Jesus Is God

Jesus is God.

We have discussed about this numerous times in various threads, but I don't know if there is a specific thread devoted to this. I have to bring this issue up again due to my response at another subject (which is not related to this one), because I'm not sure if this evidence had been brought up.

I quoted a Bible verse, and it occurred to me that it is another evidence - without a doubt - that shows Jesus and God are One and the Same.



John 20

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”


26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Thomas referred to Jesus as "my Lord and my God!" If Jesus is not God, Jesus would've undoubtedly corrected Him.

The response of Jesus is also interesting. Instead of correcting Thomas, He said: "Because you have seen me, you have believed." His response could also be a double entendre.

tosca1 said:

Jesus is God.

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:doh
Matthew 27:46
Mark 15:34

Excon said:

:doh
Matthew 27:46
Mark 15:34

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What about them?

He was speaking as The Son.

tosca1 said:

What about them?

He was speaking as The Son.

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:doh
It doesn't say that.
Regardless, this sub-forum is not the proper place place for this discussion.

The crucial point in John 20 is the fact that Jesus did not correct Thomas' reference to Jesus as not only God....but also as, "My God."

Thomas was identifying, worshipping and glorifying Jesus as the One and Only God.

Excon said:

:doh
It doesn't say that.

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Who did Jesus say He is? Didn't He refer to Himself as the Son, and He refers to God as the father?

Who did God say Jesus is? Didn't He call Jesus His only begotten Son? To whom He is well-pleased?
:doh

tosca1 said:

Who did Jesus say He is?

Who did God say Jesus is? :doh

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:doh
John 3:16

Like I said, this sub-forum is not the proper place place for this discussion.

Excon said:

Like I said, this sub-forum is not the proper place place for this discussion.

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What sub-forum are you talking about?

I am on Religion, and I'm talking about a particular Bible verse!

tosca1 said:

What sub-forum are you talking about?

I am on Religion, and I'm talking about a particular Bible verse!

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Seems to be the appropriate sub forum to me. Jesus could not be the only begotten Son of God and not be Devine Himself.

Not to take any street cred from JC, but creating the Universe was not His work. So Jesus is not God in my opinion.

X Factor said:

Seems to be the appropriate sub forum to me.

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It really isn't, as the premiss can not fully be challenged in this forum.

X Factor said:

Jesus could not be the only begotten Son of God and not be Devine Himself.

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:doh
Coming from G_d does not make one G_d them self.

serato said:

Not to take any street cred from JC, but creating the Universe was not His work. So Jesus is not God in my opinion.

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That's the Unitarian point of view. Trinitarians believe that the three, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, are one.
It's all just slightly less significant than the angels on the pinhead question.

Can the critics please address the specific point being shown based on John 20.
Let me repeat them.



John 20

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”


26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

--------------------------------

1. By exclaiming, "My Lord and My God," Thomas identified Jesus as not only his Lord, but also the ONE and ONLY GOD.

IF Jesus is not God, Thomas blatantly broke the most important Commandment of all. And Jesus abetted that sin which He Himself preached about.



2. Jesus response to Thomas' exclamation, "My Lord and My God" is revealing in itself.
Instead of correcting Thomas, He said..."“Because you have seen me, you have believed;.."

Was Jesus referring only to the doubt of Thomas regarding His rising up from the dead.....or was it a response to Thomas' exclamation......or both?

It has to be a direct response from Thomas' exclamation, or both.

If Thomas was wrong in his assumption, Jesus would've corrected him, otherwise, Jesus was accepting the accolade of being mistaken for the One and Only God. That means Jesus was taking for Himself the recognition that ought to be for God alone, .....and/or that would mean there are more than one God.

Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God. This is the first time that any of the disciples had ever drawn this lofty conclusion of love and reason.
They had called him "the Son of God," "the Lord," as a Being of quite immeasurable claims; and John, in the prologue, after years of meditation, declared that "the Logos which was God" and "with God," and the Creator of all things, and "the Light and Life," had "become flesh," and flashed forth" the glory of the only begotten Son," even in his earthly life; but it was reserved for the most depressed and skeptical mind of them all, the honest doubter, the man who needed immediate and irresistible evidence, infallible proofs, triumphant, invincible demonstrations - it was reserved for Thomas to say TO HIM, and to say unrebuked, uncondemned, by the risen Lord," MY LORD AND MY GOD!"

Herein is condensed into one burning utterance from the worried heart of humanity the slowly gathering conclusion which had been steadily inwrought in the mind of his disciples by all the teachings of the Savior. It was at last spontaneous and exultant. These words are the climax of the entire Gospel. Every narrative points on to this unchallenged utterance.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

From the wedding at Cana to the raising of Lazarus, from the testimony of the Baptist to the awful tones of intercessory prayer, every discourse, every miracle, points on to this superlative conclusion, not breathed in loving accents by the enthusiastic Mary, not sounded forth by the rock-like apostle, not whispered in awestruck affection by the beloved disciple, but wrung from the broken heart of the man who had said, "Let us go, that we may die with him;" of him who cried, "We know not whither thou goest: how can we know the way?" of him who had said, "Unless I see the print of the nails, I will not believe."

It is not long before it is notorious that St. Paul spoke of him as "God blessed forever," called him the" Image of the invisible God," as endowed with "the Name that is above every name," as "set down on the right hand of the majesty on high;" that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews called him the "express Image of the Father's substance," and "the Effulgence of the Father's glory."

The earliest testimonies of heathendom confess that Christians sang hymns to Christ as to God (Pliny, 'Letter to Trajan')! but this was the hour of the great confession; this was the birth-cry of Christendom; this was the epoch-making scene, which guided the pen of John from the prologue to the close of the Gospel Thus Thomas doubted that the Church might believe.

Thomas did indeed die with his Master, that he might lead a multitude of the dead from their hopelessness and unrest to the resurrection-life. He received a full and all-sufficing evidence of the supernatural and Divine life, and eighteen hundred years of faith have blessed God for the victory which Thomas gained over his despondency, and for the climacteric force with which St. John tells us of it.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Quite interestingly, see this exchange between Jesus and Thomas,



John 14

Jesus the Way to the Father

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him..




If you really know me, you will know my Father as well.

From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

I am curious about Thomas....


Thomas is also named Didymus.

From the circumstance that in the lists of the apostles he is always mentioned along with Matthew, who was the son of Alphaeus (Mark 3:18), and that these two are always followed by James, who was also the son of Alphaeus, it has been supposed that these three, Matthew, Thomas, and James, were brothers.

All that we know of him is derived from the Gospel of St. John; and this amounts to three traits, which, however, so exactly agree together that, slight as they are they place his character before us with a precision which belongs to no other of the twelve apostles except Peter, John and Judas Iscariot.

This character is that of a man slow to believe, seeing all the difficulties of a case, subject to despondency, viewing things on the darker side, yet full of ardent love of his Master. The latter trait was shown in his speech when our Lord determined to face the dangers that awaited him in Judea on his journey to Bethany.

Thomas said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him." (John 11:16)

His unbelief appeared in his question during the Last Supper: "Thomas saith unto him Lord we know not whither thou goest, and how can we: know the way?" (John 14:5) It was the prosaic, incredulous doubt as to moving a step in the unseen future, and yet an eager inquiry as to how this step was to be taken.


The first-named trait was seen after the resurrection. He was absent -- possibly by accident, perhaps characteristically -- from the first assembly when Jesus had appeared. The others told him what they had seen. He broke forth into an exclamation, the terms of which convey to us at once the vehemence of his doubt, and at the same time the vivid picture that his mind retained of his Master’s form as he had last seen him lifeless on the cross. (John 20:25)

On the eighth day he was with them st their gathering, perhaps in expectation of a recurrence of the visit of the previous week; and Jesus stood among them. He uttered the same salutation, "Peace be unto you;" and then turning to Thomas, as if this had been the special object of his appearance, uttered the words which convey as strongly the sense of condemnation and tender reproof as those of Thomas had shown the sense of hesitation and doubt.

The effect on him was immediate.

The conviction produced by the removal of his doubt became deeper and stronger than that of any of the other apostles. The words in which he expressed his belief contain a far higher assertion of his Master’s divine nature than is contained in any other expression used by apostolic lips -- "My Lord and my God."

The answer of our Lord sums up the moral of the whole narrative: "Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen me, and yet have-believed." (John 20:29)

In the New Testament we hear of Thomas only twice again, once on the Sea of Galilee with the seven disciples, where he is ranked next after Peter, (John 21:2) and again in the assemblage of the apostles after the ascension. (Acts 1:13)

The earlier traditions, as believed in the fourth century, represent him as preaching in Parthia or Persia, and as finally buried at Edessa.

The later traditions carry him farther east. His martyrdom whether in Persia or India, is said to have been occasioned by a lance, and is commemorated by the Latin Church on December 21 the Greek Church on October 6, and by the Indians on July 1.


Bible Commentary Guide on THOMAS the apostle from biblereferenceguide.com

Excon said:

:doh
Coming from G_d does not make one G_d them self.

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serato said:

Not to take any street cred from JC, but creating the Universe was not His work. So Jesus is not God in my opinion.

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If God can create the world....He can do ANYTHING! He can even be a million different people all at once.


Now both of you get in the game, and try harder to focus on the particular John 20 issue brought forth in this discussion. You need to read the additional supporting posts.... and try to catch up.

tosca1 said:

If God can create the world....He can do ANYTHING! He can even be a million different people all at once.
Now both of you get in the game, and try harder to focus on the particular John 20 issue brought forth in this discussion. You need to read the additional supporting posts.... and try to catch up.

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Your argument from John 20 is both sound and reasonable Tosca. In John 1 we also see that: "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
This would be a very difficult statement to understand if Christ were a created being. It would imply that He was created through himself.

I think that because he was at one point born as a man in the flesh the understanding of his true nature is confused. It is a very difficult thing for our minds to wrestle with.

I am having a very interesting discussion with RGacky on this matter in another thread.

tosca1 said:

If God can create the world....He can do ANYTHING! He can even be a million different people all at once.


Now both of you get in the game, and try harder to focus on the particular John 20 issue brought forth in this discussion. You need to read the additional supporting posts.... and try to catch up.

Click to expand...

LoL, you’ll never need a convincing in me to begin believing in the Trinity of three to which all good things come. Besides, I live in a town named Trinity so that alone should be all the qualifications necessary to suggest to Grand Mal to never use the word ghost when the Holy Spirit so bright and blue, rings nicer. It was with this witness that was the beginning to the changing of my life as there it was just two feet hovering above my chest and it lit the room as if the sun decided to sleep over. And radiating with empathy would be high above the trees if buried deep a mile below because nothing can diminish or cascade its love.

So that’s one to know and two must be shown for The Truth can never be hidden or wrong and with that right there, this is the answer to John 20 because Jesus cannot tell or listen a lie. For a lie is to not speak a truth for The Truth, it's the walls, the floors, the ceiling the roof, the roof to disappear with three breaths I take and I demise, and then I awaken to say: I know The Truth. And its color is milky white and alive and circles the outskirts of the universe. Nothing, no event, no thought can escape it. In Jesus was its reincarnation.

And that’s two to know that makes three if seen as life as circular, as is everything in life concentric to one another. It’s one plus one that equals three and if you can’t see this it’s because you’re not joining them together. Do this and you’ll see that God is, never left out, always in the middle of everything.

Ugh, so yeah… this is my crazy way of agreeing with you. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit are the same but also exist separately. It’s like you have a consciousness, a sub-consciousness and a super consciousness. It’s like everything is connected in subtleness, but always with a divine concentricity that with the three parts to our mind, can this be drawn larger and back to your spark of life, your spirit is your soul tied to, is your ego, is you too existing in three’s.

Life – it takes three to make a thing go right, right down to the atom.

Now if we can just get Excon to feel comfortable in being able to type The Fathers name, God, a three letter word no doubt that will never be seen as blasphemous, then we’d be making some progress.

I couldn't figure this out about the Father, Son and Spirit for a long time, until I began to try and understand the nature of God. This statement is all opinion and by no means confirmed.

Though Jesus is the personality of God and the original head (ancient of days), he does not consider Himself, all of God, since that would include His creation and people. And his people, once passed from earth, share His throne in heaven as part of the Godhead. As the Son, He is our equal, and as the Father, He is all of us, with the spirit and creation combined.

And, He can sit on a throne in heaven as a father and exist on earth in flesh simultaneously, because He is omnipresent and omniscient, being everywhere and in everyone all at once thru the spirit. Though, He will always be the King of Angels, first born of the spirit, made identical in the spirits image- in heaven we are all as one, friends and equals, full of His knowledge.

Even on earth, Jesus had the power of the Lord and didn't have to suffer and die, but He didn't want to rule over us or lead without permission. He performed miracles, while preaching quietly about faith, peace and compassion. And he allowed the people to either accept Him or crucify Him to show He was an equal, and not take away their free will.

I don't think there is some unknown father figure sitting on the throne in heaven but rather Jesus, whom has always had the eternal power of life and death. And thru whom we must pass in order to enter paradise. I believe He wanted a race of people, godlike characters similar to Himself as friends, equals and companions, not slaves.

Bible Scholar Kevin J. Conner lists 27 initial scriptural evidences demonstrating the deity of Christ:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

Jesus Must be Jehovah

Jesus Must be Jehovah « The Righter Report

Divine Names and Titles of Jesus

http://www.greatcom.org/resources/jesus_and_his_diety/chap02/default.htm

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture « The Righter Report

tosca1 said:

If God can create the world....He can do ANYTHING! He can even be a million different people all at once.

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:doh:lamo:doh
And?
That does not in any way shape or form mean that Jesus is G_d.
Or do you not understand that?

tosca1 said:

Now both of you get in the game, and try harder to focus on the particular John 20 issue brought forth in this discussion.

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Don't need to as we already know what Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34 & John 3:16 says.

This belief does not reconcile with the 1st Commandment.

Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post

If God can create the world....He can do ANYTHING! He can even be a million different people all at once.

Excon said:

:doh:lamo:doh
And?
That does not in any way shape or form mean that Jesus is G_d.
Or do you not understand that?

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DUH indeed. :lol:

You're missing the whole point.

What makes you think God didn't come us Jesus?

Relate my conclusion with John 20 and John 14.

Don't need to as we already know what Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34 & John 3:16 says.

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:roll: ...so he repeats a non-issue.

AND? What about them, I repeat too.



Okay, since you're obviously struggling with the concept, let me re-phrase that:

IF GOD CAN BE A MILLION PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME HE IS ALSO GOD - and I don't think you deny that thus you replied with an "and?"......

....then that means, HE CAN ALSO BE "THE SON" at the same time that He is the Father.




I hope that's clear an explanation enough for you. I know, it's hard to wrap heads around that if one doesn't have any concept at all as to what a SUPREME GOD is.


You better read the arguments and deal with them. You're totally missing the whole point - you keep bringing up rebuts that don't rebut at all.

I'll be ignoring your silly arguments if you keep ignoring the presented argument. Learn to....


FOCUS.


It takes practice. I'm helping you by having you start practicing here on this thread.