• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The Tribulation

ludin said:
so now we change the definition.
again you are wrong but that is beside the point. of course i am talking to someone that doesn't think Jesus has always been even though he states that he is the alpha and the omega.

so for you say that 0 christians worship the trinity you are wrong in that as well. however again i feel for you that you believe only 144k christians will make it into heaven.
not much hope because that number is already in heaven.

so what are you going to do since you can't get into heaven?
Click to expand...



Please show us how many mortals have been bought from the earth--rev 14:3
 
kjw47 said:
Please show us how many mortals have been bought from the earth--rev 14:3
Click to expand...

Umm when they die. In fact I forget you leave out all of the old testsment saints that were risen with Christ.

so nope no more room in heaven according to the JW. what are you going to do now that heaven is full?
you still haven't answered the question?

heaven is full the 144k has been filled a long time ago. so what are you going to do? you can't get in.
 
ludin said:
Umm when they die. In fact I forget you leave out all of the old testsment saints that were risen with Christ.

so nope no more room in heaven according to the JW. what are you going to do now that heaven is full?
you still haven't answered the question?

heaven is full the 144k has been filled a long time ago. so what are you going to do? you can't get in.
Click to expand...


No one who died before Jesus died go to heaven. There are still some on earth--there had to be in these last days or this wouldn't occur-Daniel 12:4---
My hope is to live forever on a paradise earth with a mate. That is what Jesus promised to the great crowd of other sheep which no man can number.
Eden translates-Paradise--garden of Paradise( Eden) ---The new earth will be transformed into a garden of Paradise--no more satan influences once satan and his demons are cast into the lake of fire.( destruction)-- All united as one human family, as one with Jehovah God and Jesus in purpose.
 
kjw47 said:
No one who died before Jesus died go to heaven. There are still some on earth--there had to be in these last days or this wouldn't occur-Daniel 12:4---
My hope is to live forever on a paradise earth with a mate. That is what Jesus promised to the great crowd of other sheep which no man can number.
Eden translates-Paradise--garden of Paradise( Eden) ---The new earth will be transformed into a garden of Paradise--no more satan influences once satan and his demons are cast into the lake of fire.( destruction)-- All united as one human family, as one with Jehovah God and Jesus in purpose.
Click to expand...

Evil always finds a way to endure. Good and evil are in eternal balance.
 
kjw47 said:
Please show us how many mortals have been bought from the earth--rev 14:3
Click to expand...

What we know through Revelation is that there are martyrs in heaven!
 
tosca1 said:
What we know through Revelation is that there are martyrs in heaven!
Click to expand...

Doesn't it say-- they are under the throne? billions of humans have died. Showing it is symbolism-- they await the resurrection.
 
kjw47 said:
Doesn't it say-- they are under the throne? billions of humans have died. Showing it is symbolism-- they await the resurrection.
Click to expand...


That they are under the throne is a symbolism - but the description of who these souls are, is not.


Rev 6
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.


These are the martyrs. They were SLAIN.

Murdered. For their faith.
 
Last edited:
kjw47 said:
billions of humans have died. Showing it is symbolism-- they await the resurrection.
Click to expand...

Nope. The description how these souls died was specific. They were slain!
 
tosca1 said:
Sorry RapidAlpaca, but FYI.....

.....the Revelation is written for those who believe that they may have an inkling what to expect or how things are supposed to unfold. It only makes sense, no?
Click to expand...

Actually, no. It doesn't make any sense. Since it's an exact description of how events will play out, I'm left with two questions. 1) Why won't the antichrist and all the other bad guys read it and change their plans so that maybe they can win, thus not following the story? 2) If they can't do this, and are bound to follow it, how are they still bad guys and not just slaves without free will? And isn't it then incredibly evil to punish them afterwards? In fact, since god is supposed to be all-powerful, rebellion against him is completely impossible, and the bad guys should know that. So why bother in the first place?
 
Paschendale said:
Actually, no. It doesn't make any sense. Since it's an exact description of how events will play out, I'm left with two questions. 1) Why won't the antichrist and all the other bad guys read it and change their plans so that maybe they can win, thus not following the story? 2) If they can't do this, and are bound to follow it, how are they still bad guys and not just slaves without free will? And isn't it then incredibly evil to punish them afterwards? In fact, since god is supposed to be all-powerful, rebellion against him is completely impossible, and the bad guys should know that. So why bother in the first place?
Click to expand...

1. The end out come is the end outcome. That won't stop them from trying.
2. They do it for the same reason that they do anything they can't stand the light and glory of God and wish to destroy it even though they can't.
there is no going back the line has been crossed.

there is no redemption for angels they have no souls to redeem. angels were not given free will.
they know they have no chance but they will try anyway.
 
ludin said:
1. The end out come is the end outcome. That won't stop them from trying.
2. They do it for the same reason that they do anything they can't stand the light and glory of God and wish to destroy it even though they can't.
there is no going back the line has been crossed.

there is no redemption for angels they have no souls to redeem. angels were not given free will.
they know they have no chance but they will try anyway.
Click to expand...

So it sounds like the antichrist and his people are either insane or have no free will. Since they certainly didn't exist when Revelations was written, and would almost certainly be literate to read it before doing anything, they know the outcome. So how can someone who is simply forced to do things by an all-powerful puppetmaster be evil? It's like condemning Judas. It makes no sense. Without his actions, there's no crucifixion and no redemption of everyone's souls. If your "bad guys" are just playing their predetermined parts, then they're not bad. And then there's no free will. The antichrist is a human. The only angel in Revelations is Lucifer, and he only shows up for the last chapter. It's a story about humans making human choices. But apparently people don't actually get to make those choices, they're already made for them.

And when you say "they know they have no chance but they will try anyway", I have a hard time not imagining heroic underdogs. That's the sort of thing that Luke Skywalker and Han Solo say about opposing the Empire. It's what Frodo and Sam say about taking the ring to Mt. Doom.

Obviously, I'm evaluating this from a literary standpoint, but if you think this is actually going to happen, and these will be real people, then you have to deal with the theological implications. The prophecy, by its very existence, either means that it is self-defeating and the people who read it will change the story, or it means that they can't change the story despite reading it and thus have no free will. Your answers lean towards the second option. And since the story of Revelations involves most of the human race choosing to live in the antichrist's worldwide empire, none of us apparently have free will, either. But we deserve horrific punishment for choices we weren't allowed to make in the first place. How do you reconcile this problem?
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Evil always finds a way to endure. Good and evil are in eternal balance.
Click to expand...

I think evil is merely the inability of not having all knowledge and the choice of having a bad attitude, being unappreciative and stubborn. We all make mistakes, and most of us learn from them.
 
tosca1 said:
Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God,

and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Could it be that we'll be under the power of the Islamists during the Tribulation?
Click to expand...

A selective literal Reading of revelation is very very Dangerous, and when I say selective, I don't mean selecting based on literary analysis, I mean selecting based on a theological point you want to make.

We know that Revelation is a symbolic allegorical text, and we should be very careful trying to read literal hints in the text and rather try and find out the overall theological concept John of Patmos is making.
 
Paschendale said:
So it sounds like the antichrist and his people are either insane or have no free will. Since they certainly didn't exist when Revelations was written, and would almost certainly be literate to read it before doing anything, they know the outcome. So how can someone who is simply forced to do things by an all-powerful puppetmaster be evil? It's like condemning Judas. It makes no sense. Without his actions, there's no crucifixion and no redemption of everyone's souls. If your "bad guys" are just playing their predetermined parts, then they're not bad. And then there's no free will. The antichrist is a human. The only angel in Revelations is Lucifer, and he only shows up for the last chapter. It's a story about humans making human choices. But apparently people don't actually get to make those choices, they're already made for them.
Click to expand...

i would say both. they are insane litterly and they have no free will. angels were created without free will. their sole purpose was to worship God.
yes they did. it is catagorized in the book is Isaish and one other book about the fall of Lucifer.

Satan is doing what he is doing out of his hatred for his creator. Some suspect that lucifer was given some choice of free will although minor and he was above to convience 1/3rd of his follow angels to follow him.

if it wasn't judas then it would have been someone else. yet prophecy had to be fulfilled.
nope the choices aren't made future knowledge of what the choice is going to be as long as it isn't disclosed to the person making it allows for choices.

And when you say "they know they have no chance but they will try anyway", I have a hard time not imagining heroic underdogs. That's the sort of thing that Luke Skywalker and Han Solo say about opposing the Empire. It's what Frodo and Sam say about taking the ring to Mt. Doom.
Click to expand...

they have no way to be redeemed. they only choice is to fight.

Obviously, I'm evaluating this from a literary standpoint, but if you think this is actually going to happen, and these will be real people, then you have to deal with the theological implications. The prophecy, by its very existence, either means that it is self-defeating and the people who read it will change the story, or it means that they can't change the story despite reading it and thus have no free will. Your answers lean towards the second option. And since the story of Revelations involves most of the human race choosing to live in the antichrist's worldwide empire, none of us apparently have free will, either. But we deserve horrific punishment for choices we weren't allowed to make in the first place. How do you reconcile this problem?
Click to expand...

How can they change the story? they can't beat God no matter what they do.
sure you do. you have the choice to repent of your sins and ask Christ to forgive your sins and turn your life over to Him.

that is a choice. at the same time you have the choice to ignore what he said that he would do.
that is a choice.

God knowing your choice and what you are going to choose doesn't mean you don't get one. you still have a choice to either reject Christ and who he said he was and what he came to do, or accept Christ as your savior. that you are a sinful person in need of salvation. Allow the Holy Spirit to enter your heart and ask for the forgivness of sin.

For he is failful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us of all unrightousness.
that is a choice.

however few people will make that choice and it is an easy choice to make. they make this choice for a number of reasons.
 
I heard this quote recently "Satan is doing God's work without even realizing it."

Satan knows what Revelations says. So why would he continue down that route if he is going to be the loser in the end? God created Satan, Lucifer originally. And God knows exactly what Lucifer will do. And I like to think of Lucifer as a smart and cunning being but also power hungry, stubborn and selfish (obviously, that's why he's not in Heaven anymore) And since Lucifer is like this, I think he wants to prove God wrong. I think Lucifer continues down the same path that will lead to Revelations revelation because he thinks, or even KNOWS, in his mind that the outcome will be different. And if he can succeed in changing the outcome then he will basically be God at that point. It a second chance on top of revenge.

Thoughts?
 
kjw47 said:
Doesn't it say-- they are under the throne? billions of humans have died. Showing it is symbolism-- they await the resurrection.
Click to expand...

Do you believe Mormons get their own planet when they die and are exalted, and that God lives on the planet Kolob?
 
Logicman said:
Do you believe Mormons get their own planet when they die and are exalted, and that God lives on the planet Kolob?
Click to expand...


Not in real life.
 
Originally Posted by Logicman

Do you believe Mormons get their own planet when they die and are exalted, and that God lives on the planet Kolob?
Click to expand...

kjw47 said:
Not in real life.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean. That answer doesn't appear to address what happens when Mormons die. And where they believe God lives. Could you please address my question in a little better detail?
 
Logicman said:
Do you believe Mormons get their own planet when they die and are exalted, and that God lives on the planet Kolob?
Click to expand...

becareful man you will be label anti-mormon and a hater as well.
 
Paschendale said:
Actually, no. It doesn't make any sense. Since it's an exact description of how events will play out, I'm left with two questions. 1) Why won't the antichrist and all the other bad guys read it and change their plans so that maybe they can win, thus not following the story? 2) If they can't do this, and are bound to follow it, how are they still bad guys and not just slaves without free will? And isn't it then incredibly evil to punish them afterwards? In fact, since god is supposed to be all-powerful, rebellion against him is completely impossible, and the bad guys should know that. So why bother in the first place?
Click to expand...


Everything will play out as God intend it to.
 
Paschendale said:
So it sounds like the antichrist and his people are either insane or have no free will. Since they certainly didn't exist when Revelations was written, and would almost certainly be literate to read it before doing anything, they know the outcome. So how can someone who is simply forced to do things by an all-powerful puppetmaster be evil? It's like condemning Judas. It makes no sense. Without his actions, there's no crucifixion and no redemption of everyone's souls. If your "bad guys" are just playing their predetermined parts, then they're not bad. And then there's no free will. The antichrist is a human. The only angel in Revelations is Lucifer, and he only shows up for the last chapter. It's a story about humans making human choices. But apparently people don't actually get to make those choices, they're already made for them.

And when you say "they know they have no chance but they will try anyway", I have a hard time not imagining heroic underdogs. That's the sort of thing that Luke Skywalker and Han Solo say about opposing the Empire. It's what Frodo and Sam say about taking the ring to Mt. Doom.

Obviously, I'm evaluating this from a literary standpoint, but if you think this is actually going to happen, and these will be real people, then you have to deal with the theological implications. The prophecy, by its very existence, either means that it is self-defeating and the people who read it will change the story, or it means that they can't change the story despite reading it and thus have no free will. Your answers lean towards the second option. And since the story of Revelations involves most of the human race choosing to live in the antichrist's worldwide empire, none of us apparently have free will, either. But we deserve horrific punishment for choices we weren't allowed to make in the first place. How do you reconcile this problem?
Click to expand...

See....that's why it makes sense that the Revelation is written for those who believe.
 
tosca1 said:
Everything will play out as God intend it to.
Click to expand...

So then people have no choice. What about this free will thing?

tosca1 said:
See....that's why it makes sense that the Revelation is written for those who believe.
Click to expand...

But the bad guys who are intentionally opposing a god that they believe in DO believe. And can read. And so either god is forcing them to play a role they don't want to play, or they'd have to be monumentally stupid not to try something other than what's written in Revelations. It is self-defeating. And it violates a lot of your existing principles. Most notably the aforementioned free will.
 
ludin said:
becareful man you will be label anti-mormon and a hater as well.
Click to expand...

Ha ha! No, I have a friend who dated a devout Mormon and that's the spiel he was giving her. So I wasn't trying to be hateful but was just being curious if that's what kwj47 believed.
 
Logicman said:
Not sure what you mean. That answer doesn't appear to address what happens when Mormons die. And where they believe God lives. Could you please address my question in a little better detail?
Click to expand...


I am not a Mormon. The same thing happens to all when they die---ashes to ashes--dust to dust.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom