The resurrection

CLAX1911 · Jul 19, 2014

Gringo allstar said:
Then what do you believe in fiction??

Just because things aren't proven doesn't mean they are fiction.

Look you cant have it both ways, either Christ was who he said he was or he was a lunatic. If I wasn't convinced Christ was who he said he was (fact) I sure wouldn't claim to be a christain, what's the point??

I believe Christ is who he said he was, that doesn't make it a fact. You wouldn't believe a fact, facts just are.

My faith isn't so weak that I have to have proof, I am not an atheist.

If there was proof of God and that Jesus was the messiah, there would be no atheists, no Hindus, no religion what so ever. There would only facts, much like math. It's proven and there is no question.

Might I suggest reading thru Romans for a good overview of what it means to be christain. I will say this, a saving faith is not one thats embarrassed or afraid to claim the gospel as factually true.

May I suggest you evaluate your faith, because of it depends on proof, you would be an atheist. That is what I hear from my atheist friends, "I'll believe in God and Jesus if there were proof". Belief requires a choice, a leap of faith as it is sometimes referred to. Than you go and seek more information to support that belief. That it's backwards from proving something. You have to be a skeptic to prove something exists or doesn't exist.

Faith is difficult.

So don't make assumptions kid.

tosca1 · Jul 19, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
tosca1

So how can you say you believe in Jesus

- and yet at the same time you're practically saying He's full of bull?

CLAX1911 said:

Why do you misrepresent my argument?

Click to expand...

I didn't misrepresent your argument. Why don't you go back and re-read the flow of our conversation starting from page one to page 3?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/199336-resurrection.html

Originally Posted by CLAX1911
You have completely misunderstood my comment.

The "mythical hoops" I es referencing didn't have really anything to do with Christianity. It was a response to somebody else who was insisting that Christianity was completely different based on things the poster invented.

Oh yes, the mystical hoops has very much to do with Christianity. And I was the poster you responded to, and I didn't invent anything. Here, let's refresh your fogged memory.

When we say the "LIVING GOD," it not only means that we have a God who isn't dead, and a God who became incarnated, walked among us and got Resurrected.

We also mean that we have a God who IS CONTINUALLY LIVING IN US (CHRISTIANS).

Thus because He lives, we are also going to live.

Romans 8
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

When you invite Jesus Christ to come into your heart and life to be your Savior and Lord, confessing your sin and need for forgiveness, He answers your prayer. He enters your heart and life. Why?

The Christian life is more than difficult; it is humanly impossible to live. Only Jesus Christ can live it through you as He dwells within you. He wants to think with your mind, express Himself through your emotions, and speak through your voice, though you may be unconscious of it.

There is a throne in each of our lives. Until Jesus Christ comes into our lives, our self, or ego, is on the throne. But when Jesus comes in, He wants to assume His place of authority on His throne. We must step down and relinquish the authority of our lives to Him.

Thus the Christian life is not a person trying to imitate Christ; rather, it is Christ imparting His life to and living His life through the person.

The Christian life is not what you do for Him; it is what He does for and through you. The Christ-controlled life always produces the fruit of the Spirit as listed in Galatians 5:22-23.
Jesus Christ Living in the Christian :: Cru

CLAX1911

All religions have immortal gods. They are gods.

Click to expand...

tosca1 said:
If you'll fully read the post that you responded to, you'll see that it's not only about immortality that we are referring to when we say, "we have a living God."

tosca1

When we say the "LIVING GOD," it not only means that we have a God who isn't dead, and a God who became incarnated, walked among us and got Resurrected.

We also mean that we have a God who IS CONTINUALLY LIVING IN US (CHRISTIANS).

Continually living in us Christians.

Present tense.

Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post

Well, the reasons why we say we have a living God is explained above.
Take it or leave it.

CLAX1911

I know I know, you make up stories and mythical hoops to say your god is different. Either way, Christianity isn't much different than other religions.

Click to expand...

CLAX1911 · Jul 19, 2014

tosca1 said:
I didn't misrepresent your argument. Why don't you go back and re-read the flow of our conversation starting from page one?

Yes you did, I know what I meant better than you do. You misrepresented my argument.

Oh yes, the mystical hoops has very much to do with Christianity.

I never referenced any "mystical hoops" I said MYTHICAL hoops, and those hoops I referenced had nothing to do with Christianity. Again I know what I was thinking, you do not.

And I was the poster you responded to, and I didn't invent anything. Here, let's refresh your fogged memory.

Yes you are, you are saying a god without death is unique to Christianity, that simply isn't true.

I don't really see a point in going through and pointing out your strawman fallacy. My memory didn't "fog" that is an ad hominem.

So, now that I pointed out that everything you said was a conclusion you jumped to or a logical fallacy, are you interested in discussing this logically?

tosca1 · Jul 19, 2014

Coming back to your previous post, I'd say you're truly confused.

CLAX1911

I know I know, you make up stories and mythical hoops to say your god is different.

Isn't my God your God, too?

I thought you say you believe in Jesus? Didn't Jesus repeatedly talked about His Father?
Didn't Jesus die for us? Resurrected and ASCENDED?

It is written:

Romans 8
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

John 14
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

Are those verses, and the Ascension that you refer to as the "mythical hoops?"

Either way, Christianity isn't much different than other religions.

Do you know of any god who willingly became man in order to die for mankind?

Resurrected, and Ascended to Heaven?

So we've come full circle. :lol:

So how can you say you believe in Jesus

- and yet at the same time you're practically saying He's full of bull?

Gringo allstar · Jul 19, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
Just because things aren't proven doesn't mean they are fiction.

I believe Christ is who he said he was, that doesn't make it a fact. You wouldn't believe a fact, facts just are.

My faith isn't so weak that I have to have proof, I am not an atheist.

If there was proof of God and that Jesus was the messiah, there would be no atheists, no Hindus, no religion what so ever. There would only facts, much like math. It's proven and there is no question.

May I suggest you evaluate your faith, because of it depends on proof, you would be an atheist. That is what I hear from my atheist friends, "I'll believe in God and Jesus if there were proof". Belief requires a choice, a leap of faith as it is sometimes referred to. Than you go and seek more information to support that belief. That it's backwards from proving something. You have to be a skeptic to prove something exists or doesn't exist.

Faith is difficult.

So don't make assumptions kid.

The "proof" is the resurrection! Without that you have nothing. If you believe christ was who he said he was but don't believe it's a fact then you doubt.
2+2=4 fact, there is no doubt about that! But yet you wont claim what christ said as fact because you doubt. I think you want to stradle the fence on this because you value the opinion of men more then him, hence your noncommittal on the fact of what he said. Im actually on yourside man and I really hope your faith becomes fearless. Please read thru Romans because Paul can explain this waaay better then me.

tosca1 · Jul 19, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
Yes you did, I know what I meant better than you do. You misrepresented my argument.

I never referenced any "mystical hoops" I said MYTHICAL hoops, and those hoops I referenced had nothing to do with Christianity. Again I know what I was thinking, you do not.

I corrected that. So you said mythical.

Yes you are, you are saying a god without death is unique to Christianity, that simply isn't true.

What is so hard to understand? I've explained in details what we mean by a "LIVING GOD."

So, now that I pointed out that everything you said was a conclusion you jumped to or a logical fallacy, are you interested in discussing this logically?

I am discussing this logically, if you hadn't noticed.

I'm systematically proving that you don't make any sense at all.

tosca1 · Jul 19, 2014

How is Christianity Any Different Than Other Religions?

A crucial distinctive about Christianity is that God cared enough about humankind to reach down and compassionately provide a way for us to be in a right relationship with Him. In other religions, people vainly attempt to reach God and earn their own salvation by doing good deeds and by refraining from bad behavior.

The problem for those people is that no one can ever be good enough to earn his own salvation. In other words, no one can ever reach God through his own efforts. That is why God made a way for us by sending His Son Jesus to live a holy and sinless life and suffer the payment for our sins. In this way, if we believe in Jesus and choose to follow Him, we are forgiven by God and given new life.

Another critical difference is that in Christianity people can truly have genuine assurance of their salvation. They can be certain that they are going to heaven because their salvation is anchored in what Jesus already did for them. As a result, Christians have peace in their hearts about where they will go when their lives on earth are finished.

In other faiths, people cannot be assured that they will go to heaven because they can never know if they have done enough good works to earn God’s favor or forgiveness. They have to continually try to earn their salvation—even until their last day and dying breath. They cannot experience the restful assurance that God gives those who trust in Jesus Christ.

How is Christianity Any Different Than Other Religions?: Spiritual Life in God

CLAX1911 · Jul 19, 2014

tosca1 said:
Coming back to your previous post, I'd say you're truly confused.

Well your failure to understand isn't exactly my confusion.

Isn't my God your God, too?

I am not exactly sure. Sometimes it seems as though your god is a book.

I thought you say you believe in Jesus? Didn't Jesus repeatedly talked about His Father?
Didn't Jesus die for us? Resurrected and ASCENDED?

I can believe that.

Are those verses, and the Ascension that you refer to as the "mythical hoops?"

You are suck on that strawman fallacy aren't you

The mythical hoops I was referring to have nothing to do with Christianity, the bible, or religion in general. It had to do with reasoning skills.

Do you know of any god who willingly became man in order to die for mankind?

Resurrected, and Ascended to Heaven?

Now you are focusing on the uniqueness of Christianity.

Christ threw himself at the mercy of his people, the fact that he was mortal is what makes Christianity unique. Becoming immortal doesn't.

So we've come full circle.

Not possible, you would have had to be in the circle to begin with. You are still struggling trying to make your strawman fallacy into a legitimate side of the debate.

So how can you say you believe in Jesus

- and yet at the same time you're practically saying He's full of bull?

Why do you misrepresent my argument?

CLAX1911 · Jul 19, 2014

tosca1 said:
I corrected that. So you said mythical.

You are still mistaken with what I was referring to.

What is so hard to understand? I've explained in details what we mean by a "LIVING GOD."

And I read it. You are saying that Christ is without death, thus living, eternally, forever. It still isn't unique to Christianity.

I am discussing this logically, if you hadn't noticed.

Fallacy after fallacy? No I didn't notice the logic. I noticed the ad hominem and strawman fallacies.

I'm systematically proving that you don't make any sense at all.

You are absolutely failing at it.

Try doing so without the fallacy, you just might get somewhere.

When I tell you that you misrepresented my argument, that is if you were at all interested in making a logical argument, you are supposed to ask me to explain, not just belligerently tell me thatyou understood my argument, and then make the same mistake yet again.

This is why Christianity is on the decline in the western world, your tool of persuasion is belligerence.

tosca1 · Jul 19, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
Now you are focusing on the uniqueness of Christianity.

:shock:

Hello?

Originally Posted by Gringo allstar

Christ was resurrected and walked with his followers and is a actual person who is alive.

Clax

That still isn't unique to Christianity.

Click to expand...

Isn't that what you're arguing about? That Christianity is not unique? :mrgreen:

Christ threw himself at the mercy of his people, the fact that he was mortal is what makes Christianity unique. Becoming immortal doesn't.

Hello again?

What did I mean when I said He became man in order to die for us? :lol:

And btw, that angle has already been brought up. His being human was repeatedly explained to you.
And the uniqueness of Christianity does not stop there. Just to point that out to you.

It's not just one thing. It's the combination of all things that's been explained.

Bye Clax......au revoir.....adios, amigo.

CLAX1911 · Jul 19, 2014

Gringo allstar said:
The "proof" is the resurrection! Without that you have nothing. If you believe christ was who he said he was but don't believe it's a fact then you doubt.

I can believe it's a fact, but I cannot prove it to be fact.

2+2=4 fact, there is no doubt about that! But yet you wont claim what christ said as fact because you doubt.

That is not true at all. Believing something without proof is the absolute opposite of doubt.

I think you want to stradle the fence on this because you value the opinion of men more then him, hence your noncommittal on the fact of what he said.

I don't find much value in your assessments.

Im actually on yourside man and I really hope your faith becomes fearless.

It is, what you see as doubt, fear, and noncommittal blah blah blah, is actually the way to evangelize to people with weak or budding faith. There isn't any reason to evangelize to people with string faith. And the attitude that "IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE EXACTLY WHAT I TELL YOU TO BELIEVE YOU AREN'T CHRISTIAN!!!" Is an absolute middle finger to all of those poor in spirit. If I had weak faith, you would not be convincing me of anything but that Christians are belligerent dogmatic jerks. My "spirtual" journey was not checkpointed by people ranting and raving about absolute facts that cannot be proven and that one must take leave of their senses in order to be Christian. The ministers I met explained belief leads to faith, faith is trust, and we in the 20th century can only go by trust because we didn't actually see the miracles occur. Basically put, believing is seeing and faith is acceptance that what you see is the truth.

If there was proof there would be no need for faith. The leap of faith would just be taken for granted.

Please read thru Romans because Paul can explain this waaay better then me.

I have read Romans, that's how I know you are full of it.

CLAX1911 · Jul 19, 2014

tosca1 said:
:shock:

Hello?

Don't blame me for your failure to understand.

Isn't that what you're arguing about? That Christianity is not unique? :mrgreen:

No, yet another strawman fallacy. I said the aspect of a deathless or eternally living god isn't unique to Christianity.

Stop playing dumb.

Hello again?

What did I mean when I said He became man in order to die for us?

Moving the goal posts for the satisfaction of being right.

And btw, that angle has already been brought up. His being human was repeatedly explained to you.
And the uniqueness of Christianity does not stop there. Just to point that out to you.

Again, that was never my point. Thanks again for missing it.

It's not just one thing. It's the combination of all things that's been explained.

It's mostly that one thing.

Bye Clax......au revoir.....adios, amigo.

The only thing one can do in an argument that they have no logical standing in. Run away.

Pfft predictable outcome.

Gringo allstar · Jul 19, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
I can believe it's a fact, but I cannot prove it to be fact.

That is not true at all. Believing something without proof is the absolute opposite of doubt.

I don't find much value in your assessments. It is, what you see as doubt, fear, and noncommittal blah blah blah, is actually the way to evangelize to people with weak or budding faith. There isn't any reason to evangelize to people with string faith. And the attitude that "IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE EXACTLY WHAT I TELL YOU TO BELIEVE YOU AREN'T CHRISTIAN!!!" Is an absolute middle finger to all of those poor in spirit. If I had weak faith, you would not be convincing me of anything but that Christians are belligerent dogmatic jerks. My "spirtual" journey was not checkpointed by people ranting and raving about absolute facts that cannot be proven and that one must take leave of their senses in order to be Christian. The ministers I met explained belief leads to faith, faith is trust, and we in the 20th century can only go by trust because we didn't actually see the miracles occur. Basically put, believing is seeing and faith is acceptance that what you see is the truth.

If there was proof there would be no need for faith. The leap of faith would just be taken for granted.

I have read Romans, that's how I know you are full of it.

Not really sure what half your rant is about but it was interesting to read. How do you explain the miracles that christ performed and what was the purpose of them? Also when Nicodemus came to christ and asked how does one become born again, what was the meaning behind Jesus's answer?
Maybe try and not be so hostile with your response because im not trying to pick a fight with you. Seriously.

CLAX1911 · Jul 19, 2014

Gringo allstar said:
Not really sure what half your rant is about but it was interesting to read.

More ad hominem, this is so interesting coming from people that claim to be Christian.

How do you explain the miracles that christ performed and what was the purpose of them?

He is God.

Also when Nicodemus came to christ and asked how does one become born again, what was the meaning behind Jesus's answer?

basically when one goes from acceptance to faith. That what Jesus had said was truth.

I don't really need Sunday school classes from somebody that has such little understanding.

Maybe try and not be so hostile with your response because im not trying to pick a fight with you. Seriously.

Stop misrepresenting everything I say.

You seem to be playing the same mind games Tosca was.

Gringo allstar · Jul 20, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
Well your failure to understand isn't exactly my confusion.

I am not exactly sure. Sometimes it seems as though your god is a book.

I can believe that.

You are suck on that strawman fallacy aren't you

The mythical hoops I was referring to have nothing to do with Christianity, the bible, or religion in general. It had to do with reasoning skills.

Now you are focusing on the uniqueness of Christianity.

Christ threw himself at the mercy of his people, the fact that he was mortal is what makes Christianity unique. Becoming immortal doesn't.

Not possible, you would have had to be in the circle to begin with. You are still struggling trying to make your strawman fallacy into a legitimate side of the debate.

Why do you misrepresent my argument?

Christ threw himself at the mercy of his people, are you saying he wasnt sure of the outcome, why would he need the mercy of men?

And how is he mortal when he voluntarily layed his life down only to rise up 3 days later just like he said he would. Wouldn't he be the very
Definition of immortal knowing that he has existed forever?

CLAX1911 · Jul 20, 2014

Gringo allstar said:
Christ threw himself at the mercy of his people, are you saying he wasnt sure of the outcome, why would he need the mercy of menAnd how is he mortal when he voluntarily layed his life down only to rise up 3 days later just like he said he would. Wouldn't he be the very
Definition of immortal knowing that he has existed forever?

Your argument is a bit schizophrenic. I said that the immortality of god didn't make him different than any other god and you argued with me, now you are saying the same thing you argued against me about.

I think you are simply a contrarian.

Gringo allstar · Jul 20, 2014

CLAX1911 said:
More ad hominem, this is so interesting coming from people that claim to be Christian.

He is God.

basically when one goes from acceptance to faith. That what Jesus had said was truth.

I don't really need Sunday school classes from somebody that has such little understanding.

Stop misrepresenting everything I say.

You seem to be playing the same mind games Tosca was.

This post shows me you have no understanding of scriptures. You may have read them before but you have no discernment. Might I suggest J I Packard's Knowing God as a good place to start. Being snarky only gets you so far.

CLAX1911 · Jul 20, 2014

Gringo allstar said:
This post shows me you have no understanding of scriptures. You may have read them before but you have no discernment. Might I suggest J I Packard's Knowing God as a good place to start. Being snarky only gets you so far.

I am not concerned with your opinions.

tosca1 · Jul 20, 2014

The good thing about Clax is that at least he says he believes in Jesus. It's true, faith does not require any proof.

But I think he errs seriously when he tries hard to lump Jesus - since that's Who Christianity is - with other religions, and other gods.

I don't know why he tries to pin the uniqueness of Christianity mostly to the mortality of Jesus when in fact there are gods who were/are mortals, who had walked and walks among us. Isn't the emperor of Japan considered a god?

List of people who have been considered deities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Furthermore, what was the purpose of the Resurrection and the Ascension if not to be major part of the evidence, as to the uniqueness of Christianity? Those were all for nothing? They could've been left out and it wouldn't make a difference?

Without those - Resurrection and Ascension - we're left with a mortal who had claimed to be the Son of God, and died for that belief.

End of the story.

His own brothers and people in his hometown didn't believe any of his claim.
He was just the son of a carpenter to them. Some probably thought he had some loose marbles. Or suspected he had other worldly motives - perhaps some even thought he was starting a scam.

What would distinguish Jesus from false claimants? From radicals who want to make changes, and dying for the cause?
How could He have proved He is indeed the Son of God - The Messiah?

You think Christianity would still be alive and strong today without the Resurrection and the Ascension?

Anyway, aren't we supposed to uphold Christianity, and make disciples of men?

The resurrection

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

tosca1

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

tosca1

Gringo allstar

tosca1

tosca1

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

tosca1

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

Gringo allstar

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

Gringo allstar

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

Gringo allstar

CLAX1911

Supreme knower of all

tosca1