Nadab and Abihu

brothern said:

... what.

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phattonez said:

Clearly this thread is not meant for atheists.

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brothern said:

Or any other Christian denomination of which I am aware?

Leviticus 9-10 instructs how to and how not to properly sacrifice butchered goats, cows and sheep to Yahweh. Nadab and Abihu did it incorrectly by using the incorrect incense, which I'm certain was some flagrant violation of Jewish law, and thus Yahweh murdered them on the spot.

... I have not yet heard of the Christian denomination that is carving up living cows and setting them on fire.

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phattonez said:

Do you take this into account when worshiping God? Is your church offering sacrifice to God in a way that pleases Him?

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Aquinas said:

Mortal sin occurs in two ways in the act of free-will.
In one way, when something evil is chosen—as man sins by choosing adultery, which is evil of itself. Such sin always comes of ignorance or error; otherwise what is evil would never be chosen as good. The adulterer errs in the particular, choosing this delight of an inordinate act as something good to be performed now, from the inclination of passion or of habit; even though he does not err in his universal judgment, but retains a right opinion in this respect. In this way there can be no sin in the angel; because there are no passions in the angels to fetter reason or intellect, as is manifest from what has been said above (q. 59, a. 4); nor, again, could any habit inclining to sin precede their first sin.
In another way, sin comes of free-will by choosing something good in itself, but not according to proper measure or rule; so that the defect which induces sin is only on the part of the choice which is not properly regulated, but not on the part of the thing chosen—as, for example, if one were to pray [which is a good thing], without heeding the order established by the Church [which is a bad thing]. Such a sin does not presuppose ignorance, but merely absence of consideration of the things which ought to be considered. In this way the angel sinned, by seeking his own good, from his own free-will, insubordinately to the rule of the divine will. (ST I, q. 63, a. 1, ad 4)

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C. S. Lewis said:

The modern habit of doing ceremonial things unceremoniously is no proof of humility; rather it proves the offender’s inability to forget himself in the rite, and his readiness to spoil for every one else the proper pleasure of ritual. (from A Preface to Paradise Lost, ch. 3)

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phattonez said:

The point is that God has established specific directions about how we are to worship Him. Do we take any violations of those directions seriously?

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phattonez said:

Leviticus 10: Now Nadab and Abi′hu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer, and put fire in it, and laid incense on it, and offered unholy fire before the Lord, such as he had not commanded them. 2 And fire came forth from the presence of the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. 3 Then Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the Lord has said, ‘I will show myself holy among those who are near me, and before all the people I will be glorified.’” And Aaron held his peace.

For offering sacrifice to the Lord in a way contrary to what God had commanded, God killed Nadab and Abihu. So the Lord is very clear about how He is to be worshiped and how sacrifice is to be offered.

Do you take this into account when worshiping God? Is your church offering sacrifice to God in a way that pleases Him?

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RGacky3 said:

I know where you're going here, and it's not very theologically sound.

Leviticus 10 is talking about the temple cult, or in this case the tabernacle cult, this was a sin offering .... (look at the previous Chapter), gaining the favor of Yahweh ...

This offering is going into the house of God offering sacrifice for sin, and/or the favor of God.

So God gave this job to the Levites who were to stay ritually pure, and be the only ones through which God recieved sacrifice, and it was ONLY the High Priest who was to do certain rituals.

When Jesus died the temply cult was finished, which is why, for example, early many Jewish Christians didn't take part in the Jewish cult EVEN THOUGH they kept torah, kosher, shabbat, prayers and so on. This was not an issue of just worshiping God the right way, it was an issue of how sacrifice was to be done, it was to be COMPLETELY pure, and only a Select Group, that was the point of Leviticus 10 ... continue Reading.

6 And Moses said to Aaron and to his sons Eleazar and Ithamar, “Do not dishevel your hair, and do not tear your vestments, or you will die and wrath will strike all the congregation; but your kindred, the whole house of Israel, may mourn the burning that the Lord has sent. 7 You shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting, or you will die; for the anointing oil of the Lord is on you.” And they did as Moses had ordered.

8 And the Lord spoke to Aaron: 9 Drink no wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons, when you enter the tent of meeting, that you may not die; it is a statute forever throughout your generations. 10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean; 11 and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them through Moses.

Now the ONLY way that you can apply this to Christianity is if you believe that Jesus sin did not FULLY atone for all sin for all time, period.

Which brings us to the Catholic position .... the Priest is the "alter Christos" and the communion is actual atonement, at least in classical Catholicism, I'm not sure about post Vatican 2, I'm pretty confused about post Vatican 2 theology, but classically, the catholic communion is a sacrifice for sin, it's Christs body and blood, but it really is a continual atonement, rather than once for all time. Now if you believe that, then sure Leviticus 10 applies, but if you don't, and you believe in Pauls' theology, then the atonement is done, there is no more sacrifice, and thus no need for the priesthood or ritual purity or any of the stuff that goes along With sacrifice.

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John 4:23 But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.

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RGacky3 said:

I know where you're going here, and it's not very theologically sound.

Leviticus 10 is talking about the temple cult, or in this case the tabernacle cult, this was a sin offering .... (look at the previous Chapter), gaining the favor of Yahweh ...

This offering is going into the house of God offering sacrifice for sin, and/or the favor of God.

So God gave this job to the Levites who were to stay ritually pure, and be the only ones through which God recieved sacrifice, and it was ONLY the High Priest who was to do certain rituals.

When Jesus died the temply cult was finished, which is why, for example, early many Jewish Christians didn't take part in the Jewish cult EVEN THOUGH they kept torah, kosher, shabbat, prayers and so on. This was not an issue of just worshiping God the right way, it was an issue of how sacrifice was to be done, it was to be COMPLETELY pure, and only a Select Group, that was the point of Leviticus 10 ... continue Reading.

6 And Moses said to Aaron and to his sons Eleazar and Ithamar, “Do not dishevel your hair, and do not tear your vestments, or you will die and wrath will strike all the congregation; but your kindred, the whole house of Israel, may mourn the burning that the Lord has sent. 7 You shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting, or you will die; for the anointing oil of the Lord is on you.” And they did as Moses had ordered.

8 And the Lord spoke to Aaron: 9 Drink no wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons, when you enter the tent of meeting, that you may not die; it is a statute forever throughout your generations. 10 You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean; 11 and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them through Moses.

Now the ONLY way that you can apply this to Christianity is if you believe that Jesus sin did not FULLY atone for all sin for all time, period.

Which brings us to the Catholic position .... the Priest is the "alter Christos" and the communion is actual atonement, at least in classical Catholicism, I'm not sure about post Vatican 2, I'm pretty confused about post Vatican 2 theology, but classically, the catholic communion is a sacrifice for sin, it's Christs body and blood, but it really is a continual atonement, rather than once for all time. Now if you believe that, then sure Leviticus 10 applies, but if you don't, and you believe in Pauls' theology, then the atonement is done, there is no more sacrifice, and thus no need for the priesthood or ritual purity or any of the stuff that goes along With sacrifice.

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digsbe said:

With the fulfilled law we are to worship God with our hearts and spirit. There aren't really any ritualistic rules or regulations to be followed.

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phattonez said:

The sacrifice of the Mass is the representation of the Sacrifice of Calvary. It is not a new sacrifice. There is only one sacrifice, and it is represented during the Mass.

And I would like you to tell me how I should interpret this interesting little passage from Hebrews:

"We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat."

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RGacky3 said:

Ic so the mass is just a representation of the sacrifice that's already done right?

As far as that passage in Hebrews ... I don't know, I'll have to look at it more carefully.

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Catechism of the Catholic Church said:

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.184 In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

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