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Christian Baptism

What is adequate baptism in Christianity

  • Have to be immersed

    Votes: 3 30.0%

  • Sprinkling of Holy Water works

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Pouring of Water over the head gets it done

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • Declaration of faith to another is all that is required

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • Accepting Jesus is enough without water/declarations

    Votes: 4 40.0%

  • Other method--Please share

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • I am not a Christian and cannot resist putting in my two cents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    10
Fearandloathing said:
Having had a look, I have to say I am not a fan of Paul to begin with, he is a little too militant.

My inspiration comes largely through the Book of John, and the letter from home to the 12 tribes of Isreal, the Book of James.
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Nothing wrong with sticking with that which touches your heart.
 
ludin said:
Depends on who you ask and what faith they belong to.

Most non-catholics (Baptists, Methodists etc ...) baptism is an outward expression of an inward impression. It is an outward sign that you have accepted Christ as your Savior.
Baptism is not salvation it is an expression to others that you have chosen to follow God.

No baptism is not required for salvation.
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Oh you must not live in the south or else the southern baptists in your area are a lot more open minded about that than they are in my area. I have never encountered a baptist locally who would state that Baptism wasn't the most important step to salvation.
 
Declan said:
Wasn't trying to give you your licks, theologically or otherwise. I have heard other people say things that would make me think that either I am reading Romans 2 wrong or they are. For instance, there are people who think that once you are baptized, you get into the Heaven HOV lane that has no off ramps before the pearly gates. I think they are very misguided based on scripture.
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The "spanking" was a joke, I enjoy being reminded how little I know of the Bible.

That's why I have a problem with Paul. It is so easy to take it at face value when it should not be. My teaching when confronting "difficult passages" of the Bible is to ask when was it written, who wrote it, who were the intended audience, and what is the context. It is therefor important for me to remember that all Paul's writings are letters to a specific audience.
The next step is to reference it across the Gospels and/or the OT. In effect "what does Jesus say" And on the idea that we all have this back stage pass, Jesus is very clear....he uses the words "I don't know you". and each of us should live in some fear about those words. We do not have a pass, we have "The burden of Christ" in which we have become yoked in response to "come to me all of you who are tired and weary..."
 
Fearandloathing said:
The "spanking" was a joke, I enjoy being reminded how little I know of the Bible.

That's why I have a problem with Paul. It is so easy to take it at face value when it should not be. My teaching when confronting "difficult passages" of the Bible is to ask when was it written, who wrote it, who were the intended audience, and what is the context. It is therefor important for me to remember that all Paul's writings are letters to a specific audience.
The next step is to reference it across the Gospels and/or the OT. In effect "what does Jesus say" And on the idea that we all have this back stage pass, Jesus is very clear....he uses the words "I don't know you". and each of us should live in some fear about those words. We do not have a pass, we have "The burden of Christ" in which we have become yoked in response to "come to me all of you who are tired and weary..."
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We should all be mindful of the origins of any text with which we are willing to invest our trust. The letters were often circulated among churches. Paul might write Church A which would then rewrite them to send to Church B,C,F,M, and Q and so on. I prefer to live in the spirit of faith than the parsing of scripture myself, but others are more literal about every single thing in the Bible than I am.
 
American said:
John baptized Jesus. You can argue sematics all you want, but Abraham was consider a friend of God as was Moses. Neither were officially baptized. Also remember the topic is about what kind of baptism is acceptable, and they vary among denominations.
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I'm not arguing semantics. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it semantics.
 
Declan said:
We should all be mindful of the origins of any text with which we are willing to invest our trust. The letters were often circulated among churches. Paul might write Church A which would then rewrite them to send to Church B,C,F,M, and Q and so on. I prefer to live in the spirit of faith than the parsing of scripture myself, but others are more literal about every single thing in the Bible than I am.
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Then I would say you are wise.

I believe it is the middle ages literal interpretations are the reason Christianity is so distrusted.
 
Declan said:
Oh you must not live in the south or else the southern baptists in your area are a lot more open minded about that than they are in my area. I have never encountered a baptist locally who would state that Baptism wasn't the most important step to salvation.
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The most important step in salvation is accepting Christ as your savior. without that baptism is useless.
baptism is identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

that can only take place after you have accepted him as your savior.
 
Paleocon said:
I'm not arguing semantics. Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it semantics.
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Very funny, and arrogant to think you know the true meaning of things and others don't. :lol:
 
Fearandloathing said:
Having had a look, I have to say I am not a fan of Paul to begin with, he is a little too militant.

My inspiration comes largely through the Book of John, and the letter from home to the 12 tribes of Isreal, the Book of James.
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Then you should disregard about 75% of the NT.
 
Declan said:
Nothing wrong with sticking with that which touches your heart.
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I have to disagree with this statement. The gospel is not written for you to feel good about yourself, it's just the opposite. It's to show you that underneath it all you're a wretch and you need a savior.
 
Gringo allstar said:
I have to disagree with this statement. The gospel is not written for you to feel good about yourself, it's just the opposite. It's to show you that underneath it all you're a wretch and you need a savior.
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That is fine. Glass is half-empty people can drink from the same fountain as glass is half-full people.
 
ludin said:
The most important step in salvation is accepting Christ as your savior. without that baptism is useless.
baptism is identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

that can only take place after you have accepted him as your savior.
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Perhaps, but trust me when I tell you that there are a lot of baptists who think the ritual IS the only route and once you get wet, you are forgiven for any sin you happen to commit thereafter.
 
"This only serves to confirm my suspicions that I'm still a man in need of a Savior."

 
Declan said:
Perhaps, but trust me when I tell you that there are a lot of baptists who think the ritual IS the only route and once you get wet, you are forgiven for any sin you happen to commit thereafter.
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Well if you're truly saved you are forgiven for sins past, present and future. Those who are the elect were predestined before the foundations of the world were even in existence.
 
Fearandloathing said:
You are correct in that it is choice we make in our hearts. But a minor point, Jesus never commanded anyone to be baptized, as with most of His teachings, it was done by example, being baptized by his cousin John.

In fact Jesus gave us only one law "this commandment I give you...." John 13:34 the "Mandatum Utimatum: "love one another, as I have loved you, love one another."
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Simply not true.

Matthew 28:16-20 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

And this passage demonstrates, clearly, that one can be saved prior to baptism.

Acts 10:44-48 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles.
44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
 
Paleocon said:
Baptism is necessary for salvation.

It can be administered either by immersion or by pouring, but the prescripts of the conference of bishops should be observed. Baptism requires for validity that water flow on the head, thus sprinkling should only be used in an emergency when there is not enough water to pour, and if so used baptism should be conditionally repeated later, if the person lives.
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So basically, a person who finds Christ, but gets shot before he can get baptized, is **** out of luck? I'm so happy that my holy trinity is a lot more lax that that.
 
American said:
Jesus didn't institute it. John the Baptist was doing it before Jesus started his ministry.
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And, before John the Baptist, the Jews were using the ritual of the Mikvah Bath as a means of purification for generations. The group John the Baptist was in basically brought it to the common people, and not just the ones who had the resources to get to the temple.
 
maquiscat said:
So basically, a person who finds Christ, but gets shot before he can get baptized, is **** out of luck? I'm so happy that my holy trinity is a lot more lax that that.
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There can be baptism of desire to remove original sin.
 
Water is symbolic so any such is fine.
More significant would seem to be when. Some do it as infants where the baby is received into the Christian community others as adults (of some sort) where its indicative of a conscience desire to join the body of Christ.
 
Paleocon said:
There can be baptism of desire to remove original sin.
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No can be. That's all there is to it. The water without the desire means nothing, while a person can be saved while all alone in the middle of the desert (not at an oasis). The desire is all that matters. The water ceremony is a great, and even powerful, symbolic tool, but that is all it is. When we put too much stock in the ceremony, then we lose focus on the part that is most important, and that is the desire and choice to be saved. It's one of the reasons that when someone tells me that I can't be truly saved unless I'm baptized in their church, I turn and run. They've lost the way.
 
maquiscat said:
No can be. That's all there is to it. The water without the desire means nothing, while a person can be saved while all alone in the middle of the desert (not at an oasis). The desire is all that matters. The water ceremony is a great, and even powerful, symbolic tool, but that is all it is. When we put too much stock in the ceremony, then we lose focus on the part that is most important, and that is the desire and choice to be saved. It's one of the reasons that when someone tells me that I can't be truly saved unless I'm baptized in their church, I turn and run. They've lost the way.
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When one declares the dictates of the Almighty to be symbolic, and overemphasizes subjective intent, one gives rise to the sort of mindset that considers warning one of danger to their soul to be wrong, as you seem to have.
 
Declan said:
I ask that atheists and non-Christians refrain from passive-agressive posting trying to derail threads and let those who have something substantive to offer have this discussion please.

There are different types of Baptism in Christian practice. The three most common are the full dunk immersion, the sprinkling of Holy Water (aspersion), and the pouring of water on the head (affusion). Some believe that baptism as a rite is not necessary and that Baptism by Declaration is all that is needed (for example: you declare your faith in Jesus to another) while an even smaller minority seem to believe that just being a person who accepts Jesus is all that is required--no water or public declaration necessary.


Where do you folks come down on this issue?
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I like this explanation from the Didache:

"And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things (baptismal vows), baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before."
 
Paleocon said:
When one declares the dictates of the Almighty to be symbolic, and overemphasizes subjective intent, one gives rise to the sort of mindset that considers warning one of danger to their soul to be wrong, as you seem to have.
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Yep. If the sacraments are only symbols, then the crucifixion of Christ was just an execution.
 
Declan said:
Then what about the man who lives to be 100 in Africa or China who has never seen or read the Bible or been exposed to Christianity? How can they accept or reject that which they do not know?
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I always thought Romans 2:12 was appropriate here:

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
 
Fearandloathing said:
You are correct in that it is choice we make in our hearts. But a minor point, Jesus never commanded anyone to be baptized, as with most of His teachings, it was done by example, being baptized by his cousin John.
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Matt 28:19

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
 
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