qualify for heaven. The ONLY thing qualifies us is the sacrifice of Christ and us accepting that gift. THAT'S IT!! NOTHING beyond that. All works are simply evidence that we have a relationship with God and that we are willing to do those things that please Him and avoid those that displease Him. There is NO work that we can to do earn Heaven and to add legal requirements to God's grace is to want to enforce the curse that was broken that day. You are following in the footsteps of the Pharisee's - demanding actions, instead of worship. The pursuit of Holiness, righteousness and the works of "helping widows and orphans" and "making disciples" are acts of worship, not attempts to earn God's love.
Click to expand...


This is Judgement time scenario--Matt 7:21-23-- a worker of iniquity= a practicer of sin--Paul taught--Hebrews 10:26--means Jesus sacrifice doesn't count for those who practice sin.
At 1John 3--we find this statement---It is --IMPOSSIBLE-- for a son of God to practice even--1 -- sin.
A son of God has done this-- Ephesians 4:22-24-- old personality = a worker of iniquity-- the new personality = a worker of righteousness. To the best of ones ability--With ones whole--Heart,soul, mind, strength.
There are lists a follower of Jesus would never do-- 1Cor 6:9-11--Galations 5:19-21--most do these things, there are others as well--but those keep one from entering Gods kingdom.
 
ludin said:
Well when I post something and you completely ignore it then I have to assume that you didn't read it.



No one is saying they haven't sinned. you are twisting it around into something else. The bible says we are cleansed. While we are sinners our faith in Christ and his death on the cross covers that sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

you can't work your way into heaven. no matter how good you think you do it does not meet Gods standard. the only way to heaven is through the blood of Jesus Christ.
the works you do determine the reward (or if going to hell) the punishment you receive.

you suffer loss as the thing you thought God would approve of aren't and your works are burned as chaff.
Click to expand...

Again, in no way am I denying the efficacy of the sacrifice of Christ. That is necessary, otherwise all of our works are worthless. However, the Bible is clear that we need to be perfect to enter Heaven. Why do so many epistle writers talk about the necessity to live righteously if we are already cleansed?
 
faithful_servant said:
Because those things are EVIDENCE of your relationship, not a requirement of it. What you are saying is that Christ's death on the cross wasn't enough for us to be saved and that's a "lie from the pit of hell". If His sacrifice wasn't enough, then we are ALL damned. It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be holy enough, clean enough or righteous enough to qualify for heaven. The ONLY thing qualifies us is the sacrifice of Christ and us accepting that gift. THAT'S IT!! NOTHING beyond that. All works are simply evidence that we have a relationship with God and that we are willing to do those things that please Him and avoid those that displease Him. There is NO work that we can to do earn Heaven and to add legal requirements to God's grace is to want to enforce the curse that was broken that day. You are following in the footsteps of the Pharisee's - demanding actions, instead of worship. The pursuit of Holiness, righteousness and the works of "helping widows and orphans" and "making disciples" are acts of worship, not attempts to earn God's love.
Click to expand...

There is a difference between saying Christ's sacrifice was necessary and saying that Christ's sacrifice is all that is required, no? In the end, we can only enter Heaven if we are perfect, so we must be made perfect to enter Heaven, and we are afforded even the possibility to become perfect because of Christ. Again I'll ask, why did the epistle writers stress living a righteous life so much if it does not matter?
 
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