Scriptural evidence for the Trinity

calamity · Jul 20, 2014

nota bene said:
That's nice.

Meh...it is what it is. Those of the Jewish faith probably have it right: Jesus is not the Messiah, and most definitely is not God.

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

it's just me said:
OT:

a. Plurality of persons

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;"

Genesis 3:22 "Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us"

Genesis 11:7 "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language,"

Been dealt With already, it's the magesterial plural.

Psalm 45:6-7 "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows." (A picture of Jesus)

Pslams 45 is not talking about Yahweh, you should know this, other People other than Yahweh are called God ...

Isaiah 6:8 'Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”' (Notice that the author uses both singular and plural)

God is talking to Isaiah .... he is'nt reffering to himself in the plural.

Psalm 110:1'"The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”' (Clearly an indication of the Messiah to come)

And one of the biggest arguments against the Trinity, Adonai (yahweh) says to Adoni (my lord, never used for yahweh, always used for a human, such as Abraham), this is the scripture Jesus uses most to refer to himself, and it argues best against the Trinity.

Hosea 1:7 "But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the Lord their God, and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses or horsemen.”

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts."

I don't see how those scriptures support the Trinity at all ....?

b. The Holy Spirit as God

Genesis 16:13 "Then the angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.” Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count...Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"

Ex 23:20-22 "Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him.."

Numbers 22:35 "But the angel of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I tell you.”

Judges 2:1-2 "Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you, and as for you, you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars."

Judges 6:11, 14 "Then the angel of the Lord came and sat under the oak that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite as his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the wine press in order to save it from the Midianites."

I don't see any holy spirit here ....? Nor do I see any evidence of the Trinity, the angel of the lord is exactly that ... an angel.

Proverbs 8:22 "“The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. “From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. “When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, Nor the first dust of the world. “When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, When He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary. So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth,And having my delight in the sons of men." (A description of the eternal Jesus)

No it isn't, its a personification of Wisdom as a woman.

Also you're using a biased translation

NRSV
22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,[c]
the first of his acts of long ago.

The Word in it's context clearly means that Yahweh Created her, he attained her in the begining of his work. And Yahweh established her.'

This HURTS the Trinity.

Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.” (A clear picture of the Trinity)
Isaiah 63:10 "But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy" (The Holy Spirit as God)
Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me"

Click to expand...

How is this the Trinity? the bible also talks about the spirit of Isaiah ... is Isaiah a Trinity?

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

NT

it's just me said:
Matt. 3:16-17 "After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and [j]lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” (A picture of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)

Matt. 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (The Great commission, which tells us in whose name we go forth)

What does that have to do With the Trinity? Just because it mentions 3 Things doesn't mean they are ontologically the same being ... and all persons.

1 Cor. 12:4-6 "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons." (God and the Holy Spirit)

Click to expand...

Yes God and his spirit are mentioned in the same Chapter ... so what?

2 Cor. 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." (Self explanatory)

1 Pet. 1:1-2 "To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure."

Click to expand...

Mentioning 3 Things in the same Chapter doesn't manke them ontologically one ....

Jude 20:21 "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

Click to expand...

How is this an argument for the Trinity?

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Click to expand...

The first Theos is Ho Theon, identifying a being or a person, the second one "Theos" is descriptivie, describing an aspect of something, i.e. Divine ... this has been dealt With over and over again ad nauseum.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

Romans 8:27 "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And before someone asks why Jesus appears to be talking to himself at times, it's because he is a distinct person from the Father. Athanasius tells us that the Son is not the Father but equal to the Father, The Holy Spirit is not the Son, but is equal to the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, but is equal to the Holy Spirit, for all are God, yet distinct from one another. Jehovah's Witnesses will say "We don't hold to the words of Athanasius, he is a mere man". Yet their creator, Charlie Russel, was a mere man, and will lead them into the hell they don't believe exists.

Click to expand...

There are NO ARGUMENTS here at all.

You havent posted anything that actually argues the Trinity, mentioning different Things in proximity isn't proof of anything.

I believe Jesus

John 20:
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

and

1 Corinthians 11:
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband[a] is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ.

John 17:
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

and COUNTLESS others ....

tosca1 · Jul 21, 2014

calamity said:
GOd does not become a person, and he clearly states that we are not to make images of him as though he were a person.

God did become a person, as Jesus.

Furthermore, where did it "clearly state" that "we are not to make images of him as though he were a person?"
How did you come to that conclusion?

it's just me · Jul 21, 2014

RGacky3 said:
Been dealt With already, it's the magesterial plural.

Pslams 45 is not talking about Yahweh, you should know this, other People other than Yahweh are called God ...

God is talking to Isaiah .... he is'nt reffering to himself in the plural.

And one of the biggest arguments against the Trinity, Adonai (yahweh) says to Adoni (my lord, never used for yahweh, always used for a human, such as Abraham), this is the scripture Jesus uses most to refer to himself, and it argues best against the Trinity.

I don't see how those scriptures support the Trinity at all ....?

I don't see any holy spirit here ....? Nor do I see any evidence of the Trinity, the angel of the lord is exactly that ... an angel.

No it isn't, its a personification of Wisdom as a woman.

Also you're using a biased translation

NRSV
22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,[c]
the first of his acts of long ago.

The Word in it's context clearly means that Yahweh Created her, he attained her in the begining of his work. And Yahweh established her.'

This HURTS the Trinity.

How is this the Trinity? the bible also talks about the spirit of Isaiah ... is Isaiah a Trinity?

It would be a waste of my time to even reply to this, since you claim the NASB is "biased" when in fact it is the very best translation going. So I'll answer you the way you answer everybody else - "you're wrong".

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

it's just me said:
It would be a waste of my time to even reply to this, since you claim the NASB is "biased" when in fact it is the very best translation going. So I'll answer you the way you answer everybody else - "you're wrong".

Proverbs 8:22 posits wisdom as a created being created by God, if you're not gonna respond to the rest fair enough, but the only reason must be that you can't.

it's just me · Jul 21, 2014

RGacky3 said:
Proverbs 8:22 posits wisdom as a created being created by God, if you're not gonna respond to the rest fair enough, but the only reason must be that you can't.

The only reason is that I'm not interested in getting into a passing contest with someone who calls the NASB, the most faithful translation there is, "biased". I suppose you would have me use the NWT.

Besides, I have made my case, this is the opinion of Bible scholars of every denomination, it is the opinion of the ancient Church, the very same Church that gave all y'all the Bible you are thumping.

It is sheer pride and arrogance to question the one and not the other.

Sababa · Jul 21, 2014

it's just me said:
Funny you should mention that, these citations are from Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology". Grudem has an MDiv from Westminster Seminary and a PhD from Cambridge. This book is highly regarded and has been called the best systematic theology of the 20th century. It is even used in some seminaries.

Although the man is a Calvinist and not my cup of tea from that point of view, he is hardly stupid and a hell of a lot more interesting and knowledgeable than any armchair theologian on this forum.

I feel bad for you that you feel the need to badmouth an expert to make yourself feel better, but then, that's what JW's do.

actually since he is wrong about what the Hebrew Bible actually says I don't care. I am not badmouth AN EXPERT, I am saying the Christian view of the Hebrew Bible to find Jesus is a misinterpretation of the text.

calamity · Jul 21, 2014

tosca1 said:
God did become a person, as Jesus.

Furthermore, where did it "clearly state" that "we are not to make images of him as though he were a person?"
How did you come to that conclusion?

The quote I cited in the Post 41, the first commandment.

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

it's just me said:
The only reason is that I'm not interested in getting into a passing contest with someone who calls the NASB, the most faithful translation there is, "biased". I suppose you would have me use the NWT.

Besides, I have made my case, this is the opinion of Bible scholars of every denomination, it is the opinion of the ancient Church, the very same Church that gave all y'all the Bible you are thumping.

It is sheer pride and arrogance to question the one and not the other.

No I used the NRSV.

But lets say the translateion is fair, and the right way to translate it is "possessed" so what? It doesn't matter, my argument stands all the same.

it's just me · Jul 21, 2014

RGacky3 said:
No I used the NRSV.

But lets say the translateion is fair, and the right way to translate it is "possessed" so what? It doesn't matter, my argument stands all the same.

No, it doesn't. Go find out when the Bible was compiled and when the Council of Nicea convened, then tell me that the Church that formulated the Trinity doctrine is at odds with the very Bible she assembled. If you all want Jesus to be a mere man, go forth and knock yourself completely and directly out, but history is not on your side.

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

it's just me said:
No, it doesn't. Go find out when the Bible was compiled and when the Council of Nicea convened, then tell me that the Church that formulated the Trinity doctrine is at odds with the very Bible she assembled. If you all want Jesus to be a mere man, go forth and knock yourself completely and directly out, but history is not on your side.

The New testament was recognized as holy scripture well before nicea, Siniaticus was written about 330 CE in Alexandria ... we have the Church fathers recognizing New testament authority well before Nicea.

Look do you have any arguments here?

Why does Paul say what he says about God being Christs superior? About Christ submitting to God and only receiving the authority that God gives him?

Why is Psalms 110:1 the most quotes scripture in Reference to Jesus when it most definately distinguishes Yahweh from "my lord" whome Yahweh speaks too?

Why does it say over and over and over again that The Father is teh God of Christ and Our God ... i.e. the Father is God over christ just as he has God over us?

I mean do you have anything or is tradition Your only argument left?

ludin · Jul 21, 2014

RGacky3 said:
The New testament was recognized as holy scripture well before nicea, Siniaticus was written about 330 CE in Alexandria ... we have the Church fathers recognizing New testament authority well before Nicea.

Look do you have any arguments here?

Why does Paul say what he says about God being Christs superior? About Christ submitting to God and only receiving the authority that God gives him?

Why is Psalms 110:1 the most quotes scripture in Reference to Jesus when it most definately distinguishes Yahweh from "my lord" whome Yahweh speaks too?

Why does it say over and over and over again that The Father is teh God of Christ and Our God ... i.e. the Father is God over christ just as he has God over us?

I mean do you have anything or is tradition Your only argument left?

Because they are 3 seperate beings but 1 entity i would say 1 nature is even a better term. So there is a God the father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Christ now however is Lord of all heaven and earth. that was his reward for the sacrifice that he made on the cross.

They exist as spirit so can take whatever form they wish. while still maintaining their individuality.

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

ludin said:
Because they are 3 seperate beings but 1 entity i would say 1 nature is even a better term. So there is a God the father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Christ now however is Lord of all heaven and earth. that was his reward for the sacrifice that he made on the cross.

They exist as spirit so can take whatever form they wish. while still maintaining their individuality.

I don't mean to offend you or anything, or disrespect Your beliefs, but I'm talking about the Biblical view Christology and theology. I'm not really interested in what the book of Mormon or other Mormon literature says.

ludin · Jul 21, 2014

RGacky3 said:
I don't mean to offend you or anything, or disrespect Your beliefs, but I'm talking about the Biblical view Christology and theology. I'm not really interested in what the book of Mormon or other Mormon literature says.

i am not mormon. I am non-demoninational Christian.
There is plenty of evidence in the bible for the trinity.

In fact it was at one of the councils that they set the doctrine of the Triune God.
I like the word triune better.

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

ludin said:
i am not mormon.

oh ... maybe I got you mixed up With someone, sorry.

The traditional Trinity, the Creeds, has always described the Trinity as one being.

If you're going to have a different definition you have to spell it out.

calamity · Jul 21, 2014

ludin said:
Because they are 3 seperate beings but 1 entity i would say 1 nature is even a better term. So there is a God the father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Christ now however is Lord of all heaven and earth. that was his reward for the sacrifice that he made on the cross.

They exist as spirit so can take whatever form they wish. while still maintaining their individuality.

If God is all then why must he be seen as three? It makes little sense and seems to me only an excuse to practice a sort of hybrid polytheism.

Islam and Judaism have it right--there are no other gods than God, IMO. Christians try to have it both ways: one god but in three forms. It's probably harmless. But, I see no need for it.

ludin · Jul 21, 2014

RGacky3 said:
oh ... maybe I got you mixed up With someone, sorry.

The traditional Trinity, the Creeds, has always described the Trinity as one being.

If you're going to have a different definition you have to spell it out.

Yep they are 1 being but 3 separate individuals or i should say 3 separate natures. nature is a better term i think to use here than individual.

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

ludin said:
Yep they are 1 being but 3 separate individuals or i should say 3 separate natures. nature is a better term i think to use here than individual.

Can you definine Your terms? What is a nature? What is an individual? And what is a being?

ludin · Jul 21, 2014

calamity said:
If God is all then why must he be seen as three? It makes little sense and seems to me only an excuse to practice a sort of hybrid polytheism.

Islam and Judaism have it right--there are no other gods than God, IMO. Christians try to have it both ways: one god but in three forms. It's probably harmless. But, I see no need for it.

Nope not at all. There reason for the trinity was to combat several herasies that were going around during the time.
Most of which tried to lower Christs status to something other than The Son of God and the Son of Man.

There is God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three of which are found in the bible. All three have always existed and work in unison and togetherness with each other.

They are all one God.

ludin · Jul 21, 2014

RGacky3 said:
Can you definine Your terms? What is a nature? What is an individual? And what is a being?

Well we have one entity which is God. in that sphere of God we have God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit
Each one are of the same nature but have different roles within the sphere in what they do.

nature would be their personality and view.

The Trinity: A Hierarchy? - Holy Trinity

they are all God but each has a role to play in that sphere

DeeDee · Jul 21, 2014

The trinity - God the Father - Always has been
Jesus the Son - Always has been with the Father - Took human form
Holy Spirit - Always has been with the Father - came to the disciples after death of Jesus comes
to all true believers of Jesus Christ
All this is repeated many times in the scriptures.

RGacky3 · Jul 21, 2014

ludin said:
Well we have one entity which is God. in that sphere of God we have God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit
Each one are of the same nature but have different roles within the sphere in what they do.

nature would be their personality and view.

The Trinity: A Hierarchy? - Holy Trinity

they are all God but each has a role to play in that sphere

The trinity - God the Father - Always has been
Jesus the Son - Always has been with the Father - Took human form
Holy Spirit - Always has been with the Father - came to the disciples after death of Jesus comes
to all true believers of Jesus Christ
All this is repeated many times in the scriptures.

Having a different view would'nt work With omniscience, they'd have to have the same view.

I already explained why Jesus MUST be subservient to GOd scripturally, from Corinthians and from Jesus Words himself along With Psalms 110 one, and many other scriptures.

God is a person, in the OT Yahweh has always been "he" one person, and that Yahweh, one person speaks to the messiah or "my lord" as David Calls him, and that one person Yahweh sends his messiah.

If it's repeated in scripture show me the scripture, I've posted some and I could post many more scriptures that rule out the Trinity out of hand and where Christ speaks about HIS God, and Our God, and where it is spoken of him (as the risen and exaulted Christ, being subservient to HIS God, and so on and so forth.

And the Shema, always a unitarian Jewish Creed, was supported By Jesus, had the jews been wrong about the nature of God Yahweh, Jesus would have been supporting herasy by agreeing With not only the Shema, but the 1rst Century Jewish interpretation of the Shema (the ONLY jewish interpretation of the Shema).

If you want to go over the scriptures in the Link I can do that easily, I've done it before on this forum many times.

ludin · Jul 21, 2014

RGacky3 said:
Having a different view would'nt work With omniscience, they'd have to have the same view.

I already explained why Jesus MUST be subservient to GOd scripturally, from Corinthians and from Jesus Words himself along With Psalms 110 one, and many other scriptures.

God is a person, in the OT Yahweh has always been "he" one person, and that Yahweh, one person speaks to the messiah or "my lord" as David Calls him, and that one person Yahweh sends his messiah.

If it's repeated in scripture show me the scripture, I've posted some and I could post many more scriptures that rule out the Trinity out of hand and where Christ speaks about HIS God, and Our God, and where it is spoken of him (as the risen and exaulted Christ, being subservient to HIS God, and so on and so forth.

And the Shema, always a unitarian Jewish Creed, was supported By Jesus, had the jews been wrong about the nature of God Yahweh, Jesus would have been supporting herasy by agreeing With not only the Shema, but the 1rst Century Jewish interpretation of the Shema (the ONLY jewish interpretation of the Shema).

If you want to go over the scriptures in the Link I can do that easily, I've done it before on this forum many times.

Obedience and subservant are not the same thing.

you are correct about the old testament because Christ had not come. if you look at the verse before the great commission God gave Christ all authority in heaven and earth. he is now Lord of all.

Then Christ refers to the Holy Spirit as something greater than himself. It is in this circle that they operate as one.

Yet as christ admitted himself he doesn't know when he is come back that is only for the father to know.
They are all part of the God head but they also seem to operate as 3 indistinct personalities.

there is nothing that rules out the trinity.

brothern · Jul 21, 2014

tosca1 said:
brothern said:

No, those are the remnants of the pre-Judaic polytheism. El and Yahweh are both Levantine deities that were conflated into the same god. "Elohim" (alternatively Eloah) is a primary god of worship. Which if you assume Yahwism as the dynastic cult of Judah, then yes, Yahweh is Elohim, but that doesn't invalid that meaning of the word. Meaning that it was used to refer to gods such as Moloch or Ba'al Hadad. E.G.,

The Old Testament is peppered with these polytheistic gods. Isaiah 27:1 mentions Yam, the Levantine god of the sea, who was charged by El to fight his son Ba'al Hadad in the Cycle of Ba'al, which is Ugaritic version of the same story that is presented in Psalms 74 where Yahweh also defeats Yam. Ba'ad Hadad steals away worshipers in Judges 8:33, or is defeated by Elijah in that 1 Kings passage quoted above. Moloch appears in Leviticus 18:21, where Yahweh warns against his evil deeds, and Asherah in Jeremiah 7:18 and Exodus 34:13. The morning star in Isaiah 14:12-15 is not Satan, but probably Shahar, and it's a possibility that Jeremiah 9:21 refers to Mot. And so on and so on ...

So while I'm not talking about the OT being a long edited version of ancient polytheistic myths, that you mistakenly believe talks about an invisible deity called God, but rather the fact that this God sacrificed himself, Jesus, to himself, to appease himself, of arbitrary rules that he himself created, that rather inconveniently screws over humans, who are called to accept him, so that they may be inhabited by him, to lead us to him.

Christianity cannot figure out the nature of their own god(s).

Click to expand...

Whoa. :mrgreen:

Christianity go by the Bible. Whatever your assumptions that are outside of our Bible.....though that may be what you believe....is however, not our belief. Therefore, it is not Christianity.

Those gods you mentioned are definitely not our gods. We have only One God - and He has revealed His nature by His numerous names.

Those assumptions are the Bible. Judaism, and Christianity, are of the same traditions as all of the ancient polytheistic Semitic religions.

Why else did you think that there's so much commonality between them and the Bible, like how the story of Noah, takes its influence from the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh? The Genesis Creation story find its roots in the Enuma Elish. Or the parallel between the Sumerian dispute myth Emesh and Enten, and Cain and Able (Genesis 4:1-8); Emesh identified with agriculture (Cain), and Enten identified with livestock; or as I mentioned in the previous post, how Ba'al is replaced by Yahweh in Job 41, where the older Ba'al story is found in the Cycle of Ba'al.

The creation of the Old Testament did not occur in a vacuum. It was nothing new or special, but simply borrowed from older pagan ancient Semitic religions. That's how all religions work! They are ever changing and evolving.

Scriptural evidence for the Trinity

calamity

Privileged

RGacky3

RGacky3

tosca1

it's just me

Non Bidenary

RGacky3

it's just me

Non Bidenary

Sababa

Well-known member

calamity

Privileged

RGacky3

it's just me

Non Bidenary

RGacky3

ludin

RGacky3

ludin

RGacky3

calamity

Privileged

ludin

RGacky3

ludin

ludin

DeeDee

New member

RGacky3

ludin

brothern