What have they done to Christ?

Cable said:

I understand symbolism, and that revelation is full of it. But this particular verse appears to be very literal. He is descibing the throne, who sits on the throne, and those around and in front of the throne. Then he states "the lamb in the center of the throne"
It does not appear to be symbolic, but literal. All of those present are real beings.

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16“They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

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Rev 22:12
12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

and

22:2020He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

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RGacky3 said:

I don't think it's literal at all ... is Jesus literally a lamb? Are there literally 4 Creatures in heaven? Do they literally Wash their robes in blood? OBviously not. Are there literally springs of life?
Obviously not ... The point it is making is Jesus, the Lamb, is in the center of authority ... UNDER God.

12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[g] so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”


17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.”
And let everyone who hears say, “Come.”
And let everyone who is thirsty come.
Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book; 19 if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen.[h]

Vrst 12 is Yahweh speaking ...
Then 16 is Jesus talking. Then verse 20 ... the one who TESTIFIES that God is going to do what he said he's going to do is also coming .... That's Jesus. That's what verse 20 is talking about, it's not talking about verse 12.
BTW, what's your response to the Whole 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 thing (along With Psalms 110:1 and Daniel 7:13,14) .... and 1 Corinthians 11:3 ... i.e. the CLEAR subservience texts.

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Cable said:

1. I had a feeling you were going to say what you have said RG. First God talking, then Jesus. But there is no reason for this mid-thought leap. Unless you want to change the meaning.
2. But I hear you on the subservience point. I am at a point where I think the "trinity" description is a best guess, just as yours is a best guess at the relationship between the Father and Christ.
I don't see that we know for certain either way, and I don't know at this point that we can know. And lastly, I am not sure it matters. It would be nice to know, but what matters?

"Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

3. This seems to be what matters.
I have heard people say of JW's or Mormons, "they have the wrong Christ"
Are we able to know this? Certainly there are wrong Christs, I can see this much. But at what fine dividing line do we know we have the right Christ?
For example Islam says Christ was a prophet. We know he is more than this. So they seem to certainly have the wrong Christ.
You on the other hand say Christ is the one and only, sent from the Father, and he is the Christ, the savior of the World. In him we must put our faith.
I can't see that you are in error that far, if I have you right. ?

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RGacky3 said:

1. The reason for this link is the Whole context, the person coming in the second sense is the one testifying that God will do these Things ... i.e. not God ... We also have the rest of the context of Revelation, where God is giving the revelation TO Jesus who gives it to John, the Whole opening of Revelation kind of makes the Trinity impossible.

2. The Trinity is a theory created to deal With various Creeds, i.e. Jesus is God ... The father is God, but there is one God ... to hold all those Creeds together you have to create a theory like the Trinity, my claim is you don't need that, the scriptures are much more simple if you just read them on their own terms.

3. As far as it mattering ... I think it does matter, (not as much for example is declaring that Jesus is lord, and bringing the Kingdom of God, this is something we have in common).

The difference we have is more the indentity of Yahweh ... it does matter, because we have a different Yahweh.

But at the same time we believe much more in common than for example.

When it comes to Islam ... I think their theology is very confused, especially when it comes to soteriology and escatology ... and when it comes to the Identity of Christ ... They think he's more than a prophet, I mean they won' say that, but he is the one who they claim will come back and destroy Gods enemies ... as do Christians, but I don't think Islamic theology has really worked out all the kinks yet (as far as I know).

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Cable said:

I honestly don't know if the trinity theory actually works. Neither do I feel that your explanation works. It seems to reach in the same way the trinity answer reaches, just in a different direction. I think the trinity explanation works a little better than yours RG.

1. You seem to cling strongly to the understanding that we are one with the Father as Christ is, but the scripture shows we will be one (some day) just as Christ and the Father are one (now and always have been). In that way we will never be one as Christ is with the Father. He always has been. We can't say this.

2. The Jews accused him of making himself equal with the Father. He confirmed this by saying "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" and also equating his hand to the Father's hand. Very strong and direct language. We can not say this, even if we are in accord with the Father. He is in perfect accord with the Father, we are not, at least not in this life.

I don't know that we have a different Yahweh. I think it more accurate to say we are both grasping to understand the Father and Christ, and their relationship, and we, neither of us really know the answer to this mystery. It does not however seem to be a prerequisit to our salvation. Believing in the One He has sent seems to be the key.

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RGacky3 said:

1. This is not my idea, this is John, there's just no way around the way John uses the Language of Oneness ... John says Jesus and the Father are one IN THE SAME WAY we are one With christ and the father ... Now if you want to assert that in some OTHER way Christ is one With the father in a way we are not, that's fine, but that's NOT what John is saying in the oneness passages.

2. Just saying what the Jews accused Jesus of isn't enough, you have to see what Jesus' response was ... Jesus repudiated their accusation and clearly said "the father is greater than I am" .... the statement he said to Thomas was not literal, we know this becauase of everything he says around it, the father does his work through Jesus, everything Jesus says is from the father, and so on, we get the point he was making, that's the context, it was NEVER ontological ... and if you take it ontologically then you have Seballianism (modalism) not the Trinity.

3. My Yahweh is one person, the Father, Yours is 3 People, as far as salvation, I think you're right.

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Cable said:

1. There is no way around how Christ describes oneness with the Father. He included the full description. He described His oneness with the Father, and how we might be one with the Father. I don't ignore any part of that.

2. I have a qustion on this scripture: "45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father."

Is Christ speaking of Himself as "The one who is from God." ?

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RGacky3 said:

1. Yeah .... none of that is trinitarian, or even compatible With trinitarianism.

2.45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life.

look at John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word. 44 You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is from God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not from God.”

So it's not as simple as just picking apart the Language and sayin "who is that person" the gospels are a lot more complex, he could be talkin about a type of person, the greek is singular, so he could very well be talking about himself, or he could be tying it in With the Whole concept that whoever has seen me has seen the father and is from God, because Jesus reveals the will of the father and everything he says is from the father.

I'm not 100% sure if it's him or those who listen to him, especially given the context.

41 Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not complain among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day.

So he's saying "I have come Down from heaven" but he's also talking about those who come to him as being "drawn by the father."

But I lean toward it being about Christ, if I had to answer simple, I'd say "probably yes."

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Cable said:

I was just thinking about it in relation to all the times in the OT where people see God. Jacob Wrestled with God. Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden. If no one has seen God except Christ, was that it Christ the walked and wrestled with?

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RGacky3 said:

In Jacobs case the verse says .... it was an angel of God ... wrestling With God is a figure of speach,
With Adam and Eve it's obviously not literally, God didn't "walk"
This is not just made up interpretation, it's the standard Jewish interpretation and it's been that way for mellenium .... just look at ancient Jewish commentaries.

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Cable said:

I can see that "wrestling with God" might be a figure of speech, but that does not appear to be the case with Jacob's situation.

26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.” But he said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but [a]Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my [c]life has been preserved.”

I don't see that it says an angel or messenger of God. He says God.

Regarding the account of God walking in the garden, it says "8 They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the [c]cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden."
God walking in the garden made a sound they could hear. That sounds literal to me. They hid themselves from the Lords physical presence.

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RGacky3 said:

It would have to be that way.
Exodus 33:20 says no man can see God and live.
Seeing god face to face does not neccessarily mean literally.
Also Hosea 12: shows that the interpretation has always been that of an angel.
2 The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah;
he will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.
3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;
as a man he struggled with God.
4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there—

So we have to be careful With rigid literalism, and read the bible on it's own terms.

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Cable said:

I appreciate you sharing Hosea.
It is strange that Jacob would proclaim he had seen God face to face and yet lived.

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