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Evangelicals with gay children challenging church

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Dragonfly said:
So the "evangelical parents", the ones truly closest to the whole situation, might be overly vague for what reason?
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That's not what I said, I said the article is vague. It doesn't go into any detail. Or at least, that's what I meant. :)

Personally, I don't agree with placing a 12 year old kid into any therapy program just because he claims to be gay. Not even sure how a 12 year old could proclaim that. Not sure I am in favor of placing any minor in a "gay reparative therapy" program. But I am just curious as to what these programs entail.
 
nota bene said:
As I've already said, the OP misses the good news in the story.
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No - the OP is basically calling out the tragic situation for what it was.

The fact that the parents have turned a horrific loss into something positive is a good thing, but lets not try to gloss over the FACT that the parents caused this tragedy in the first place.

I'm glad they have seen the error in their ways. That's good. Hopefully they can help other families and possibly prevent more senseless deaths. All good stuff.
 
Dragonfly said:
No - the OP is basically calling out the tragic situation for what it was.

The fact that the parents have turned a horrific loss into something positive is a good thing, but lets not try to gloss over the FACT that the parents caused this tragedy in the first place.

I'm glad they have seen the error in their ways. That's good. Hopefully they can help other families and possibly prevent more senseless deaths. All good stuff.
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I don't think there is enough information to determine the parents "caused" this. We still have absolutely no idea what the "therapy" entailed.
 
countryboy said:
I don't think there is enough information to determine the parents "caused" this. We still have absolutely no idea what the "therapy" entailed.
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A despondent Ryan cut off from his parents and his faith,
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It's really quite clear. There's plenty on information. The parents are not denying anything.
 
Dragonfly said:
It's really quite clear. There's plenty on information. The parents are not denying anything.
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I don't deny the parents feel responsible, and I have the utmost sympathy for them. I know what it is like to lose a child. But I don't see how you can claim there are enough details in the article, clearly there is none. What am I missing? Can you quote the relevant portions?
 
countryboy said:
Yes, that definitely does sound harmful and akin to abuse. But that doesn't speak at all to the therapy the kid in the OP supposedly underwent. And no offense, but I have no way to confirm your friend's story is even true. It sounds a bit far fetched. Which doesn't necessarily mean it's not true, just difficult to believe. Even if it is true, I seriously doubt it's the norm, it sounds cult like in the extreme.
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Of course you are going to deny it. It doesn't fit your narrative. HOWEVER, when it comes to reparatative therapy, above and beyond my friends PERSONAL experience, the rate of suicide among people who went throught it is much higher than those who didn't. From what I understand, what my friend went through was an extreme, but even the 'lessor' experiences raised the death rate.

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ch_and_prevention/file/3deec51a62c797114c.pdf

NARTH Report: Suicide attempts increase during sexual orientation change therapy
 
mak2 said:
I was raised in a very very evangelical conservative Christian home. For many years after I got out I did not go near a Church. I am now a member of a much more liberal church and believe it's attitude toward all sinners, not just homosexuals, seems to be much more like what I think Jesus would want. I cannot understand how the Chruch can be so strongly against the one sin of homosexuality, while seeming to ignore many many others.
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It's not the church

It's the people inside
 
countryboy said:
People go to therapy for all kinds of reasons. But I'll check the article and get back to you.
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Conversion therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Psychologist Douglas Haldeman writes that conversion therapy comprises efforts by mental health professionals and pastoral care providers to convert lesbians and gay men to heterosexuality by techniques including aversive treatments, such as "the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals," and "nausea-inducing drugs...administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli," masturbatory reconditioning, visualization, social skills training, psychoanalytic therapy, and spiritual interventions, such as "prayer and group support and pressure."[10]
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It's like A Clockwork Orange
 
Dragonfly said:
No - the OP is basically calling out the tragic situation for what it was.

The fact that the parents have turned a horrific loss into something positive is a good thing, but lets not try to gloss over the FACT that the parents caused this tragedy in the first place.

I'm glad they have seen the error in their ways. That's good. Hopefully they can help other families and possibly prevent more senseless deaths. All good stuff.
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Yeah, the "good news" (which BTW, is what the word "Gospel" means) is that it takes the death of their gay child for evangelicals to wake the **** up.
 
I don't understand what you are trying to say, but your post got a lot of likes.... so I want to try to understand what you are trying to say.

What are talking about "who one is" and "what one does?" Are you saying homosexuality is an act, or are you trying to condemn certain behaviors of other christians?

What does somebody mistaking your child for your lover have to do with this topic? Is it a sin to have a sugar mommy or daddy? If that happened to me, I might feel a little disgusted and laugh at their confusion, but I wouldn't get angry about their mistake... seems a little silly to associate them with bigotry.

nota bene said:
Too bad you missed all the positive information--that evangelicals with gay children are causing their fellow churchgoers, their churches, to face this important issue. In so many cases, it's a matter of awareness, and it's always an opportunity to accept the challenge of "Judge not."

Further there are children who grew up in their various churches and who were known and often loved and admired by all who have now grown up and who remain active in those faith communities. There is an enormous difference between who one is and what one does. And at the end of the eternal day, matter of conscience that will be between you and your God.

Like the poor, the ignorant bigots will always be with us. Can you imagine attending a church service with your child and realizing that the stares are because idiot strangers assume that you are your child's sugar daddy or mommie?

Of course, people like this are deserving of pity and prayer and therefore an opportunity for the parent to grow in the Spirit.
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Why doesn't Christianity focus more on the sin of gluttony considering America has issues with obesity and diabetes? Condemning overeating in the US is going to make people less happy, as you put it, but the teachings in the bible are true, right? Perhaps society has largely forgotten gluttony is a sin, and need to be reminded.

Then you also have large numbers of millennials preferring co-habitating over marriage, and all together opting out of marriage. Fornication is on the rise...

cpwill said:
True enough to that.

Jesus' attitude towards sinners was pretty simple, but two-parted: He loved them, but refused to enable them, instead challenging them to repent. That's why the formulation is "Your sins are forgiven, go forth and sin no more." That's the proper attitude for the Church as well. Love homosexuals, but don't teach them falsely in order to make everyone "happier".

As for the Church, it strikes me that, when it came to marriage, Jesus had quite a lot to say about Divorce.... I tend to hold that up as a yardstick that many of our denominations fall short of.
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That's horrible. I knew a young kid who went to something like that too. It didn't turn him heterosexual, and his parents ended up disowning him at 15 years old. He was homeless, bouncing around, and sleeping on people's couches when I knew him. I think of him a lot, and I really hope he is doing OK right now.


RAMOSS said:
Well, I know someone who went through that therapy as a teen because of it being pushed on by their parents.. it was a 'pray the gay away' camp, and from what I gather, ti was extreme version of most therapies. People basically are being told they are worthless because of who they are. In the case of my friend, there also was electroshock therapy, 'baptism' where she nearly got drown, then 'prayed' over. 13 kids went to that session (about 18 years ago now). Out of those 13 kids, 7 are dead. 2 suicides, and 5 drug overdoses.

Does that sound like harm to you?
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I cannot believe that any rational, sane, intelligent human being seriously believes in "sin"
 
sangha said:
Yeah, the "good news" (which BTW, is what the word "Gospel" means) is that it takes the death of their gay child for evangelicals to wake the **** up.
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It didn't take their child's death to wake up these parents. From the Daily Mail article previously linked:

And while this worked for some time, in the end Ryan could not deny his sexuality.

This led to him running off and using drugs when he was just a teenager they say, and going over a year without speaking to either of his parents.

'Suddenly our fear of Ryan someday having a boyfriend (a possibility that honestly terrified me) seemed trivial in contrast to our fear of Ryan’s death, especially in light of his recent rejection of Christianity, and his mounting anger at God,' wrote Linda on her Facebook page.

When Ryan came back though after 18 long months, the family did accept him, and his boyfriends, but sadly their time together was short lived.

Just 10 months after returning Ryan overdosed after a night out with his old friends.

Washington parents whose gay son died now help other Christians accept gay children | Daily Mail Online
 
Urethra Franklin said:
I cannot believe that any rational, sane, intelligent human being seriously believes in "sin"
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I am rational, sane, reasonably intelligent, and have enough self-respect not to choose a screen name such as "Urethra," and I do seriously, seriously believe in sin.
 
nota bene said:
It didn't take their child's death to wake up these parents. From the Daily Mail article previously linked:

And while this worked for some time, in the end Ryan could not deny his sexuality.

This led to him running off and using drugs when he was just a teenager they say, and going over a year without speaking to either of his parents.

'Suddenly our fear of Ryan someday having a boyfriend (a possibility that honestly terrified me) seemed trivial in contrast to our fear of Ryan’s death, especially in light of his recent rejection of Christianity, and his mounting anger at God,' wrote Linda on her Facebook page.

When Ryan came back though after 18 long months, the family did accept him, and his boyfriends, but sadly their time together was short lived.

Just 10 months after returning Ryan overdosed after a night out with his old friends.

Washington parents whose gay son died now help other Christians accept gay children | Daily Mail Online
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Well, EXCU-U-U-U-U-SE ME!!!

It "only" took their gay son to become a homeless drug abuser in order for them to wake the **** up

That's a completely different thing. :roll:

And all because of the reasonable "fear of Ryan someday having a boyfriend"
 
How lucky you are not to have ever made any errors, Sangha. It must be amazing to be able to sit in such smug judgment of others.
 
nota bene said:
How lucky you are not to have ever made any errors, Sangha. It must be amazing to be able to sit in such smug judgment of others.
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I have made errors

But one error I have never made is to throw a family member onto the street because they were gay.

But for the record, there's nothing "amazing" about being morally superior to the perverted right wing christians. Most people do it with little effort.
 
countryboy said:
Really? What exactly do they do that is so horrible, that you wish to use the force of law to force parents to raise their children as only you see fit?
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Um, they give false hope and expectations and lead to drug abuse...Did you even read the OP? Some of them have used downright torture even
 
countryboy said:
Yes, that definitely does sound harmful and akin to abuse. But that doesn't speak at all to the therapy the kid in the OP supposedly underwent. And no offense, but I have no way to confirm your friend's story is even true. It sounds a bit far fetched. Which doesn't necessarily mean it's not true, just difficult to believe. Even if it is true, I seriously doubt it's the norm, it sounds cult like in the extreme.
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Let me put it this way, how can it *not* be harmful? You get sent to some "reparative therapy camp" against your will, your parents spend thousands of dollars...who do you think will be blamed when it doesn't work??

There's a comedy of sorts about this - "But i'm a cheerleader" - that could give you at least a base understanding of the pressures and rejection they're subjected to
 
nota bene said:
How lucky you are not to have ever made any errors, Sangha. It must be amazing to be able to sit in such smug judgment of others.
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Must be amazing for you to not be a kid totally rejected by one's parents, church, and community

There are errors like overcooking dinner, and then there are errors like ruining a kid's life. The latter we often send people to jail for, but somehow in 48 states sexuality is an exception to that. Actually, i know how
 
RAMOSS said:
Of course you are going to deny it. It doesn't fit your narrative. HOWEVER, when it comes to reparatative therapy, above and beyond my friends PERSONAL experience, the rate of suicide among people who went throught it is much higher than those who didn't. From what I understand, what my friend went through was an extreme, but even the 'lessor' experiences raised the death rate.

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ch_and_prevention/file/3deec51a62c797114c.pdf

NARTH Report: Suicide attempts increase during sexual orientation change therapy
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I didn't deny anything. If you actually read my posts in this thread you would see I am only looking for answers. But please, don't let that stop you from being snarky. :roll:
 
chromium said:
Um, they give false hope and expectations and lead to drug abuse...Did you even read the OP? Some of them have used downright torture even
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I read the OP, and the only way you could come to those conclusions is if you are making it up, or have some other knowledge. Because the article in the OP doesn't even touch on any methodology whatsoever.
 
chromium said:
Let me put it this way, how can it *not* be harmful? You get sent to some "reparative therapy camp" against your will, your parents spend thousands of dollars...who do you think will be blamed when it doesn't work??

There's a comedy of sorts about this - "But i'm a cheerleader" - that could give you at least a base understanding of the pressures and rejection they're subjected to
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Well, I keep hearing what these places do, but I have yet to see any verifiable evidence. Do you have any sources?

To be fair, RAMOSS gave me a couple of links, but I don't have time to peruse them yet. I will later though.
 
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