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Pope Francis and Economic Justice

ChezC3

Relentless Thinking Fury
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The Holy Father knows poverty and violence. He knows the plague of corrupt politics and oppressive governments. He has seen the cruelty of human trafficking and other forms of exploitation. He has seen elites who rig the political system in their favor and keep the poor in poverty. When we Americans think about economics, we think in terms of efficiency and production. When Francis thinks about economics, he thinks in terms of human suffering. We’re blessed to live in a rich, free, stable country. We can’t always see what Francis sees.

Pope Francis and Economic Justice | Daily News | NCRegister.com

A phenomenal piece by Archbishop Chaput which helps clear up the Pope's positions which have been clouded either intentionally or unintentionally by the Press.
 
Pope Francis and Economic Justice | Daily News | NCRegister.com

A phenomenal piece by Archbishop Chaput which helps clear up the Pope's positions which have been clouded either intentionally or unintentionally by the Press.

I am always distrustful of calls for good and fairness, when one cannot say how. I, personally do not believe that we are yet far enough developed to redistribute meaningfully. We may be at some time in the not all to distant future. Right now I believe it would cause havoc and mass misery.
 
I am always distrustful of calls for good and fairness, when one cannot say how. I, personally do not believe that we are yet far enough developed to redistribute meaningfully. We may be at some time in the not all to distant future. Right now I believe it would cause havoc and mass misery.

Redistribution as you've presented it is a cliche. Wealth is always in a state of redistribution. It goes out in investment, in consumption, in product, and labor, and it returns.

A reorganization on how and to whom in what quantity it returns is what needs to be addressed.

Distrustful as you've presented it is a synonym for fear. The status quo feed on fear. It's what spawns the phrase "Capitalism isn't perfect but it's the best we've come up with"

Now true distrust is in the people who we shouldn't be distrustful of, skeptical yes, but not distrustful. The people I speak of is our politicians, our government which has phased out of being a organized structure of the people's collective will and turned into an entity detached from the people. A self serving entity which operates independently. An entity which dictates to rather than it being a voice of the people.

The Church isn't here to pit man vs man, nation vs nation. The Church stands outside of these temporal conflicts. The Church provides guidance, it provides a framework of acceptability to which we the people can create for ourselves and each other suitable modes of production. It can, should, and will always point out what is destructive, what is evil, what is contrary to nature's laws and God's Will. It is outside it's providence to provide the processes of implementation, that is up to us.
 
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not this thread again.

i get so sick of hearing about this topic. it is clearly not biblical. there is no reference to social justic in the bible nor did christ preach on any type of social justice.

Christ charged the charged the church with helping and taking care of the poor. He did not say take what someone else has because you think they make to much and give it to someone else.

in the early church they gave of themselves of their own free will. they did not force other people to give up what they had in order to give it to someone else.
i put this right up there with the prosperity gospels people that think if you give god 10k dollars it will return it 10x.

Christ preached on the love of money and making it a god. he did not however preach against having money or being wealthy but realizing where that came from.
that is why you see a lot of rich people that have charities they contribute to or run themselves.
 
not this thread again.

i get so sick of hearing about this topic. it is clearly not biblical. there is no reference to social justic in the bible nor did christ preach on any type of social justice.

Christ charged the charged the church with helping and taking care of the poor. He did not say take what someone else has because you think they make to much and give it to someone else.

in the early church they gave of themselves of their own free will. they did not force other people to give up what they had in order to give it to someone else.
i put this right up there with the prosperity gospels people that think if you give god 10k dollars it will return it 10x.

Christ preached on the love of money and making it a god. he did not however preach against having money or being wealthy but realizing where that came from.
that is why you see a lot of rich people that have charities they contribute to or run themselves.

Not this response again.

I get so sick of people so sick of topics but feel the need to respond. It's clearly not logical. there is no reason to respond to a post if you're sick of seeing it.

No one has said that you take from one and give to another. This is a stawman.

Yes, which is what is being promoted here. You can put it right up with the Gospel of chicken wings on a hot sunday night, don't really matter.

More straw...

Mark 12:
41And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums. 42A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. 43Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; 44for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.”
 
I am always distrustful of calls for good and fairness, when one cannot say how. I, personally do not believe that we are yet far enough developed to redistribute meaningfully. We may be at some time in the not all to distant future. Right now I believe it would cause havoc and mass misery.
yes, where would this world be if goodness and fairness prevailed
sarcasm alert.gif
 
Eh...I have no desire for ANY religion to have any more weighting our politics than it so clearly already does.
 
Not this response again.

I get so sick of people so sick of topics but feel the need to respond. It's clearly not logical. there is no reason to respond to a post if you're sick of seeing it.

No one has said that you take from one and give to another. This is a stawman.

Yes, which is what is being promoted here. You can put it right up with the Gospel of chicken wings on a hot sunday night, don't really matter.

More straw...

No the only straw here is your argument of wealth redistribution and the bible. There is no such thing and Christ never preached wealth redistribution.
Yes i will correct any unbiblical theology out there.

yes wealth redistribution involves taking from one person that you deem has to much and giving it to someone that you deem doesn't have enough.

Mark 12:
41And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums. 42A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. 43Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; 44for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on.”

Please don't try and quote scripture if you don't know what it means or understand what it means. this verse has nothing to do with wealth distribution or redistribution.

He was rebuking a man that seemed to be giving a lot but was only giving a small portion of what he had. IE he was putting on a show much like the people that would pray outloud in the street to seem rightous or holy.
 
No the only straw here is your argument of wealth redistribution and the bible. There is no such thing and Christ never preached wealth redistribution.
Yes i will correct any unbiblical theology out there.

yes wealth redistribution involves taking from one person that you deem has to much and giving it to someone that you deem doesn't have enough.



Please don't try and quote scripture if you don't know what it means or understand what it means. this verse has nothing to do with wealth distribution or redistribution.

He was rebuking a man that seemed to be giving a lot but was only giving a small portion of what he had. IE he was putting on a show much like the people that would pray outloud in the street to seem rightous or holy.

You've doubled down on the straw!!!

:lamo

Show that argument you've now twice claim I've made!

Please don't make such an attempt. You've not the requisite knowledge.

Heed you're own advice. I never made that claim.

Now, reread what you wrote and read the passage and maybe it will come to you in a vision.

Good God...

:lamo
 
....
Distrustful as you've presented it is a synonym for fear. ....

I do not know that "fear" is the right word, but there have been a number of examples of attempted mass redistribution. I know of none that could be considered an unqualified success.
 
yes, where would this world be if goodness and fairness prevailed
View attachment 67170308

Oh, no doubt it would be a great place. Problem is that many, if not most actions by society as a whole that is meant as good and fair reduces average economic welfare, sometimes to the point of depression.
 
not this thread again.

i get so sick of hearing about this topic. it is clearly not biblical. there is no reference to social justic in the bible nor did christ preach on any type of social justice.

Christ charged the charged the church with helping and taking care of the poor. He did not say take what someone else has because you think they make to much and give it to someone else.

in the early church they gave of themselves of their own free will. they did not force other people to give up what they had in order to give it to someone else.
i put this right up there with the prosperity gospels people that think if you give god 10k dollars it will return it 10x.

Christ preached on the love of money and making it a god. he did not however preach against having money or being wealthy but realizing where that came from.
that is why you see a lot of rich people that have charities they contribute to or run themselves.

The Hebrew Word for Justice Misphat, essencially means (most of the time) what we mean to day when we say "social justice"

it's not about taking from one and giving to another, it's about setting up the framework inwhich People produce and that Product is Distributed in a way that benefits everyone and doesn't exclude the poor.

Jesus wasn't impressed by philanthropy at all, InFact he saw right through it. For example the story about the old lady giving to the temple as opposed to the Rich men. Philanthropy isn't the solution, a just system is.
 
You've doubled down on the straw!!!

:lamo

Show that argument you've now twice claim I've made!

Please don't make such an attempt. You've not the requisite knowledge.

Heed you're own advice. I never made that claim.

Now, reread what you wrote and read the passage and maybe it will come to you in a vision.

Good God...

:lamo

you started the thread on the pope and economic justice so again continue with your denial argument it won't get you very far. have a nice day.
you can't even address your own topic.
 
The Hebrew Word for Justice Misphat, essencially means (most of the time) what we mean to day when we say "social justice"

it's not about taking from one and giving to another, it's about setting up the framework inwhich People produce and that Product is Distributed in a way that benefits everyone and doesn't exclude the poor.

Jesus wasn't impressed by philanthropy at all, InFact he saw right through it. For example the story about the old lady giving to the temple as opposed to the Rich men. Philanthropy isn't the solution, a just system is.

I am not even going to respond to you. i destroyed you the last 2 threads you created on this have a nice day.
 
I do not and cannot trust either the Catholics or Pope Francis...but that's a religious thing, and Francis is right about social justice, for that is indeed what Christ preached.

I will admit out of the last bunch of Popes, Francis is the most genuine person . He is at least attempting to steer the RCC Church back in a more compassionate direction. The RCC church is huge, and has a strong amount of inertia to be able to turn it around. He is certainly the only Pope I wouldn't mind meeting in bar someplace for a good drink.
 
you started the thread on the pope and economic justice so again continue with your denial argument it won't get you very far. have a nice day.
you can't even address your own topic.

I started a thread about clearing up the Pope's position on economic justice, so again continue with the straw man, that's now thrice you've done so. I will have a phenomenal day and I hope you do too. I most certainly can and have, I just don't bite on BS...
 
I do not know that "fear" is the right word, but there have been a number of examples of attempted mass redistribution. I know of none that could be considered an unqualified success.

Sure it is. People fear losing what they've got. They fear change. They fear not having enough, of not getting their fair share, of the mob coming and taking away all their possessions. The sick thing is we've also got this macho man attitude we've built for ourselves thanks to pop culture and an overbought military which causes us to lie to ourselves, to not be truthful about emotions.

Not making a defense because I'm not advocating for a redistribution, as I stated above.
 
I started a thread about clearing up the Pope's position on economic justice, so again continue with the straw man, that's now thrice you've done so. I will have a phenomenal day and I hope you do too. I most certainly can and have, I just don't bite on BS...

yep economic justice is just another name for wealth redistribution. the terms go hand in hand and there is nothing in the bible that suggests this ever occured.
 
yep economic justice is just another name for wealth redistribution. the terms go hand in hand and there is nothing in the bible that suggests this ever occured.

OK, you're making it very hard for me to be polite. No, economic justice isn't another name for wealth redistribution. They are paired together as pejoratives by those who seek to continue practices which are detrimental to society. Where did I tell anyone to seek the bible for reference? Where in my OP did I do anything other than present an article to clear up the Pope's position on these matters? You are adding elements which haven't been presented thereby changing my argument i.e. creating a straw man.
 
yep economic justice is just another name for wealth redistribution. the terms go hand in hand and there is nothing in the bible that suggests this ever occured.

Just to point out, economics is just another name for wealth distribution. It all depends on which way the wealth is flowing.
 
Just to point out, economics is just another name for wealth distribution. It all depends on which way the wealth is flowing.

actually wealth redistribution or social justice has an actual definition.
it usually involves taking forcefully from one and giving it to another.
 
actually wealth redistribution or social justice has an actual definition.
it usually involves taking forcefully from one and giving it to another.

No, buy/selling, wages, taxes (or lack thereof) or any kind of activity will result in wealth redistribution.
 
yep economic justice is just another name for wealth redistribution. the terms go hand in hand and there is nothing in the bible that suggests this ever occured.

Acts 2 and 4.

Leviticus 19, 25,

Deuteronomy 24.

It's pretty damn Clear here (and many, many, many other scriptures) what kind of economic system is in line With God's justice.

Hell Usury, (charging of any interest) was an abomination, and that was upheld by Jesus ... Yet Usury (profit taking, charging of interest) is the main cornerstone of modern Capitalism.
 
OK, you're making it very hard for me to be polite. No, economic justice isn't another name for wealth redistribution. They are paired together as pejoratives by those who seek to continue practices which are detrimental to society. Where did I tell anyone to seek the bible for reference? Where in my OP did I do anything other than present an article to clear up the Pope's position on these matters? You are adding elements which haven't been presented thereby changing my argument i.e. creating a straw man.

Exactly, wealth redistribution happens no matter what, economic justice can invovle many many many different Things, including wealth redistribution.
 
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