John 1:1 makes the trinity impossible.

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word (literal translation).

Now Lets say we agree the word applies to Jesus, or at least some form of Jesus pre-existing, (be it personal or not).

What is God?

If we ignore the use of the article in the first instance of God and the lack of one in the second, and we claim that the first instance of God is the same as the second, and they are both identifying and entity.

What are they identifying?

Is it God the trinity? was Jesus with the trinity? Was Jesus the trinity? Both are Heresies.

Is God the Son? Was Jesus with the son?

Is God the father? was Jesus the father?

It simply doesn't work.

So we have 2 options, either we claim that the first instance of "God" means the father and the second instance means the son, in which case we have 2 Gods ... we have henotheism, great, we are Arians.

Or we say that the second instance of "God" lacking the article is NOT identifying the word, but describing the word ... in which case the word is "Godlike" or "divine" ... great, again we have Arianism.

But the fact is the article in front of the first "god" and the lack of one in front of the second "god" IS significant, very significant, it's the ONLY place in the whole bible where that happens.

John wasn't writing in a vacume, he knew about Proverbs 8, the Song of Solomon, Sirach, he knew about Philo's "logos" theology. He knew about the concept of the "logos" in philo, or "wisdom" in proverbs, Song of solomon and Sirach, being a created entity through which God created everything, and which was with God from the begining .... and in THAT context John 1:1 makes sense .... the only context it makes NO sense is a trinitarian one.

(if you're a trinitarian and want to respond, don't copy and paste a link, and don't copy and paste from some apologetic website listing citied scriptures with no context ... actually DEAL with the issue I presented and the theology of John 1:1. Thank you.)

The majority of the Gospels does not make too much sense in a Trinitarian view. Jesus constantly separates himself from the father, and goes to great lengths to NOT say that he was God. Take just the simple statement in the Garden "Not my will but thine be done." How does one entity have two different wills? And why were the Hebrews not worshiping a Two-Fold God when the Holy Spirit was recognized in OT passages. In the OT, the Holy Spirit was not a separate entity, but was God's power. Then all of a sudden it jumps from One to Three, no Two at any point? My wife and I argue about this from time to time, but I see no Gospel evidence that clearly supports the Trinity, but lots that suggest a Unitarian viewpoint.

You wish to claim that John 1:1 is evidence that the trinity does not exist but then want to ignore the inevitable response that in the same book John 10:30 says "I and the Father are one." You only wish to deny the trinity not to have a theological debate.

tomkat364 said:

The majority of the Gospels does not make too much sense in a Trinitarian view. Jesus constantly separates himself from the father, and goes to great lengths to NOT say that he was God. Take just the simple statement in the Garden "Not my will but thine be done." How does one entity have two different wills? And why were the Hebrews not worshiping a Two-Fold God when the Holy Spirit was recognized in OT passages. In the OT, the Holy Spirit was not a separate entity, but was God's power. Then all of a sudden it jumps from One to Three, no Two at any point? My wife and I argue about this from time to time, but I see no Gospel evidence that clearly supports the Trinity, but lots that suggest a Unitarian viewpoint.

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Wrong. Jesus repeatedly and clearly place Himself on equal footing with God in multiple instances. So either you have two separate Gods that are co-equals or Jesus and The Father are one. Me, I tend to believe that they are one, since Jesus made the statement that He and the Father are one.

faithful_servant said:

Wrong. Jesus repeatedly and clearly place Himself on equal footing with God in multiple instances. So either you have two separate Gods that are co-equals or Jesus and The Father are one. Me, I tend to believe that they are one, since Jesus made the statement that He and the Father are one.

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Jesus specifically states that he has power and authority granted to him by the Father. He acts in the Father's name, but I would disagree that he puts himself on equal footing. He calls himself the Son and states he will appear on the right hand of the father. A son is subordinate to a father (especially in 1st century Judaism) and a hand is definitely not on par with a whole being, ignoring the fact that one cannot sit beside himself. He claims to be "the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world." You cannot set yourself apart, and this passage sounds much more like selection from other subordinates than being part of the Father.

This is one of those discussions that will always be flavored by how you start looking at things. If you start with the belief that Jesus was one part of a triune God, nothing will persuade you otherwise, and that's fine. Not claiming I'm right without a doubt, but I believe a critical interpretation of the text demonstrates much more evidence for Jesus separating himself from the Father than equating himself with Him.

Crovax said:

You wish to claim that John 1:1 is evidence that the trinity does not exist but then want to ignore the inevitable response that in the same book John 10:30 says "I and the Father are one." You only wish to deny the trinity not to have a theological debate.

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It also says that the Followers of Jesus are one with Jesus. John 17:21 through 23 indicates that might not be exactly what you claim it means.

RAMOSS said:

It also says that the Followers of Jesus are one with Jesus. John 17:21 through 23 indicates that might not be exactly what you claim it means.

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Maybe you should read those passages.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one I in them and you in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." -John 17:20-23

I noticed that you conveniently left out John 17:20 which makes it clear that it is Jesus' prayer that we all become one like he and God are, not that it is already the case. This only reinforces the belief in the trinity as that it tells us once again that Jesus and God are one.

Crovax said:

You wish to claim that John 1:1 is evidence that the trinity does not exist but then want to ignore the inevitable response that in the same book John 10:30 says "I and the Father are one." You only wish to deny the trinity not to have a theological debate.

Click to expand...

faithful_servant said:

Wrong. Jesus repeatedly and clearly place Himself on equal footing with God in multiple instances. So either you have two separate Gods that are co-equals or Jesus and The Father are one. Me, I tend to believe that they are one, since Jesus made the statement that He and the Father are one.

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First of all read the rest of John 10:

31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand[e] that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 Then they tried to arrest him again, but he escaped from their hands.

He specifically refutes them saying that he's not blaspheming because even they are called Gods, in teh scriptures, and he only Calls himself "Gods son."

And we have to see how Jesus uses "oneness" for example in John 17

11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,[f] so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one,

So it's obvious that it's not ontological, I mean this is all over John, that the apostles are one With Jesus and one With God ...

But again, please deal With the actual scripture at hand, we can deal With the rest of John later ... it's really not that difficult, the oneness issue is simply not an issue, since the apostles are also one With God and one With Jesus, so it's CLEARLY not ontological oneness we are talking about.

Crovax said:

Maybe you should read those passages.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one I in them and you in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." -John 17:20-23

I noticed that you conveniently left out John 17:20 which makes it clear that it is Jesus' prayer that we all become one like he and God are, not that it is already the case. This only reinforces the belief in the trinity as that it tells us once again that Jesus and God are one.

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Um no, bceause at no time does God become a 15ity .... Jesus is obviously not using "oneness" ontologically.

But I see you can't deal With the actual scripture I posted.

Crovax said:

Maybe you should read those passages.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one I in them and you in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." -John 17:20-23

I noticed that you conveniently left out John 17:20 which makes it clear that it is Jesus' prayer that we all become one like he and God are, not that it is already the case. This only reinforces the belief in the trinity as that it tells us once again that Jesus and God are one.

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Only if you start with the assumption that Jesus is god.

Crovax said:

"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one I in them and you in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." -John 17:20-23

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The Father gave Jesus glory. He does not claim that the glory is his. The Father sent Jesus and loved Jesus. All of these are simply not ways in which a PERSON would speak of himself. If you read the Gospels without the preconceived notion that Jesus is God, you would assume that he is separate and subordinate to the Father. That is how relationships in our natural world exist. There is no need for a complicated relationship between the Father and his son in which they are two sides of a three-sided coin. Having asked many people the same question, priests and lay-persons alike, "How can God's will not be God's will (referring to the prayer in the Garden)" the answer always comes down to "we cannot understand it on human terms, they're the same but separate." It just seems like a forced argument to me. It makes perfect sense that when presenting a monotheistic people with a second figure to worship and adore, the early church had to elevate Jesus to equal status in order to avoid breaking the 1st commandment.
I have no problem viewing Christ as unique and special, a figure to emulate and find holy. He doesn't NEED to be God in order to do so.

Crovax said:

You wish to claim that John 1:1 is evidence that the trinity does not exist but then want to ignore the inevitable response that in the same book John 10:30 says "I and the Father are one." You only wish to deny the trinity not to have a theological debate.

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Jesus made that statement as a mortal--He also made the statement--- The Father is greater than i---proving 100%--- one meant in purpose- not in being.

The Deity of Jesus Christ

Theological scholar Kevin J. Conner lists 27 initial scriptural evidences demonstrating the deity of Christ:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture « The Righter Report

Jesus Must be Jehovah:

Is Jesus God? What do the Scriptures say?

John 1:23 quotes Isaiah 40:3 as saying John the Baptist was to prepare the way for the LORD (Jehovah). John prepared the way before Jesus so Jesus must be LORD (Jehovah).

In Isaiah 44:8 God is the only Rock. Psalm 18:31 says, “Who is the Rock except our God”? I Corinthians 10:4, identifies Jesus as the Rock. Jesus must also then be God the Rock.

Isaiah 44:24 says that God (Jehovah) is the one who has made all things. Colossians 1:16, speaking of Christ, says that “all things were created by Him and for him”. Jesus must therefore be Jehovah God.

In Jeremiah 10:10 it says “the LORD (Jehovah) is the true God”. I John 5:20 states that Jesus is the “true God”. Jesus must be the true God.

Isaiah 43:10,11 says that “I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me. Jesus is the Savior (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc., etc.). Jesus must be God the Savior.

Jehovah knows all things (Psalm 147:5). Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah alone is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. (1 Kings 8:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus knows the hearts of all men. (John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:18, 23). Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13). Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:10). Only God is the sanctifier of men. Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our peace (Judges 6:23). Jesus is our peace (Ephesians 2:14). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). Jesus is our righteousness. (Romans 3:21-22; 1 Corinthians 1:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be delivered / snatched out of His hand (Deuteronomy 32:39). Jesus is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (John 10:28). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters” (Ezekiel 43:2). Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters” (Revelation 1:15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is present everywhere.(Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:24; I Kings 8:27); Jesus is omnipresent (John 1:48; Matthew 18:20; 28:20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s nature does not change (Malachi 3:6). Jesus’ nature does not change. (Hebrews 13:8).

Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve”(2 Kings 17:35); Jesus (identified as the Creator in Colossians 1:16-17) is to be served (Colossians 3:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy (Isaiah 8:12b-13). Jesus, as Lord, is to be set apart as holy (1 Peter 3:14b-15a).

Jehovah’s glory is not to be given to another (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus shares Jehovah’s glory (John 17:5). Jesus must be Jehovah.

God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh—YHWH – Isaiah 42:8). Jesus has Jehovah’s name (John 17:11; John 16:14-15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “mighty God” (Jeremiah 32:17-18; Isaiah 10:20-21). Jesus is the “mighty God”
(Isaiah 9:6) who is “Almighty” (Revelation 1:7-8).

Jehovah is “the first and the last” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12). Jesus is the “first and the last” (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s title is “the Holy One” (Isaiah 47:4). Jesus is “the Holy One” (Acts 3:14; John 6:69). Jesus must be Jehovah, the Holy One.

Jehovah is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (Isaiah 8:13-15). Jesus is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (1 Peter 2:6-8). Jesus must be Jehovah.

More in the link below.

Jesus Must be Jehovah « The Righter Report

Logicman said:

Jesus Must be Jehovah:

Is Jesus God? What do the Scriptures say?

John 1:23 quotes Isaiah 40:3 as saying John the Baptist was to prepare the way for the LORD (Jehovah). John prepared the way before Jesus so Jesus must be LORD (Jehovah).

In Isaiah 44:8 God is the only Rock. Psalm 18:31 says, “Who is the Rock except our God”? I Corinthians 10:4, identifies Jesus as the Rock. Jesus must also then be God the Rock.

Isaiah 44:24 says that God (Jehovah) is the one who has made all things. Colossians 1:16, speaking of Christ, says that “all things were created by Him and for him”. Jesus must therefore be Jehovah God.

In Jeremiah 10:10 it says “the LORD (Jehovah) is the true God”. I John 5:20 states that Jesus is the “true God”. Jesus must be the true God.

Isaiah 43:10,11 says that “I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me. Jesus is the Savior (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc., etc.). Jesus must be God the Savior.

Jehovah knows all things (Psalm 147:5). Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah alone is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. (1 Kings 8:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus knows the hearts of all men. (John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:18, 23). Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13). Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:10). Only God is the sanctifier of men. Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our peace (Judges 6:23). Jesus is our peace (Ephesians 2:14). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). Jesus is our righteousness. (Romans 3:21-22; 1 Corinthians 1:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be delivered / snatched out of His hand (Deuteronomy 32:39). Jesus is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (John 10:28). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters” (Ezekiel 43:2). Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters” (Revelation 1:15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is present everywhere.(Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:24; I Kings 8:27); Jesus is omnipresent (John 1:48; Matthew 18:20; 28:20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s nature does not change (Malachi 3:6). Jesus’ nature does not change. (Hebrews 13:8).

Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve”(2 Kings 17:35); Jesus (identified as the Creator in Colossians 1:16-17) is to be served (Colossians 3:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy (Isaiah 8:12b-13). Jesus, as Lord, is to be set apart as holy (1 Peter 3:14b-15a).

Jehovah’s glory is not to be given to another (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus shares Jehovah’s glory (John 17:5). Jesus must be Jehovah.

God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh—YHWH – Isaiah 42:8). Jesus has Jehovah’s name (John 17:11; John 16:14-15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “mighty God” (Jeremiah 32:17-18; Isaiah 10:20-21). Jesus is the “mighty God”
(Isaiah 9:6) who is “Almighty” (Revelation 1:7-8).

Jehovah is “the first and the last” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12). Jesus is the “first and the last” (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah’s title is “the Holy One” (Isaiah 47:4). Jesus is “the Holy One” (Acts 3:14; John 6:69). Jesus must be Jehovah, the Holy One.

Jehovah is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (Isaiah 8:13-15). Jesus is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (1 Peter 2:6-8). Jesus must be Jehovah.

More in the link below.

Jesus Must be Jehovah « The Righter Report

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Jesus is not Jehovah--This is what occurs--Acts 2:22

kjw47 said:

Jesus is not Jehovah--This is what occurs--Acts 2:22

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Acts 2:22 speaks about God accrediting Jesus with the power of miracles. And which "God" is it that enabled Jesus to do those miracles? The Holy Spirit, who is also God.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF CHRIST

Author Kevin Conner lists the following evidences of the Holy Spirit working in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (The Foundations of Christian Doctrine - Conner 78):

1. He was born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-20).
2. He was filled with the fullness of the Spirit (John 3:34).
3. He was led by the Spirit (Matthew 4:1).
4. He was empowered by the Spirit (Luke 4:14).
5. He was anointed by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
6. He spoke and taught by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
7. He healed the sick by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
8. He cast out devils by the power of the Spirit (Matthew 12:28)
9. He was justified (vindicated) by the Spirit (I Timothy 3:16).
10. He was offered up on Calvary by the Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
11. He was resurrected by the Spirit (Romans 8:11, I Peter 3:18).
12. He gave commandments to the disciples by the Spirit (Acts 1:2).
13. He baptized and empowered the church by the Spirit (Acts 1:5, 8)
14. He directs and governs the church by the Spirit (Revelation 2:7, 11).

Logicman said:

Acts 2:22 speaks about God accrediting Jesus with the power of miracles. And which "God" is it that enabled Jesus to do those miracles? The Holy Spirit, who is also God.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF CHRIST

Author Kevin Conner lists the following evidences of the Holy Spirit working in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (The Foundations of Christian Doctrine - Conner 78):

1. He was born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-20).
2. He was filled with the fullness of the Spirit (John 3:34).
3. He was led by the Spirit (Matthew 4:1).
4. He was empowered by the Spirit (Luke 4:14).
5. He was anointed by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
6. He spoke and taught by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
7. He healed the sick by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
8. He cast out devils by the power of the Spirit (Matthew 12:28)
9. He was justified (vindicated) by the Spirit (I Timothy 3:16).
10. He was offered up on Calvary by the Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
11. He was resurrected by the Spirit (Romans 8:11, I Peter 3:18).
12. He gave commandments to the disciples by the Spirit (Acts 1:2).
13. He baptized and empowered the church by the Spirit (Acts 1:5, 8)
14. He directs and governs the church by the Spirit (Revelation 2:7, 11).

Click to expand...

So why does "God the Son" need "God the Holy Spirit" to enact miracles. As I stated before, the Hebrews believed that the Holy Spirit was God's power, not another person of God. It was only once the church declared Jesus on equal level with the Father that the Holy Spirit was considered a separate entity as well. As I said, from One to Three without ever having been Two.

Logicman said:

Acts 2:22 speaks about God accrediting Jesus with the power of miracles. And which "God" is it that enabled Jesus to do those miracles? The Holy Spirit, who is also God.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF CHRIST

Author Kevin Conner lists the following evidences of the Holy Spirit working in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (The Foundations of Christian Doctrine - Conner 78):

1. He was born of the Spirit (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-20).
2. He was filled with the fullness of the Spirit (John 3:34).
3. He was led by the Spirit (Matthew 4:1).
4. He was empowered by the Spirit (Luke 4:14).
5. He was anointed by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
6. He spoke and taught by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
7. He healed the sick by the Spirit (Luke 4:18).
8. He cast out devils by the power of the Spirit (Matthew 12:28)
9. He was justified (vindicated) by the Spirit (I Timothy 3:16).
10. He was offered up on Calvary by the Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
11. He was resurrected by the Spirit (Romans 8:11, I Peter 3:18).
12. He gave commandments to the disciples by the Spirit (Acts 1:2).
13. He baptized and empowered the church by the Spirit (Acts 1:5, 8)
14. He directs and governs the church by the Spirit (Revelation 2:7, 11).

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Acts 2:22--Gods power goes through Jesus.

RGacky3 said:

Um no, bceause at no time does God become a 15ity .... Jesus is obviously not using "oneness" ontologically.

But I see you can't deal With the actual scripture I posted.

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I dont have to deal with anything you havent made a point. You just keep claiming that your point is obvious without anything else to back it up.

tomkat364 said:

So why does "God the Son" need "God the Holy Spirit" to enact miracles.

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From Philippians chapter 2:

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

He emptied himself of his divine powers and became a human. Therefore, as I showed in post # 17, he did his miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.

tomkat364 said:

As I stated before, the Hebrews believed that the Holy Spirit was God's power, not another person of God. It was only once the church declared Jesus on equal level with the Father that the Holy Spirit was considered a separate entity as well. As I said, from One to Three without ever having been Two.

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The Hebrews were mistaken. Here's why:

The Holy Spirit is a Person - God!

While in Genesis 1:2 we see the "Spirit of God" moving upon the face of the waters during creation (remember God as "Elohim," a plural creator), there is a very important and often overlooked verse in which the prophet Isaiah reveals that the Holy Spirit is more than just some type of spiritual force. Isaiah 63:10 reads,

"But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was
turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them."

The word "vexed," as used above, is the Hebrew word "atsab," which means "to worry, pain, or anger; to grieve, hurt, or make sorry" (Zodhiates Old Testament Word Study - Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary section, page 91). The question, of course, is "How can some inanimate force be angered or grieved, as we see occurred in the above passage? Only if the Holy Spirit was alive and possessed personal attributes could He experience these types of emotions." The Holy Spirit must therefore be a person.

Another important verse that shows that the Holy Spirit is one of the "Creators" is found in Job 33:4, which reads,

"The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty
hath given me life."

Obviously, the Holy Spirit must possess intelligence in order to take part in the creative process. Other "personal" attributes of the Holy Spirit are as follows:

1. The Holy Spirit "testifies" (Nehemiah 9:30).
2. The Spirit "instructs" (Nehemiah 9:20).
3. The Spirit "strives with men" (Genesis 6:3).
4. The Spirit sends messengers (Isaiah 48:16).
5. The Spirit enabled Joseph to interpret Pharoah's dreams (Genesis 41:38).
6. The Spirit gives wisdom (Exodus 28:3; 31:1-6; 35:31).
7. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Wisdom" (Isaiah 11:2).
8. He is the Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2)

Notice clearly that all of the things that the Holy Spirit does requires intelligence of the variety that only God alone can possess.

"Let US create man in our own image..."

RGacky3 said:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word (literal translation).
.)

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The entire concept of the Bible and Jesus is stupid... why bother?

Logicman said:

From Philippians chapter 2:

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

He emptied himself of his divine powers and became a human. Therefore, as I showed in post # 17, he did his miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.



The Hebrews were mistaken. Here's why:

The Holy Spirit is a Person - God!

While in Genesis 1:2 we see the "Spirit of God" moving upon the face of the waters during creation (remember God as "Elohim," a plural creator), there is a very important and often overlooked verse in which the prophet Isaiah reveals that the Holy Spirit is more than just some type of spiritual force. Isaiah 63:10 reads,

"But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was
turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them."

The word "vexed," as used above, is the Hebrew word "atsab," which means "to worry, pain, or anger; to grieve, hurt, or make sorry" (Zodhiates Old Testament Word Study - Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary section, page 91). The question, of course, is "How can some inanimate force be angered or grieved, as we see occurred in the above passage? Only if the Holy Spirit was alive and possessed personal attributes could He experience these types of emotions." The Holy Spirit must therefore be a person.

Another important verse that shows that the Holy Spirit is one of the "Creators" is found in Job 33:4, which reads,

"The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty
hath given me life."

Obviously, the Holy Spirit must possess intelligence in order to take part in the creative process. Other "personal" attributes of the Holy Spirit are as follows:

1. The Holy Spirit "testifies" (Nehemiah 9:30).
2. The Spirit "instructs" (Nehemiah 9:20).
3. The Spirit "strives with men" (Genesis 6:3).
4. The Spirit sends messengers (Isaiah 48:16).
5. The Spirit enabled Joseph to interpret Pharoah's dreams (Genesis 41:38).
6. The Spirit gives wisdom (Exodus 28:3; 31:1-6; 35:31).
7. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Wisdom" (Isaiah 11:2).
8. He is the Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2)

Notice clearly that all of the things that the Holy Spirit does requires intelligence of the variety that only God alone can possess.

"Let US create man in our own image..."

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I'm not arguing that the Holy Spirit is God. I believe that makes sense. "His Holy Spirit" is part of God, not a separate entity or another face of the Father. "But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was
turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them." sic therefore God was turned to be their enemy, and God fought against them. It is not saying that another being fought them, it's saying God fought them. "the spirit of God" is exactly that, God's essence. Notice there is no "Father" in the Old Testament. There is God, and when he acts in the world that is His spirit. But the Hebrews did not recognize this as two separate entities, they were the same being. Completely different from Jesus. "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" Notice here that it doesn't say equality with the Father, but equality with God. Even Paul was not saying Jesus WAS God. He was divine, but separate.

tomkat364 said:

I'm not arguing that the Holy Spirit is God. I believe that makes sense. "His Holy Spirit" is part of God, not a separate entity or another face of the Father. "But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was
turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them." sic therefore God was turned to be their enemy, and God fought against them. It is not saying that another being fought them, it's saying God fought them. "the spirit of God" is exactly that, God's essence. Notice there is no "Father" in the Old Testament. There is God, and when he acts in the world that is His spirit. But the Hebrews did not recognize this as two separate entities, they were the same being. Completely different from Jesus. "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" Notice here that it doesn't say equality with the Father, but equality with God. Even Paul was not saying Jesus WAS God. He was divine, but separate.

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Actually, the Bible teaches that God is not just a singular entity.

The "Shema" Verse

For most Jewish people, the "Shema" is the foundational verse for the concept of a monotheistic God. It is the very heart of Judaism, and serves to confirm, in the Jewish mind, that there cannot be anything other than one God. The Shema verse is found in Deuteronomy 6:4, and says:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."

In Hebrew it reads, "Shema Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai Echad." The word Shema is the first Hebrew word in the passage and means "hear." At first glance this seems to support the Jewish concept of a monotheistic God. However, a careful examination of Deuteronomy 6:4 actually establishes, rather than refutes, the plurality of God. In fact, the Shema verse actually presents one of the strongest arguments for a triune God in the entire Bible. Here's why. The last word of the Shema verse is echad, which is translated into English as the word "one." This is what is known as a compound-unity noun - that is to say, a noun which demonstrates oneness or unity, but at the same time contains two or more entities. A number of scriptural examples will help make the point.

Genesis 2:24, speaking of the union of Adam and Eve, reads: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become ONE flesh." Here, the Hebrew word that is used for "one" (one flesh) is the same word for "one" that is found in the Shema verse - echad. It clearly speaks of the unity of more than one person into a united, or singular, entity.

In Genesis 1:5, Moses used this same word when he described the first day of creation: "And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." This "one" day, or "first" day is the Hebrew word echad. The one day referred to was comprised of both light and darkness - evening and morning.

And still another example is found in Jeremiah 32, verses 38-39 which reads, "And they shall be my people, and I will be their God; And I will give THEM ONE HEART." Here, the many people are given "one" (echad) heart. A unity of two or more individuals into oneness.

Interestingly, however, there is another Hebrew word which signifies an absolute oneness, or singleness. That word is yachid. It is found in such scriptures as Genesis 22:2 (only son - one son), in Proverbs 4:3, in Judges 11:34, in Jeremiah 6:26, Amos 8:10, and in Zechariah 12:10 - "....and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son." So considering that the Old Testament is the inspired word of God, Jehovah had a choice of using a word that implies singularity (yachid), or plurality in oneness (echad). He chose echad to make his point, so that it might be understood there is a plurality in union.

Plurality in Personal Pronouns

Plurality in personal pronouns (such as "us" and "our") when used in reference to the Lord, lends additional documentary evidence for the plurality of God. A good case in point is Genesis 1:26:

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
and let him have dominion over the fist of the sea, and over the birds
of the air, and over the livestock, and over all the earth."

Here, we see a conversation that is taking place prior to the creation of man. Who is this person or persons with whom God is conversing? First, this 'person' or 'persons' is able to communicate with God in His own realm of timeless eternity. Because man had not yet been created, He was not speaking to someone of earthly intelligence, but someone in the heavenly, supernatural and eternal realm.

Secondly, this person or persons with whom God is communicating apparently has the same kind of creative ability as God ("Let us make"). This clearly implies a cooperative effort between God (Elohim - plural) and the person or person with whom God is speaking.

And finally, the person or persons with whom God is speaking is comparable, or identical, with God ("Let us make man in our image, after our likeness").

When confronted with this passage, skeptics often claim that God is speaking with angels. However, this explanation fails to address a number of problems. First, there is no indication found anywhere in the Bible that says angels can create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels were ever made in the image and likeness of God. And finally, there is no indication from scripture that mankind was ever made in the likeness of angels.

Just one more example. In Genesis chapter 11, God is looking down at man's attempt to build the Tower of Babel to make a name for themselves. In verse 7 God states:

"Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will
not understand one another."

Once more, the personal pronoun "us" is used as a reference to God. Note that in verse 11:5 it is "the Lord" that is referred to when "us" is later used ("The Lord came down to see the city").

Finally, ancient Jews / rabbis understood that God was a trinity. About halfway down in the following link you will find examples of this from ancient Jews.

Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries

tomkat364 said:

Even Paul was not saying Jesus WAS God.

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Paul confirmed the deity of Jesus. Examples in the link below.

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture « The Righter Report

From your sited list:
Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
I Peter 3:22 "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
Jude 25 "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." (NOT REFERENCING JESUS AT ALL)
James 2:1 "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."
I John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." The True God being referenced is the understanding of God brought by Jesus, not Jesus himself.

Those are the epistle chapters, and no where does it say "Jesus was God." That's a pretty important point to make if your religion is based on a trinity. However, nowhere in the Bible does the trinity appear, nowhere does it indicate that there was a belief in the trinity.

Logicman said:

The Deity of Jesus Christ

Theological scholar Kevin J. Conner lists 27 initial scriptural evidences demonstrating the deity of Christ:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture « The Righter Report

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Notice you're NOT dealing With the OP ... did you read it at all?

Or are you just gonna copy and paste irrelivent stuff?