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Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.[W:145]

Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
Well sure, you could appreciate some of the things Jesus said the same way you might a slogan on a bumper sticker or a t-shirt. As to the actual person of Jesus Christ, there really are only two possibilities, either He is the Son of God or He isn't. I'd be curious what this third option would be. He's sort of the Son of God? He's actually the nephew of God?
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There is the 'literal son of God', and then there is the 'Son of God' that was being used in the Jewish religion.. an euphemism for a 'righteous man'. Then there is the 'spiritually adopted one' . .. or the attitude he is a human being, and we all are the sons and daughters of God.

So, which is it? All are dealing with the term 'Son of God', but all have very distinct meanings.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

Your Star said:
Yeah, no. You're conclusion here is just plain false. One can very much so appreciate the non-spiritual message of Christ without having to believe that Christ is God. /thread
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From the aspect of a believer, Christ presented no message that was "non-spiritual". That's sort of the point of the entire OP. :shrug:
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

Paschendale said:
I think we ought to evaluate ideas like those presented in the gospels based on their own merit instead of relying on authority.
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This sort of goes against the entire premise behind RELIGION in general, does it not? Religion, by strictest definition relies upon appealing to an authority. And is this not the "Religious Discussions" sub-forum?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
Actually, I think Christ's words are very consistent. All of them. Yes, He was about love and grace and mercy but that did not mean that He condoned sin or preached that there would be no consequences.
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Yeah, this is the part I don't get.

Jesus was quite ominous as to what would become of the unrepentant, don't know where all this talk of everyone is saved, everything is gonna be alright no matter what mishegoss came into play.

Well, I do, but I'm a superstitious old fool...;)
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
I have seen on several occassions where some proclaim respect or even "love" for Christ yet refer to Him as just a (good) man or just a prophet of God. The problem is that Jesus is very explicit in who He is and His relationship to God. In order to disbelieve he's the Son of God you have to believe everything He said is a lie. Would God choose, as His prophet, someone who leads people astray?

I realize this may be the shortest thread in DP history. Those who don't believe in Jesus certainly tend not to be too bothered about proclaiming Him a liar and it's not those people or believers, such as myself, that I'm talking or referring to. This thread is really addressing those that are "fence sitters" so to speak, who, while I appreciate them not wanting to show disrespect to Christ nevertheless cannot have it both ways.
Either Jesus is a complete liar and fraud, or He truly what He proclaimed he is, The Son of God.
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Just some late night musings when I should be sleeping. :)
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How did a 1/2 Jewish guy end up with a Mexican name 2,000 years ago?

Any ideas on that?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

CaptainCourtesy said:
I am going to take a unique approach to this thread.

What I see here is a false dichotomy: either Jesus is the son of God, or he is a liar and a fraud. This accomplishes a few things. Firstly, in order to NOT break the rules of the Religious Forum, one who posts on this thread either MUST agree with the former, or CANNOT post. Secondly, it ignores other possibilities, such as what was written in the NT was untrue, yet not the words of Jesus, demonstrating that Jesus was not a liar, just misrepresented... but again, taking this stance breaks the rules of the sub-forum. Thirdly, what if Jesus WAS a prophet and not the son of God, but used that type of presentation to motivate people to form a new morality and to mobilize them against oppressors. Seems to have worked pretty well. Doesn't make him a liar and a fraud, but the greatest motivational speaker/marketer that ever lived... but again, we run into the same problem. How can we have this kind of discussion without it delving into attacks against a religion?

From what I see, this thread is like a leading question. There is no possible answer that can be discussed except that Jesus is the son of God. So, I challenge the OP to present an opposing view that COULD be discussed here. If he can do so, great. If he cannot, I am dumping this thread "elsewhere" as bait.
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Cap, I must respectfully disagree. A false dichotomy has not been presented here. In order to even consider this question, we must first assume/believe/ know (depending upon your perspective) that according to scripture as well as extra-biblical accounts, Jesus Christ was indeed a real man who lived approximately 2000 years ago. Taking this into account, I must first point out that the unbelieving (unknowing) world cannot understand that truly knowing Christ and knowing who He is goes beyond just the words in scripture. It involves a personal relationship with Him and the Holy Spirit. Your premise of a false dichotomy is completely reliant upon what scripture says or the words of Christ himself....through eyewitness accounts as presented in the Gospels of the NT and inherently in the "legitimacy" or accuracy of these words. I would challenge that this very same question posed by the OP was one that was circulating during the years immediately following Christ's death. Many, many followers, who'd NEVER read the letters of Matthew, Luke, Peter, John or Paul (because of either illiteracy or the fact that they weren't collected, compiled or in circulation yet) chose to either believe or not to believe that Jesus was God's son. They either heard the Gospel preached by word of mouth or simply heard of the messiah through idle talk. Who knows? The fact remains, many believed without ever having seen, read, or even considered the specific words presented in the New Testament Gospels. An act of faith which is both difficult to understand and rarely duplicated these days.....but one that happened nonetheless. Evidence can be found in the survival of the church and the gospel of Jesus Christ even faced with the harshest levels of persecution.

So, what it boils down to is this......regardless of one's analysis of scripture, Christ either IS or IS NOT the Messiah. There can be no grey area. On a side-note, this is the "religious" sub-forum.....and that, I believe encompasses belief systems other than Christianity. It is obvious that there will be many who do not accept Christ's deity. As long as the discussion is meaningful, insightful, intelligent, and in no way malicious.....I fail to see how a poster would be forbidden to take the latter position in the OP. Ok, thanks, I'm done.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

shrubnose said:
How did a 1/2 Jewish guy end up with a Mexican name 2,000 years ago?

Any ideas on that?
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I know you're probably attempting to interject some comic relief here, right?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

maquiscat said:
When it comes down to the bare basics, most of the world's religions do indeed hold to a common underlying theme. It's the details that they argue about.
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Not even close to being true. Some teach works righteousness. Others teach salvation by faith. Some believe in a hell, others believe in reincarnation, still others think there is no heaven or hell.

Guess again.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
I have seen on several occassions where some proclaim respect or even "love" for Christ yet refer to Him as just a (good) man or just a prophet of God. The problem is that Jesus is very explicit in who He is and His relationship to God. In order to disbelieve he's the Son of God you have to believe everything He said is a lie. Would God choose, as His prophet, someone who leads people astray?

I realize this may be the shortest thread in DP history. Those who don't believe in Jesus certainly tend not to be too bothered about proclaiming Him a liar and it's not those people or believers, such as myself, that I'm talking or referring to. This thread is really addressing those that are "fence sitters" so to speak, who, while I appreciate them not wanting to show disrespect to Christ nevertheless cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus is a complete liar and fraud, or He truly what He proclaimed he is, The Son of God.

Just some late night musings when I should be sleeping. :)
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Or he was a good man who never proclaimed to be the son of god but later writers added stories, such as the miracle and a virgin birth (popular stories in the area at the time) in to circulation along with other stories being told about him etc.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

FluffyNinja said:
goes beyond just the words in scripture. It involves a personal relationship with Him and the Holy Spirit.
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Can you expound upon this personal relationship? Does it involve any characteristic of any personal relationship that anybody else experiences? Do ya'll hang out? Have conversations? Do each other favors?

If so what do yall discuss?

And if you never have discussions, or hang out, in what way is this a personal relationship?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

it's just me said:
Not even close to being true. Some teach works righteousness. Others teach salvation by faith. Some believe in a hell, others believe in reincarnation, still others think there is no heaven or hell.

Guess again.
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...others believe that women should be subject to genital mutilation, the rest do not.

Kinda blows the whole "all religions are the same" BS out of the water.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

roughdraft274 said:
Can you expound upon this personal relationship? Does it involve any characteristic of any personal relationship that anybody else experiences? Do ya'll hang out? Have conversations? Do each other favors?

If so what do yall discuss?

And if you never have discussions, or hang out, in what way is this a personal relationship?
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Yes, we do. But it's obvious that you have chosen the former position in the OP and me attempting to explain that relationship to you on this public forum would simply be me feeding your trollish post. I've been around too long to take that bait my friend. :lol:
Suffice to say those who've truly taken that leap of faith and have chosen that path understand the relationship....those who haven't will never know or understand. :shrug:
Have an awesome day!
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

FluffyNinja said:
Yes, we do. But it's obvious that you have chosen the former position in the OP and me attempting to explain that relationship to you on this public forum would simply be me feeding your trollish post. I've been around too long to take that bait my friend. :lol:
Suffice to say those who've truly taken that leap of faith and have chosen that path understand the relationship....those who haven't will never know or understand. :shrug:
Have an awesome day!
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Sorry you see it that way, it was in no way trollish. When someone tells me that they have a personal relationship with a god, or even the son of god, it makes me curious. There was no sarcasm in my post. I described, honestly, what in general I consider to be common characteristics of my own personal relationships and wanted to know how closely your definition of personal relationship matched my own.

I don't understand how you deem my post trollish. If you were to tell me that you have a personal relationship with the president wouldn't you expect questions like "what do yall talk about" "how often do yall hang out" etc?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

FluffyNinja said:
Yes, we do. But it's obvious that you have chosen the former position in the OP and me attempting to explain that relationship to you on this public forum would simply be me feeding your trollish post. I've been around too long to take that bait my friend. :lol:
Suffice to say those who've truly taken that leap of faith and have chosen that path understand the relationship....those who haven't will never know or understand. :shrug:
Have an awesome day!
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Tactful.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

FluffyNinja said:
So, what it boils down to is this......regardless of one's analysis of scripture, Christ either IS or IS NOT the Messiah. There can be no grey area. On a side-note, this is the "religious" sub-forum.....and that, I believe encompasses belief systems other than Christianity. It is obvious that there will be many who do not accept Christ's deity. As long as the discussion is meaningful, insightful, intelligent, and in no way malicious.....I fail to see how a poster would be forbidden to take the latter position in the OP. Ok, thanks, I'm done.
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I am going to have to disagree here also. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, because the conditions needed for the Jewish Messiah to be found have not yet been achieved. But, Jesus might or might not be the 'Christian Messiah'.

I will also point out the concept of the messiah can mean different things to different people. The mainstream Christian is having him 'the only and divine son of God'... and most of Christianity has the messiah as part of the trinity. THe Jewish concept is of a man who does extraordinary things... and will be known by his accomplishments.

So, the 'Jesus is either the messiah or not' is not as cut and dry statement to fit a dichotomy
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

roughdraft274 said:
Sorry you see it that way, it was in no way trollish. When someone tells me that they have a personal relationship with a god, or even the son of god, it makes me curious. There was no sarcasm in my post. I described, honestly, what in general I consider to be common characteristics of my own personal relationships and wanted to know how closely your definition of personal relationship matched my own.

I don't understand how you deem my post trollish. If you were to tell me that you have a personal relationship with the president wouldn't you expect questions like "what do yall talk about" "how often do yall hang out" etc?
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Well, if you are indeed as sincere as you claim, I'd absolutely love to share how my relationship with Christ is real and has changed my life! Just PM me and I'd be happy to share! I just feel that if I begin giving my testimony here on the open forum, others would take it as proselytizing or better yet, analyze every word and pick it apart. Im not interested in a debate on semantics here in the religious forum! :)
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

FluffyNinja said:
Well, if you are indeed as sincere as you claim, I'd absolutely love to share how my relationship with Christ is real and has changed my life! Just PM me and I'd be happy to share! I just feel that if I begin giving my testimony here on the open forum, others would take it as proselytizing or better yet, analyze every word and pick it apart. Im not interested in a debate on semantics here in the religious forum! :)
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Why on earth would you be scared to proselytize? This makes no sense to me. You have personal conversations and a relationship with a deity (I hope I'm not mischaracterizing what you said, you did affirm that you have conversations with Jesus) and you are scared that people will judge you for it? Did Jesus tell you to be careful about how much information he has given you can be made public?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

RAMOSS said:
I am going to have to disagree here also. Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, because the conditions needed for the Jewish Messiah to be found have not yet been achieved. But, Jesus might or might not be the 'Christian Messiah'.

I will also point out the concept of the messiah can mean different things to different people. The mainstream Christian is having him 'the only and divine son of God'... and most of Christianity has the messiah as part of the trinity. THe Jewish concept is of a man who does extraordinary things... and will be known by his accomplishments.

So, the 'Jesus is either the messiah or not' is not as cut and dry statement to fit a dichotomy
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Well I, of course, was addressing it from a Christian perspective. Knowing X, I also know that he presented it from a Christian perspective. I apologize in advance if this comes across as condescending but as a Christian I am ONLY concerned with Christ's deity from the Christian point of view. Each must answer the question of Christ's deity from his/her own position, of course.....but there can still be only two possibilities. He either IS or IS NOT. Jews who are still waiting on the Messiah, have obviously made a choice. I respect that.........sadly disagree....but respect their choice nonetheless. :shrug:
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

roughdraft274 said:
Why on earth would you be scared to proselytize? This makes no sense to me. You have personal conversations and a relationship with a deity (I hope I'm not mischaracterizing what you said, you did affirm that you have conversations with Jesus) and you are scared that people will judge you for it? Did Jesus tell you to be careful about how much information he has given you can be made public?
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How did you get "being scared" out of what was posted?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

roughdraft274 said:
Why on earth would you be scared to proselytize? This makes no sense to me. You have personal conversations and a relationship with a deity (I hope I'm not mischaracterizing what you said, you did affirm that you have conversations with Jesus) and you are scared that people will judge you for it? Did Jesus tell you to be careful about how much information he has given you can be made public?
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Not scared. That was your word, not mine! I've just become more wise in my walk, I suppose. I believe that God gifts wisdom among many other things....and that means the wisdom to know when to recognize an opportunity to evangelize and when to be silent. Christ Himself even tells his disciples as much. I am not ashamed of the gospel and never have been....just smart enough to chooses the right venue in which to defend my faith and my relationship with Christ.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

nota bene said:
How did you get "being scared" out of what was posted?
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FluffyNinja said:
I just feel that if I begin giving my testimony here on the open forum, others would take it as proselytizing or better yet, analyze every word and pick it apart.
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I didn't mean "being scared" as in calling him out. It just sounded like he was worried about what others would think of what he had to say. Maybe those words were too forceful and came across wrong, but the general sentiment of my question remains regardless.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

FluffyNinja said:
Not scared. That was your word, not mine! I've just become more wise in my walk, I suppose. I believe that God gifts wisdom among many other things....and that means the wisdom to know when to recognize an opportunity to evangelize and when to be silent. Christ Himself even tells his disciples as much. I am not ashamed of the gospel and never have been....just smart enough to chooses the right venue in which to defend my faith and my relationship with Christ.
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There are spots in the bible where Jesus tells his disciples not to defend their faith, or to wait for a better situation?

For me the verse that comes to mind is 1 Peter 3:14-16

14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.…
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Edit: and you are correct about the "afraid" part. I didn't mean it like that. It was a poor word choice.
 
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