Fellow Christians - What is your take on the Old Testament?

polisciguy · Sep 2, 2014

The question is in the title, of course, but I'll give some context here. As a child and young adult, I was raised in what was technically a non-denominational church, but the theology was most certainly Baptist in nature. For a long time, and for obvious reasons, that's what I considered myself and didn't think much of it. But, as a lot of us do as we get older, I began to question the things I was taught and the things I believed. Ultimately, I spent a lot of time praying, meditating, and studying in the hopes of finding out whether or not I was inclined to believe differently than my parents/upbringing had suggested, and if so, how much differently. Coupled with my internal studies, prayer, and mediation was a great deal of time spent studying comparative religion and as much theology (from across the board - Catholicism and the seemingly infinite number of Protestant theologians and philosophers that emerged later on) as I could/could understand well, and I finally found myself comfortable and confident in my faith.

Along the way, I noticed a running theme of reverence, but disregard for the Old Testament in practical terms. I realized that the Old Testament was kept around during the birth of Christianity largely due to the prophecy it laid out, but beyond that, it didn't seem, in practical terms, to have much functional value. I don't want to seem as if I am diminishing the value the OT offers. But even in my youth, the OT was only occasionally taught/preached from (aside from the famous allegories of Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, etc., as well as the Ten Commandments), and when it was, it was usually about prophecy or was from Psalms and other, more poetic and esoteric books. Otherwise, it seemed to be disregarded. And, at least from my personal endeavors into studying Christianity, this seems to be the case, speaking in general terms of course, across the board. But I did notice that when I went to discuss this with some fellow Christians, they seemed put off by it - like I was attacking it or something. I certainly didn't mean to come off that way, and hope I don't here.

So, TL, DL: What is your take on the Old Testament? Do you view it as merely the prophetic justification of the New Testament and therefore ultimately replaced by it? Or is it still core to your particular denomination, sect, etc. of Christianity? I certainly don't want to undersell its utility, but what do you feel is its practical purpose in the faith, if you believe it has one?

lizzie · Sep 2, 2014

I am not a Christian now, but I was raised very devoutly to be one. I couldn't accept everything I was told either, so I went on my own search for the truth, and that has been a lifelong endeavor.

My take on the OT is that it is of interest only for the historical context it provides, and really doesn't have much of anything to do with the actual doctrine of Christianity, or the things that Jesus reportedly taught. In the atmosphere I was raised in, Christianity was based on faith, and not on works, and the things that Jesus taught were not laws, as we see in the OT, but were more along the lines of philosophy, or the way to live one's life.

polisciguy · Sep 2, 2014

lizzie said:
I am not a Christian now, but I was raised very devoutly to be one. I couldn't accept everything I was told either, so I went on my own search for the truth, and that has been a lifelong endeavor.

My take on the OT is that it is of interest only for the historical context it provides, and really doesn't have much of anything to do with the actual doctrine of Christianity, or the things that Jesus reportedly taught. In the atmosphere I was raised in, Christianity was based on faith, and not on works, and the things that Jesus taught were not laws, as we see in the OT, but were more along the lines of philosophy, or the way to live one's life.

Thanks for your input! Your take is quite similar to mine, and it appears to be a running theme for most modern Christians, from what I can tell.

Fearandloathing · Sep 2, 2014

polisciguy said:
The question is in the title, of course, but I'll give some context here. As a child and young adult, I was raised in what was technically a non-denominational church, but the theology was most certainly Baptist in nature. For a long time, and for obvious reasons, that's what I considered myself and didn't think much of it. But, as a lot of us do as we get older, I began to question the things I was taught and the things I believed. Ultimately, I spent a lot of time praying, meditating, and studying in the hopes of finding out whether or not I was inclined to believe differently than my parents/upbringing had suggested, and if so, how much differently. Coupled with my internal studies, prayer, and mediation was a great deal of time spent studying comparative religion and as much theology (from across the board - Catholicism and the seemingly infinite number of Protestant theologians and philosophers that emerged later on) as I could/could understand well, and I finally found myself comfortable and confident in my faith.

Along the way, I noticed a running theme of reverence, but disregard for the Old Testament in practical terms. I realized that the Old Testament was kept around during the birth of Christianity largely due to the prophecy it laid out, but beyond that, it didn't seem, in practical terms, to have much functional value. I don't want to seem as if I am diminishing the value the OT offers. But even in my youth, the OT was only occasionally taught/preached from (aside from the famous allegories of Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, etc., as well as the Ten Commandments), and when it was, it was usually about prophecy or was from Psalms and other, more poetic and esoteric books. Otherwise, it seemed to be disregarded. And, at least from my personal endeavors into studying Christianity, this seems to be the case, speaking in general terms of course, across the board. But I did notice that when I went to discuss this with some fellow Christians, they seemed put off by it - like I was attacking it or something. I certainly didn't mean to come off that way, and hope I don't here.

So, TL, DL: What is your take on the Old Testament? Do you view it as merely the prophetic justification of the New Testament and therefore ultimately replaced by it? Or is it still core to your particular denomination, sect, etc. of Christianity? I certainly don't want to undersell its utility, but what do you feel is its practical purpose in the faith, if you believe it has one?

I am a Christian. Got there late in life, as I began to stabilize in the recovery from drug addiction and alcoholism.

I did not want to be a Christian. God had other ideas.

My theology is four pillared:

God speaks to us in a manner we will understand at that time, both as a people and as individuals.

God never leaves.

There is no urgency in God's world, what will happen will happen in God's time, not ours.

And, the big one..

He will never give us more than we can handle.

I have come about face on many issues and no believe that the story and intent of Christ Jesus was hijacked way back when a roman emperor was dying and converted. That miscarriage also led to the suppression of the actual Bible. And, in the ignorance and superstition of the middle ages, the bible was taken literally when indeed, much of it is verse, poetry, metaphor and story telling.

There was never an Adam nor eve. The story is a metaphor for man's "fall", his taking of the fruit of the forbidden tree; not an apple nor even fruit, but the sin of pride.

there was never a whale for Jonah. Again the story is a story told and preserved verbally for thousands of years about a man who decides he will NOT do what God asks, and gets into trouble. The whale, a strange sea creature that would intrigued and hold the attention of people who have been wandering in the desert for four decades.

There as no Job either I suspect. The story is as much a comedy, it reads like a three act play, Job and his idiot friends, Job bitching at God and Act 3, where God shows up and explains it all...with the line "where you there when I created sunsets...?" Now that's humor.

Anyone who thinks God would actually gamble with Satan and place anyone "he so loved he gave his only begotten son" in pain and torment does not know God.

When we take the Bible out of context, in strict literal fashion, we insult God.

And, finally, the Old Testament is not a book at all, it is a library of books by different authors to a wide variety of people over the course of several centuries...it cannot be understood without knowing the cultures and traditions of the peoples of that time

If you take the Bible literally and try to use it as a manual, things will get confusing and difficult when you get to Leviticus and his demand that anyone who contracts mildew must burn down their home. I am certain now that we have bleach, God will forgive us for not committing arson

Please, this is for information only, I have no desire to debate this.

dogtowner · Sep 2, 2014

Considering Jesus was a jew and not a Christian and preached his faith, then yes there is ongoing significance.

Of course the aspects of prophesy are most significant but that's not all. There really isn't any difference from the OT to the NT beyond the introduction of the new covenant embodied in Christ. If it was wrong before its still wrong. If it was good before its still good.

Sure Jesus would like us to consider out actions more and see if forgiveness can't be closer to the forefront as opposed to getting into that eye for an eye position.

Mainly I find it comforting to see that constancy. Makes the nature of the new covenant and what Christ's sacrifice was in all it's fullness.

My 2 cents.

TobyOne · Sep 2, 2014

You need the OT because the bible - in total - is the story of Gods relationship to man. Without the OT there is no need for Jesus. Having said that, there's much in the OT thats superfluous and outdated - or more accurately, abrogated - so that Christians today treat OT laws for example differently from Jews of the first century.

polisciguy · Sep 2, 2014

Fearandloathing said:
I am a Christian. Got there late in life, as I began to stabilize in the recovery from drug addiction and alcoholism.

I did not want to be a Christian. God had other ideas.

My theology is four pillared:

God speaks to us in a manner we will understand at that time, both as a people and as individuals.

God never leaves.

There is no urgency in God's world, what will happen will happen in God's time, not ours.

And, the big one..

He will never give us more than we can handle.

I have come about face on many issues and no believe that the story and intent of Christ Jesus was hijacked way back when a roman emperor was dying and converted. That miscarriage also led to the suppression of the actual Bible. And, in the ignorance and superstition of the middle ages, the bible was taken literally when indeed, much of it is verse, poetry, metaphor and story telling.

There was never an Adam nor eve. The story is a metaphor for man's "fall", his taking of the fruit of the forbidden tree; not an apple nor even fruit, but the sin of pride.

there was never a whale for Jonah. Again the story is a story told and preserved verbally for thousands of years about a man who decides he will NOT do what God asks, and gets into trouble. The whale, a strange sea creature that would intrigued and hold the attention of people who have been wandering in the desert for four decades.

There as no Job either I suspect. The story is as much a comedy, it reads like a three act play, Job and his idiot friends, Job bitching at God and Act 3, where God shows up and explains it all...with the line "where you there when I created sunsets...?" Now that's humor.

Anyone who thinks God would actually gamble with Satan and place anyone "he so loved he gave his only begotten son" in pain and torment does not know God.

When we take the Bible out of context, in strict literal fashion, we insult God.

And, finally, the Old Testament is not a book at all, it is a library of books by different authors to a wide variety of people over the course of several centuries...it cannot be understood without knowing the cultures and traditions of the peoples of that time

If you take the Bible literally and try to use it as a manual, things will get confusing and difficult when you get to Leviticus and his demand that anyone who contracts mildew must burn down their home. I am certain now that we have bleach, God will forgive us for not committing arson

Please, this is for information only, I have no desire to debate this.

You won't see any debate from me on it, good sir. Seems we share some of the same fundamental views on the Bible and our faith. Glad to see you were able to fight through such a difficult time.

polisciguy · Sep 2, 2014

dogtowner said:
Considering Jesus was a jew and not a Christian and preached his faith, then yes there is ongoing significance.

Of course the aspects of prophesy are most significant but that's not all. There really isn't any difference from the OT to the NT beyond the introduction of the new covenant embodied in Christ. If it was wrong before its still wrong. If it was good before its still good.

Sure Jesus would like us to consider out actions more and see if forgiveness can't be closer to the forefront as opposed to getting into that eye for an eye position.

Mainly I find it comforting to see that constancy. Makes the nature of the new covenant and what Christ's sacrifice was in all it's fullness.

My 2 cents.

Thank you for your input!

polisciguy · Sep 2, 2014

TobyOne said:
You need the OT because the bible - in total - is the story of Gods relationship to man. Without the OT there is no need for Jesus. Having said that, there's much in the OT thats superfluous and outdated - or more accurately, abrogated - so that Christians today treat OT laws for example differently from Jews of the first century.

Very true. Thank you for your response.

Fearandloathing · Sep 2, 2014

polisciguy said:
You won't see any debate from me on it, good sir. Seems we share some of the same fundamental views on the Bible and our faith. Glad to see you were able to fight through such a difficult time.

fight?

Nah. not at all. It was 24 years ago now and my life is 1000% better.
In the recovery the first thing you learn is that no human power can restore us to sanity. All I did was follow orders and be in pain, God did the rest.

I knew in advance that there would be no argument, but in here I take a lot of heat and certain posters troll me, looking for ammunition, and what better target than a believer.

What so few people get, IMHO, is that it's not about church, its not about how much or how well you pray, it is about having a one-on-one relationship with a living being. With that relationship HE will do the teaching.

Two years ago I was having trouble getting to a Bible study group and as I fretted about it, working up a good head of anxiety, I heard/felt a strong voice say: "I will teach you."
Two weeks later I was enrolled in a theology course on scholarship. And it is from that course that dealt with traditions, culture and anthropology where I saw how God handling of His people has changed and modified, not because HE has to change, but because will will not understand it....

If God had given me the same level of understanding I have today when I first 'met' him, I would have likely had myself committed.

Fearandloathing · Sep 2, 2014

dogtowner said:
Considering Jesus was a jew and not a Christian and preached his faith, then yes there is ongoing significance.

Of course the aspects of prophesy are most significant but that's not all. There really isn't any difference from the OT to the NT beyond the introduction of the new covenant embodied in Christ. If it was wrong before its still wrong. If it was good before its still good.

Sure Jesus would like us to consider out actions more and see if forgiveness can't be closer to the forefront as opposed to getting into that eye for an eye position.

Mainly I find it comforting to see that constancy. Makes the nature of the new covenant and what Christ's sacrifice was in all it's fullness.

My 2 cents.

astonishingly insightful.

Indeed, Jesus never 'converted' to anything, in fact the night before he died he sat Seder, the Jewish Passover feats where he called on his followers not only to continue to observe that tradition but to "remember me" in the communion of the wine.

The most significant aspect of the Old Testament is as a base for Jesus teachings. In almost every lecture and speech we see him give in the New Testament, he references something in the old and says he has not come to "abolish the law, but to uphold it" meaning Jewish Rabbinical law.

The one thing he does change, as you noted, is the eye for an eye thing to turn the other cheek, something lost on most Christians today. Another thing people miss, IMO, is that our forgiveness is conditional..."Forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us"

polisciguy · Sep 2, 2014

Fearandloathing said:
fight?

Persevere, I guess would be a better word. With the aid of God, of course.

Fearandloathing said:
but in here I take a lot of heat and certain posters troll me, looking for ammunition, and what better target than a believer.

Isn't that the truth.

Fearandloathing said:
What so few people get, IMHO, is that it's not about church, its not about how much or how well you pray, it is about having a one-on-one relationship with a living being. With that relationship HE will do the teaching.

Very well said. For a long time, I kept trying to find God through the institutions of religion - the way I had been taught you seek God, the way my parents and members of my church did. It took me a long time and a very long, but beautiful spiritual journey to realize the path to God is built around that one-on-one relationship, and how you get to that point isn't an institutionalized process.

Fearandloathing said:
Two weeks later I was enrolled in a theology course on scholarship. And it is from that course that dealt with traditions, culture and anthropology where I saw how God handling of His people has changed and modified, not because HE has to change, but because will will not understand it....

Again, well said, my friend. God works in a variety of ways such that a variety of people can understand Him.

This brief discussion has really brightened my night. Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

CrabCake · Sep 2, 2014

I love that you asked this question because I feel like modern Christianity, especially in the more fundamentalist traditions (baptism being one of them) has lost touch with the Old Testament and what it has to offer. I believe that without the Old Testament, it is impossible to make sense of the New Testament. Who is the God of Abraham? What does it mean that he is the covenant God of the people of Israel? What is the messiah? What is God's relationship to man? All of these things, and more, are answered in the Old Testament.

The bible can be viewed best as a narrative. The bible tells a story. It is a story of man and of God. It is a story of how a fallen world is reconciled to be made whole by the one true God via his chosen people, the Israelites. We can view the bible through the paradigm of a play in 5 Acts.

Act I: Creation
Act II: The Fall
Act III: The People of God (Israel)
Act IV: Redemption (Jesus)
Act V: The People of God (The New Testament and beyond)

Viewed as a continuous narrative, we can see that the Old Testament (which covers Acts I-III of our play) is critical to understanding what happened in Act IV and what is currently transpiring in the Act we are living in, Act V. The way I see the Old Testament is as the foundation and history of God's interaction with man, which covers the first 3 Acts of the story that makes up world history.

Some say that the beginning is irrelevant. But how would you like to jump into a play at Act IV and miss the first three acts? Do you really believe you could put Act IV in the proper perspective and understand what is really happening without having seen Acts 1-3? The entire thing needs to be treated as a whole. To understand the story God is telling, you must be familiar with both the Old and New testaments.

For more on this topic, I would recommend you take one of two routes. If you are more inclined to prefer popular books that are easy to read and give you a general understanding, then I highly recommend "The Epic" by John Edredge. It's a very easy book to read that can be read in one or two sittings due to its short length and doesn't require any background in theology whatsoever; it also happens to cost less than $5 through Amazon (or probably anywhere else you buy it). It's a perfect book for introducing a layman to a narrative view of scripture. I have heard that his followup book, "Waking the Dead" is even better, but haven't read it myself. The alternate route you can take is a bit tougher but more intellectually robust. That is to read "Scripture and the Authority of God" by N.T. Wright. This is the more academic approach to the topic of biblical interpretation through a narrative lens; it is the book which introduces the 5 act structure I mentioned. That's a more time-consuming but more thorough study on the topic. I personally chose to read it as an audio book through Audible, because this allowed me to maximize the value of my morning and evening commutes. But you could also sit down to read it if you prefer.

Whether or not you read either of the two aforementioned books, I recommend you at least take the time to read this short article, which is a super-condensed version of what you will find in the much larger work by N.T. Wright that I recommended above: How Can The Bible Be Authoritative? by N.T. Wright

Fearandloathing · Sep 2, 2014

polisciguy said:
Persevere, I guess would be a better word. With the aid of God, of course.

Isn't that the truth.

Very well said. For a long time, I kept trying to find God through the institutions of religion - the way I had been taught you seek God, the way my parents and members of my church did. It took me a long time and a very long, but beautiful spiritual journey to realize the path to God is built around that one-on-one relationship, and how you get to that point isn't an institutionalized process.

Again, well said, my friend. God works in a variety of ways such that a variety of people can understand Him.

This brief discussion has really brightened my night. Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

and well said yourself. It is amazing that just today during a lull in my afternoon that I thought it would be nice to have another Christian to roll these ideas off....and here you are.

God is not about church. Did you know that there is NO Biblical directive that we attend church at all. Instead there is Acts, 2:11 I believe where John paints a lovely picture of socialism at work, the apostles living and eating together and sharing everything.

Frankly, with many churches today I get Images of Jesus and a whip.

And you said it perfectly...a "beautiful journey" in a one on one relationship.

polisciguy · Sep 2, 2014

Fearandloathing said:
and well said yourself. It is amazing that just today during a lull in my afternoon that I thought it would be nice to have another Christian to roll these ideas off....and here you are.

God is not about church. Did you know that there is NO Biblical directive that we attend church at all. Instead there is Acts, 2:11 I believe where John paints a lovely picture of socialism at work, the apostles living and eating together and sharing everything.

Frankly, with many churches today I get Images of Jesus and a whip.

I had a similar thought earlier today as well while reading about the beginnings of Christianity in Byzantium.

And yeah, you're spot on with the Jesus and a whip image. I think these churches are really robbing themselves of a much more beautiful unity that is far more akin to the image painted by the passage in Acts you reference.

Fearandloathing · Sep 2, 2014

CrabCake said:
I love that you asked this question because I feel like modern Christianity, especially in the more fundamentalist traditions (baptism being one of them) has lost touch with the Old Testament and what it has to offer. I believe that without the Old Testament, it is impossible to make sense of the New Testament. Who is the God of Abraham? What does it mean that he is the covenant God of the people of Israel? What is the messiah? What is God's relationship to man? All of these things, and more, are answered in the Old Testament.

The bible can be viewed best as a narrative. The bible tells a story. It is a story of man and of God. It is a story of how a fallen world is reconciled to be made whole by the one true God via his chosen people, the Israelites. We can view the bible through the paradigm of a play in 5 Acts.

Act I: Creation
Act II: The Fall
Act III: The People of God (Israel)
Act IV: Redemption (Jesus)
Act V: The People of God (The New Testament and beyond)

Viewed as a continuous narrative, we can see that the Old Testament (which covers Acts I-III of our play) is critical to understanding what happened in Act IV and what is currently transpiring in the Act we are living in, Act V. The way I see the Old Testament is as the foundation and history of God's interaction with man, which covers the first 3 Acts of the story that makes up world history.

Some say that the beginning is irrelevant. But how would you like to jump into a play at Act IV and miss the first three acts? Do you really believe you could put Act IV in the proper perspective and understand what is really happening without having seen Acts 1-3? The entire thing needs to be treated as a whole. To understand the story God is telling, you must be familiar with both the Old and New testaments.

For more on this topic, I would recommend you take one of two routes. If you are more inclined to prefer popular books that are easy to read and give you a general understanding, then I highly recommend "The Epic" by John Edredge. It's a very easy book to read that can be read in one or two sittings due to its short length and doesn't require any background in theology whatsoever; it also happens to cost less than $5 through Amazon (or probably anywhere else you buy it). It's a perfect book for introducing a layman to a narrative view of scripture. I have heard that his followup book, "Waking the Dead" is even better, but haven't read it myself. The alternate route you can take is a bit tougher but more intellectually robust. That is to read "Scripture and the Authority of God" by N.T. Wright. This is the more academic approach to the topic of biblical interpretation through a narrative lens; it is the book which introduces the 5 act structure I mentioned. That's a more time-consuming but more thorough study on the topic. I personally chose to read it as an audio book through Audible, because this allowed me to maximize the value of my morning and evening commutes. But you could also sit down to read it if you prefer.

Whether or not you read either of the two aforementioned books, I recommend you at least take the time to read this short article, which is a super-condensed version of what you will find in the much larger work by N.T. Wright that I recommended above: How Can The Bible Be Authoritative? by N.T. Wright

Well said.

For me the book that opened the door was J.I. Packer's Knowing God. It is somewhat introductory but well explains the significance of the Old Testament.

Having said that, it is not, technically, a continuous narrative as some books tell the same story a different way... a less than significant notation I agree.

If one does not know the whole story, from creation to redemption, then the purpose for redemption is not known...the significance of a God being killed to free man is just a fancy idea without knowing the reason why and why the crucifixion in a dirty little backwater of the Roman Empire could change the world.

One of the facts of Jesus is this: He was just another or many claiming to be the Messiah. The events took place in an area of the world barely even noted in the Historical Roman records, all we know is that Pilate had screwed up and was sent there to be punished, which should give you an idea, like being sent to Greenland in the US Army. We also know that His crucifixion was such a minor event that no one recorded it or any of the hundreds taking place.

For there to have been a religion created out of that insignificance at all suggests a deity. The fact it has endured every attempt to crush it for 2,000 years kind of seals the deal for me. Let's face it, killing your own son to free a people is not a theme of a best seller and not one easily understood unless you are called or guided.

polisciguy · Sep 2, 2014

CrabCake said:
I love that you asked this question because I feel like modern Christianity, especially in the more fundamentalist traditions (baptism being one of them) has lost touch with the Old Testament and what it has to offer. I believe that without the Old Testament, it is impossible to make sense of the New Testament. Who is the God of Abraham? What does it mean that he is the covenant God of the people of Israel? What is the messiah? What is God's relationship to man? All of these things, and more, are answered in the Old Testament.

The bible can be viewed best as a narrative. The bible tells a story. It is a story of man and of God. It is a story of how a fallen world is reconciled to be made whole by the one true God via his chosen people, the Israelites. We can view the bible through the paradigm of a play in 5 Acts.

Act I: Creation
Act II: The Fall
Act III: The People of God (Israel)
Act IV: Redemption (Jesus)
Act V: The People of God (The New Testament and beyond)

Viewed as a continuous narrative, we can see that the Old Testament (which covers Acts I-III of our play) is critical to understanding what happened in Act IV and what is currently transpiring in the Act we are living in, Act V. The way I see the Old Testament is as the foundation and history of God's interaction with man, which covers the first 3 Acts of the story that makes up world history.

Some say that the beginning is irrelevant. But how would you like to jump into a play at Act IV and miss the first three acts? Do you really believe you could put Act IV in the proper perspective and understand what is really happening without having seen Acts 1-3? The entire thing needs to be treated as a whole. To understand the story God is telling, you must be familiar with both the Old and New testaments.

For more on this topic, I would recommend you take one of two routes. If you are more inclined to prefer popular books that are easy to read and give you a general understanding, then I highly recommend "The Epic" by John Edredge. It's a very easy book to read that can be read in one or two sittings due to its short length and doesn't require any background in theology whatsoever; it also happens to cost less than $5 through Amazon (or probably anywhere else you buy it). It's a perfect book for introducing a layman to a narrative view of scripture. I have heard that his followup book, "Waking the Dead" is even better, but haven't read it myself. The alternate route you can take is a bit tougher but more intellectually robust. That is to read "Scripture and the Authority of God" by N.T. Wright. This is the more academic approach to the topic of biblical interpretation through a narrative lens; it is the book which introduces the 5 act structure I mentioned. That's a more time-consuming but more thorough study on the topic. I personally chose to read it as an audio book through Audible, because this allowed me to maximize the value of my morning and evening commutes. But you could also sit down to read it if you prefer.

Whether or not you read either of the two aforementioned books, I recommend you at least take the time to read this short article, which is a super-condensed version of what you will find in the much larger work by N.T. Wright that I recommended above: How Can The Bible Be Authoritative? by N.T. Wright

These books are definitely going on my reading list. Thanks a lot for your response. The value in the Old Testaments laying of the foundation for the work that Christ ultimately performed is often overlooked in the modern era.

vesper · Sep 2, 2014

polisciguy said:
The question is in the title, of course, but I'll give some context here. As a child and young adult, I was raised in what was technically a non-denominational church, but the theology was most certainly Baptist in nature. For a long time, and for obvious reasons, that's what I considered myself and didn't think much of it. But, as a lot of us do as we get older, I began to question the things I was taught and the things I believed. Ultimately, I spent a lot of time praying, meditating, and studying in the hopes of finding out whether or not I was inclined to believe differently than my parents/upbringing had suggested, and if so, how much differently. Coupled with my internal studies, prayer, and mediation was a great deal of time spent studying comparative religion and as much theology (from across the board - Catholicism and the seemingly infinite number of Protestant theologians and philosophers that emerged later on) as I could/could understand well, and I finally found myself comfortable and confident in my faith.

Along the way, I noticed a running theme of reverence, but disregard for the Old Testament in practical terms. I realized that the Old Testament was kept around during the birth of Christianity largely due to the prophecy it laid out, but beyond that, it didn't seem, in practical terms, to have much functional value. I don't want to seem as if I am diminishing the value the OT offers. But even in my youth, the OT was only occasionally taught/preached from (aside from the famous allegories of Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, etc., as well as the Ten Commandments), and when it was, it was usually about prophecy or was from Psalms and other, more poetic and esoteric books. Otherwise, it seemed to be disregarded. And, at least from my personal endeavors into studying Christianity, this seems to be the case, speaking in general terms of course, across the board. But I did notice that when I went to discuss this with some fellow Christians, they seemed put off by it - like I was attacking it or something. I certainly didn't mean to come off that way, and hope I don't here.

So, TL, DL: What is your take on the Old Testament? Do you view it as merely the prophetic justification of the New Testament and therefore ultimately replaced by it? Or is it still core to your particular denomination, sect, etc. of Christianity? I certainly don't want to undersell its utility, but what do you feel is its practical purpose in the faith, if you believe it has one?

Since you asked, my take on the Old Covenant is without understanding of the Old Covenant, one cannot gain a true understanding, perspective of the New. And without that perspective ones understanding is flawed. For in the Old the New is concealed and in in New the Old is revealed. The Old is like a typology, a foreshadow of ultimately what is revealed in the New. Christ himself in his teachings used numerous quotes from the Hebrew Scriptures after all, there wasn't a "New Testament" at that time. It was the message that Christ gave using the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament that set the people on their ears fulfilling over 44 prophecies telling of his coming and giving the people a true understanding without the perverted, power hungry religious leaders of that day that placed such burdens on all over man-made laws that no one could live up to. They had forgotten the key element of LOVE, love God and love others for that is what all the law is based on. Take the Big Ten for example. The first five are dedicated to loving God. The other five are all about loving Man. The early church was made up mainly of Jews who still attended Temple even after Christ's ascension and until it was destroyed. The Church started on the Day of Pentacost a Jewish Holiday, Festival of Weeks. Speaking of holidays, it is God's Calendar of all the feasts that is the total foreshadow of God's plan. When you read about the feasts/festivals you see they are divided into Spring and Fall over a 7 month period. Christ's first coming fulfilled the Spring feasts. He is our Passover Lamb without blemish. He is the one that fulfills the Feast of unleavened bread. A festival about a Holy walk with the absent of yeast which is a symbol of sin and He was without. He is the First Fruits raised from the dead. And the Feast of Weeks (Pentacost) is the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem on that day thousands in Jerusalem for attendance of the feast were converted and the Church was created. It is Christ's return that will fulfill the Fall feasts. The final three holidays (Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles) occur during the fall, all within a short fifteen-day period. All in God's timing.

One of my favorite Church Fathers is Polycarp. He was a student of the Apostle John. Polycarp on the Eastern Orthodox side strongly believed that the feasts of the Lord should not be altered where those in Rome wanted to do just that. He believed Passover should remain as Passover as Christ is our Passover Lamb. I'm with Polycarp. I think there are a lot of people proclaiming to be Christians should consider seeking out their Jewish roots for a greater understanding. After all, the God they proclaim to serve was Jewish. He observed the laws.

Fearandloathing · Sep 2, 2014

polisciguy said:
I had a similar thought earlier today as well while reading about the beginnings of Christianity in Byzantium.

And yeah, you're spot on with the Jesus and a whip image. I think these churches are really robbing themselves of a much more beautiful unity that is far more akin to the image painted by the passage in Acts you reference.

We have "modernized" and become so "hip" around here, I hear as much about some celeb who is famous for being famous. We quote Television instead of CS Lewis, and present canned sermons. I am amid a church search, my old one has become too young, too wealthy and waaay too comfortable. We had a a soul serving exercise where we, the council, we directed to seek out what the people wanted as we moved forward. 98% of the ideas were about internal stuff, better kids programs, better times, more baby sitters...the remainder about the needs of the community in which we gather.

We are called to Him....I did not understand that. As I got "curious" I also went looking for Him in church and I have a rather humorous essay on that experience where I ended up comparing all the churches by the standard of their cookies after the service. Of course, the church today is specified, there are "community churches", "evangelical" churches but you have to find a "seeker" church if you're wandering around, as I did, walking into churches saying "so, just who is this Jesus guy?"...the reaction is dumbfoundedness....

To be fair though, no church around here is equipped to deal with such an uncommon event as a 43 year old man actually trying to follow the path of Jesus on his own. {There was one pastor, handsome and gifted who I thought saw me as a miracle, that this is what he had been trained for.....but, as I say he was handsome and good looking and there were just so many of his female constituents who needed to tell him how great he was. I started to think I was invisible.

Today I look for the face of Jesus around me, a woman, apparently a Muslim, who buys and delivers food to a homeless man on the street, a teenager helping up a man who has fallen...he acts in all of us as I have come to see "kind" and "Compassionate" as God Himself...God is Good, a noun not a verb.

laska · Sep 3, 2014

The LDS view it as holy scripture just like the New Testament. Adam, Abraham, all the Old Testament prophets taught the gospel of Christ and everything symbolized the coming of the Savior. I believe the mood of the Old Testament is more somber because the theme is why we need a Savior....justice. The New Testament, the Savior has arrived, and the theme is mercy. All the Old Testament prophets symbolize Christ. From the meaning of their names to the parallels in their lives with stuff that happened in Jesus' life.

Gringo allstar · Sep 3, 2014

Wow I have nothing to add, excellent thread and great explanations of the OT and the NT.

God bless the men and women who posted here, I totally enjoyed the read! :bravo:

it's just me · Sep 3, 2014

Fearandloathing said:
God is not about church. Did you know that there is NO Biblical directive that we attend church at all.

You need to keep reading. God is not about the Body of Christ, eh?

it's just me · Sep 3, 2014

polisciguy said:
The question is in the title, of course, but I'll give some context here. As a child and young adult, I was raised in what was technically a non-denominational church, but the theology was most certainly Baptist in nature. For a long time, and for obvious reasons, that's what I considered myself and didn't think much of it. But, as a lot of us do as we get older, I began to question the things I was taught and the things I believed. Ultimately, I spent a lot of time praying, meditating, and studying in the hopes of finding out whether or not I was inclined to believe differently than my parents/upbringing had suggested, and if so, how much differently. Coupled with my internal studies, prayer, and mediation was a great deal of time spent studying comparative religion and as much theology (from across the board - Catholicism and the seemingly infinite number of Protestant theologians and philosophers that emerged later on) as I could/could understand well, and I finally found myself comfortable and confident in my faith.

Along the way, I noticed a running theme of reverence, but disregard for the Old Testament in practical terms. I realized that the Old Testament was kept around during the birth of Christianity largely due to the prophecy it laid out, but beyond that, it didn't seem, in practical terms, to have much functional value. I don't want to seem as if I am diminishing the value the OT offers. But even in my youth, the OT was only occasionally taught/preached from (aside from the famous allegories of Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, etc., as well as the Ten Commandments), and when it was, it was usually about prophecy or was from Psalms and other, more poetic and esoteric books. Otherwise, it seemed to be disregarded. And, at least from my personal endeavors into studying Christianity, this seems to be the case, speaking in general terms of course, across the board. But I did notice that when I went to discuss this with some fellow Christians, they seemed put off by it - like I was attacking it or something. I certainly didn't mean to come off that way, and hope I don't here.

So, TL, DL: What is your take on the Old Testament? Do you view it as merely the prophetic justification of the New Testament and therefore ultimately replaced by it? Or is it still core to your particular denomination, sect, etc. of Christianity? I certainly don't want to undersell its utility, but what do you feel is its practical purpose in the faith, if you believe it has one?

What do you think Jesus preached from? How about Paul?

The way of salvation is found in both the OT and the NT. Don't believe me? Try reading a Psalm every day.

it's just me · Sep 3, 2014

Fearandloathing said:
To be fair though, no church around here is equipped to deal with such an uncommon event as a 43 year old man actually trying to follow the path of Jesus on his own. {There was one pastor, handsome and gifted who I thought saw me as a miracle, that this is what he had been trained for.....but, as I say he was handsome and good looking and there were just so many of his female constituents who needed to tell him how great he was. I started to think I was invisible.

I don't think he saw you as a "miracle", he probably thought you were a crackpot. We see people who are trying to "follow Jesus on their own" every day, most of them fall into a ditch and eventually give up.

Today I look for the face of Jesus around me, a woman, apparently a Muslim, who buys and delivers food to a homeless man on the street, a teenager helping up a man who has fallen...he acts in all of us as I have come to see "kind" and "Compassionate" as God Himself...God is Good, a noun not a verb.

There is more to worshiping God than service. The Pharisees served their congregations, gave to the poor, and they still missed the point. Christians are called to love God and love their neighbors, and the Pastor you spoke of earlier is your neighbor, so are the women in his church. He who loves his neighbor, whether they are the good looking Pastor or his congregation, has fulfilled the Law. (Romans 13:8)

Most of you strike me as being on the judgmental side - "Frankly, with many churches today I get Images of Jesus and a whip".

Really? I get images of Jesus sacrificing his body and blood for all mankind.

CrabCake · Sep 3, 2014

Fearandloathing said:
Did you know that there is NO Biblical directive that we attend church at all.

I find it impossible to read the New Testament and not be fully aware that the believers gathered together. Nearly the entire New Testament is devoted to instructing these gatherings of believers which came to be called churches. Acts shows us how they first started meeting. Remember the incident where the young man fell out of a window and died because Paul had been preaching for so long (indeed all night)? (Acts chapter 20). The New Testament is filled with references to "the elders of the church of ___". In 1 Timothy, we are introduced to the concept of Deacons, yet Paul doesn't write it as if it's a new concept, he writes as if Timothy already knows that churches should have deacons but he is only instructing him on the qualifications one should have to be a deacon. Likewise this epistle is filled with instruction on how church should be conducted. In fact, in the middle of all these instructions about how to conduct church, Paul writes:

1 Timothy 3:14-15 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Nearly every epistle is written to the elder of a specific church:
1 Corinthians 1:2 and 2 Corinthians 1:1 "To the church of God in Corinth..."
Galatians 1:2 "To the churches in Galatia..."
Phillipians 1:1 "To all God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons..."
Thessalonians 1:1 "To the church of the Thessalonians..."
etc...

It seems clear from reading the New Testament that the idea of forming a body of believers called a church, along with associated elders and deacons, was the structure set up as the basis of Christianity.

Fearandloathing said:
And you said it perfectly...a "beautiful journey" in a one on one relationship.

This idea would have been unthinkable to the apostles. The very essence of Christianity, as most beautifully revealed in Acts, was a life lived together. The idea that one could be a Christian by himself would have made no sense. If Christianity is about sharing the good news, breaking bread together, praying together, worshipping together, looking out for each other's needs, etc. How does one do that by themselves?

Such a solitary journey is more in line with gnostic thinking than with Pauline Christianity.

It would be very challenging to support such a view using scripture.

Fellow Christians - What is your take on the Old Testament?

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