Why Be Good?

SATAN, THE SMOKING GUN

“For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.” (James 1:13-14)

Satan is the tempter. The above verse seems to indicate that no individual is willfully tempted by God. Consider now Matthew 4:1 – “Then Jesus was led by the (Holy) Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.” Taken in conjunction with each other, this appears at first glance to be a clear cut case of a Biblical contradiction. God does not tempt, but it is clear His purpose was for Jesus to be tempted, and He, as the Holy Spirit, even led Jesus to that end. There are two ways of answering this dilemma without chucking our Bibles into the trash. The first would be to make the assumption that Matthew 4:1 indicates that no natural man is tempted by God. Jesus would therefore not fall into this category because He is also fully God. The second explanation, and the one I prefer, is that God does not tempt anyone, He allows Satan to do it – He allows Satan to engage in this activity, subject, of course, to God’s permissible will. We see this actually occur in Job chapters 1 and 2.

With this in mind, we go back to the Garden of Eden and who do we find? That ancient serpent, Satan (Revelation 20:2). What is he doing there? Was Adam not evicted from the garden because of his fall into sin? Why wasn’t Satan? If the garden is a sanctified, holy area, one would think that God would have the sovereign power and desire to keep it that way. Unless, of course, there was a divine purpose involved for Satan to be there. And what would that purpose be? To tempt Adam into the fall so that man would come into the knowledge of good and evil, overcome it through the power Of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and be raised complete in the image and likeness of God. Man cannot be an overcomer until he has something to overcome, like sin and Satan. In my mind, Satan is the “smoking gun” who served the greater purpose of God in the Garden of Eden.

One other observation: Whereas Genesis 1:26 states that God was to create man in His own image and likeness, Genesis 1:27 shows that man was only created in God’s “image.” It wasn’t until Genesis 3:22 when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he became “like” God.

To Summarize:

1. Man was to be created in the likeness and image of God (Genesis 1:26).

2. Part of this “likeness” was a knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22)

3. For Adam to be truly “like” God, he had to acquire a knowledge of evil.

4. The means to that end was eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

5. To do that a “tempter” was likely needed to entice Adam into sin.

6. God provided, or allowed, Satan as the tempter.

7. God knew in advance what the outcome would be, but allowed it anyway.

8. God knew atonement would be required, and provided Jesus Christ as the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth” (Revelation 13:8).

9. Man achieves the likeness of God, acquires a knowledge of and overcomes evil, partakes of Christ, and is reunited in paradise with God. Man is now an overcomer with a keen knowledge of evil.

The key to all this remains, “Is acquiring a knowledge of good and evil a prerequisite to coming into the likeness and image of God? If the answer is yes, I think Adam has to eat from that tree, and God has to make it happen. If the answer is no, then I think you have to look back to Genesis 3:22 and reconcile that with Genesis 1:26, explaining how Adam is “like” God, but at the same time lacks a knowledge of good and evil. Also, how does man acquire that knowledge without eating of the fruit of that tree?

(The Righter Report)

Manny said:

Why be good- If we walk in the way of the Lord, it's the path of righteousness. Not only does good acts make for a better world around us, it changes us from within.

Likewise, commit evil or associate with evil leads to self-destruction. I think that should be self-evident. Try hanging out with gangsters, or people who live a life based on injustice, manipulation, exploitation of others for them selves. Do you think they can be trusted? No. You are next.

The concept is like 'karma', but it's very simple and logical. There is no magic here. That which we send out into the world returns to us.

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"Surely, goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell I the house of the Lord forever."

tosca1 said:

It is not obedience out of fear.

A practicing Christian will automatically reflect the teachings of Jesus in his everyday lives....because he has Jesus in him.

Why is thinking of an afterlife - the desire to be among those to enter the Kingdom of God, not acting in "godly" fashion? There is nothing "ungodly" about it. Jesus talked about it. It's God's promised reward!

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I understand you misunderstood. I said if your motivation was the afterlife, then it is not thinking in a godly fashion. It is thinking about self. You should act for good apart from the notion of a godly reward.

Sababa said:

I understand you misunderstood. I said if your motivation was the afterlife, then it is not thinking in a godly fashion. It is thinking about self. You should act for good apart from the notion of a godly reward.

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I don't know if we can really say that having the afterlife as the motivation is ungodly.

After all, Jesus used the afterlife as a motivation for us.


The greatest motivation would be that life in this world is only temporary.
Actually, we're supposed to think and be reminded of that promise!
That's the morale booster for a Christian - knowing that all our sufferings is but temporary.
That's why we can bravely face death - because to us, it's but a temporary "sleep."


Just read the Beatitudes as an example. All the fulfillment of those promises will happen in the afterlife.


The Beatitudes

He said:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Sababa said:

For Christianity, the teaching is to use Jesus as a role model and to show the world how glorious the faith is to you, not beat them over the head with hell fire and damnation. Jews tend to not focus on our various afterlife stories. It is not important, we are in the here and now and one of the biggest jobs for Jews is to leave the world a better place for us having been here. How we interpret that is different for sure. But in the end we feed the hungry before was ask for prayers, we act out of our own convictions and not fear or divine retribution (to a point) and we try to find a way to live in the world we are in, not one of the past.

The fact is that is also how many Christians live their lives. That is how religion should help motivate us for greater things. Sadly for some they see religion as a battle ax and that is troubling.

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The Christian life has a very high standard and is impossible to achieve simply because no one is perfect.

I speak for myself. It is my Christian belief that when you accept and believe in Christ, you become filled with the Holy Spirit and will abide in Christ. THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE LAW. His indwelling presence will be reflected in what I do.


Some people say, "I witness for Christ by living a good life." But it is not enough to live a good life. Many non-Christians live fine, moral, ethical lives. According to the Lord Jesus, the only way to demonstrate that you are truly following Him is to produce fruit, which includes introducing others to our Savior as well as living holy lives. And the only way you can produce fruit is through the power of the Holy Spirit.

How the Holy Spirit Changes You from the Inside Out

Not only do you receive a supernatural power for witnessing when you are filled with the Spirit, but your personality also begins to change. As you continue to walk in the control and power of the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit becomes increasingly obvious in your life.

In Galatians 5:22, 23, Paul explains, "When the Holy Spirit controls our lives He will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control..."

The Christian's relationship with the Holy Spirit is both critical and progressive: critical, in that one learns that the Christian life is a life of faith rather than a life of works and has no reference to emotions ("The just shall live by faith."); progressive, in that, as one walks consistently in the power and control of the Holy Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit will be produced in his life.

A word of caution is in order. Do not seek an emotional or mystical experience. Do not depend on mystical impressions. The Word of God must be the basis of your spiritual growth. There is an interesting parallel between Ephesians 5:18, which admonishes us to be constantly and continually directed and empowered by the Holy Spirit, and Colossians 3:16, which admonishes us to "let the Word of Christ richly dwell within you..."


http://www.cru.org/training-and-gro...-spirit/04-what-does-it-mean-to-be-filled.htm



Additional verses of interest:


Ephesians 5
Walk In The Light
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

Logicman said:

One other observation: Whereas Genesis 1:26 states that God was to create man in His own image and likeness, Genesis 1:27 shows that man was only created in God’s “image.” It wasn’t until Genesis 3:22 when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he became “like” God.

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That is a rather self inflating concept but the Bible truly tells otherwise.

In Genesis it tells that AFTER getting that POISONED knowledge of "good and bad" then Adam and Eve had two maladaptive sons in both Cain and Able, and THEN in Genesis 5:3 it tells that Adam had a third son who the text SPECIFICALLY declares that the child was made in the image and likeness of his self the image of Adam) and NOT (not) in the image of God, see link here THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF ADAM.

Humans were originally created in the image of God BUT then after the fall the humans were no longer in that image but then in the image of sinful man, Genesis 3:5

Eating of that sinful (poisoned) knowledge made humanity to be NOT like God.

It can be said that eventually God would have let them eat of that knowledge, but that still means waiting until humans were prepared and fitting to receive that knowledge, and since we did it wrong then it has remained as poison ever after and even ongoing as poisoned knowledge still today and beyond.

JP Cusick said:

That is a rather self inflating concept but the Bible truly tells otherwise.

In Genesis it tells that AFTER getting that POISONED knowledge of "good and bad" then Adam and Eve had two maladaptive sons in both Cain and Able, and THEN in Genesis 5:3 it tells that Adam had a third son who the text SPECIFICALLY declares that the child was made in the image and likeness of his self the image of Adam) and NOT (not) in the image of God, see link here THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF ADAM.

Humans were originally created in the image of God BUT then after the fall the humans were no longer in that image but then in the image of sinful man, Genesis 3:5

Eating of that sinful (poisoned) knowledge made humanity to be NOT like God.

It can be said that eventually God would have let them eat of that knowledge, but that still means waiting until humans were prepared and fitting to receive that knowledge, and since we did it wrong then it has remained as poison ever after and even ongoing as poisoned knowledge still today and beyond.

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I stand by what I previously posted.

The image of God IS knowing good and evil. And whatever shortcomings man had after the fall, God provided a remedy in the persons of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God living within a believer and beginning the process of progressive sanctification (Google that last concept).

For a Christian, one way of looking at the Commandments of God is not to look at them as THE LAW -
but to see them as your promise or vow to Him.

Instead of seeing it as, "Thou shalt not....,"

.......see it as, "I promise not to......"


I think when we regard it that way, we do not obey the 10 Commandments because we have to.

We obey His Commandments because we want to.

Logicman said:

I stand by what I previously posted.

The image of God IS knowing good and evil.

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That is far away from what the Bible says.

First mankind was created in God's image, then later can the sinful knowledge, and then later still came children in the image of Adam and not of God, Genesis 5:3

So yes - you go ahead and stand by your previous claims.

JP Cusick said:

That is far away from what the Bible says.

First mankind was created in God's image, then later can the sinful knowledge, and then later still came children in the image of Adam and not of God, Genesis 5:3

So yes - you go ahead and stand by your previous claims.

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Hey, if you want to stay in Genesis you'll never gain a full understanding of where man is at present, or where he'll be in the hereafter with Christ.

Logicman said:

Hey, if you want to stay in Genesis you'll never gain a full understanding of where man is at present, or where he'll be in the hereafter with Christ.

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Actually I learned it from Jesus who tells us to go back to the BEGINNING (Genesis) to see how things are meant to be, see Matthew 19:4-8 as example.

Where is mankind in the present? Answer: Mankind is lost and confused.

But still - I really did give reference to the present day in that the poisoned knowledge is clear and active in the present worldwide as a worldwide disease and dysfunction of all of humanity.

We can see it in every Country because all peoples (Countries) view their-selves as the "good guys" and some other Country as the "bad guys" which is an expression of that same old poisoned knowledge of "good and bad" (or evil), and it goes on between individuals too where individual people view their self as better than other people, or some other Church is bad while their Church is the "good" one, and that is the basis of all competition to dispute who or better (the good guys) and who is lesser (the bad guys).

Just look at the title of this thread, in that it is wrestling with that same poisoned knowledge of whatever is "good or bad" (or evil) because the entire world today is still infected with that same poisoned and even cursed knowledge of "good and bad".

The question of why be good? or why not be bad? when in fact there is no real nor solid definition of what is "good or bad" because humanity does not know how to answer that question of what is good or bad? The real answer is that the "knowledge of good and bad" is poison and a curse to anyone and everyone who takes part in it.

So if we today want to do what is right then we need to follow the example of Jesus and see what happened in the BEGINNING and then conform our selves to the lessons of that rightful and of that wrongful beginning.

JP Cusick said:

Actually I learned it from Jesus who tells us to go back to the BEGINNING (Genesis) to see how things are meant to be, see Matthew 19:4-8 as example.

Where is mankind in the present? Answer: Mankind is lost and confused.

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Not me, and not the Christians I know. We know we're saved and that we've got a tremendous future ahead of us.

JP Cusick said:

But still - I really did give reference to the present day in that the poisoned knowledge is clear and active in the present worldwide as a worldwide disease and dysfunction of all of humanity.

We can see it in every Country because all peoples (Countries) view their-selves as the "good guys" and some other Country as the "bad guys" which is an expression of that same old poisoned knowledge of "good and bad" (or evil), and it goes on between individuals too where individual people view their self as better than other people, or some other Church is bad while their Church is the "good" one, and that is the basis of all competition to dispute who or better (the good guys) and who is lesser (the bad guys).

Just look at the title of this thread, in that it is wrestling with that same poisoned knowledge of whatever is "good or bad" (or evil) because the entire world today is still infected with that same poisoned and even cursed knowledge of "good and bad".

The question of why be good? or why not be bad? when in fact there is no real nor solid definition of what is "good or bad" because humanity does not know how to answer that question of what is good or bad? The real answer is that the "knowledge of good and bad" is poison and a curse to anyone and everyone who takes part in it.

So if we today want to do what is right then we need to follow the example of Jesus and see what happened in the BEGINNING and then conform our selves to the lessons of that rightful and of that wrongful beginning.

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The more you and anyone else reads the Bible the more you should know true good and evil. Anyone who is lost and confused come to the good book and Jesus Christ, and the truth will set you free.

Logicman said:

you should know true good and evil.

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Just for the sake of discussion - and so that I will not derail this thread - you do not answer the question.

The thread topic and question is this = Why be good?

I, an immoral atheist who cannot possibly know right from wrong because I don't worship any gods, am good for many reasons. Let me list a few. It pleases me to bring happiness and comfort to others. When I am good to others, they are good to me. I like living in a society where people are good and act to support that.

I had a longer list, but everything after these three were just derivations from them. Sounds like being good is a pretty easy conclusion to reach. But then again, it seems like the trouble comes when people try to define good as something besides acting with kindness, respect, and compassion. They throw in things like "don't be gay" or "obey this or that ruler" or "don't be good towards this or that group of people we consider outsiders". That's when it gets messy.

But the idea that anyone needs external coaching in order to be good, or that goodness is invalidated from lack of allegiance to one banner or another... that's nonsense.

JP Cusick said:

Just for the sake of discussion - and so that I will not derail this thread - you do not answer the question.

The thread topic and question is this = Why be good?

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That's already been answered by others here: To benefit God, humanity, and one's own family & self.

One does not need Religion to show them how to live. This can and should be decided using logic. It is not logical to harm others because in doing so, ultimately, one will cause harm to him or herself. People are stronger in groups than as individuals.

Paschendale said:

I, an immoral atheist who cannot possibly know right from wrong because I don't worship any gods, am good for many reasons. Let me list a few. It pleases me to bring happiness and comfort to others. When I am good to others, they are good to me. I like living in a society where people are good and act to support that.

I had a longer list, but everything after these three were just derivations from them. Sounds like being good is a pretty easy conclusion to reach. But then again, it seems like the trouble comes when people try to define good as something besides acting with kindness, respect, and compassion. They throw in things like "don't be gay" or "obey this or that ruler" or "don't be good towards this or that group of people we consider outsiders". That's when it gets messy.

But the idea that anyone needs external coaching in order to be good, or that goodness is invalidated from lack of allegiance to one banner or another... that's nonsense.

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I see this as classic - you do not know right from wrong - but you can decide "good from bad" - as there it is completely backwards.

My posting #9 =

Just saying - FYI.

:surrender

it's just me said:

This is a strawman argument and it always has been. We do good because it is better for others and ultimately for ourselves. Why we have to continually explain this to people who have no idea of what we really do believe or how we live our lives is a mystery to me.

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It is not a strawman argument, I don't think you know what a straw man is. A strawman is a logical fallacy where an opponent misrepresents your argument to make it easily defeated.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since the OP wasn't misrepresenting anybody's argument it cannot be a strawman fallacy.

Now to address your claim. You say that "we do good because it is better for others..." When you say "we" who is we? Christians? Your church, your domination? And if you say that these others are doing good because it is better for others, how do you know their motivations? Could they be doing it just to curry favor of their god? And if not how would you know that? Can you know whatis in the hearts of man?

I would say it's better in the future for you not to say your collective agrees with you. Say instead that you do good things because you feel that it is better so on... And let the pieces fall where they may.

It seems you are attempting to defend Christianity, and if you look art the entirety of Christianity there is no defense for it, even the bible confirms this Romans 3:23. All people are not good, and fall short of the Grace of God. Now if you defined Jesus the Christ, that I can stand by, because he is your only hope for salvation. Christianity isn't, Christianity is a express elevator to hell without Christ

Why Christians have to explain this is because of two reasons. First is because I personally have been called filth, a degenerate, a demon, a cultist and a sick mockery by people claiming to be Christians. But when I read the bible it specifically tells the followers of Christ not too do that. Second reason: There is a chasm of ambiguity in Christianity. There are hundreds of denominations and most of them say the other denominations are wrong and they are the one true denomination. Now this means one of two things, Christians have liberty to follow different beliefs and group together based on some similarities, or Christianity is a collective and it's own worst enemy. I prefer the former but generally speaking Christians don't like that concept because it means that the bible and thus all of religion is open to interpretation.

The story of the rich man and the rabbi sounds like a liberal politician: "vote for me and I'll feed you".

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Or any politician or any person for that matter. Why is it necessary for everything to be political?

CLAX1911 said:

It is not a strawman argument, I don't think you know what a straw man is.

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I don't think YOU do. He was misrepresenting Christian belief and practice.

You say that "we do good because it is better for others..." When you say "we" who is we? Christians? Your church, your domination?

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There is only one Church, if you knew Christian belief you would know that.

First is because I personally have been called filth, a degenerate, a demon, a cultist and a sick mockery by people claiming to be Christians.

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Are you? Specifically, are you one of the cultists who like to pass themselves off as "Christian"?

There are hundreds of denominations and most of them say the other denominations are wrong and they are the one true denomination.

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And you don't have the discernment to be able to tell who is who? I can, but I have been in this walk for a long time. It would be better for you to spend your time in prayer than railing against the people you call "other Christians".

I prefer the former but generally speaking Christians don't like that concept because it means that the bible and thus all of religion is open to interpretation.

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Private interpretation is the reason the crap you complain about exists in the first place. You've got a lot to learn.

it's just me said:

I don't think YOU do. He was misrepresenting Christian belief and practice.

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Do you have proof he was purposely misrepresenting Christian beliefs or does he genuinely see them that way? If he does it wasn't a strawman fallacy. He doesn't know what your beliefs are, and Christianity is extremely inconsistent.

There is only one church, if you knew Christian belief you would know that.

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Nobody can possibly know Christian beliefs they are extremely inconsistent.

Are you? Specifically, are you one of the cultists who like to pass themselves off as "Christian"?

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How am I supposed to know that? They say they are Christian, you say they aren't, you see the conundrum?

And you don't have the discernment to be able to tell who is who? I can, but I have been in this walk for a long time.

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Everybody says that.

It would be better for you to spend your time in prayer

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I have spent decades praying only to come to the conclusion that I don't need religion and it's dogma and demagoguery to know God.

than railing against the people you think are "other Christians".

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I would leave it alone if they simply stop railing against my family. I am not railing against anybody, I am simply sick of the abuse and refuse to continue to tolerate it.

Private interpretation is the reason the crap you complain about exists in the first place.

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No, jamming what should be private unto other people's lives is why that crap exists. If people could just believe their way and be content that it's theirs this existential angst wouldn't spill out all over everything like a busted sewer pipe.

You've got a lot to learn.

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So far I have learned that I am slapped away before I reach the table, that hatred it's tolerated within Christianity in the midst wicked among us dwell in pews.

It broke my heart to be kicked away like yesterday's garbage. Especially after all I learned and all I loved. I was shoved out in the cold at the moment I needed them most. I tried, but the damage was done the cat was out of the bag. Apparently my soul is like a busted slinky.

I have moved passedthe need for ridiculous rituals, for all their piety they are just like any other country club, conform or be cast out. I willingly leave. Their promises are conditional, their love comes with a catch.

Until you have walked a in my mile shoes you dont know.

You know what, forget it. Why do I think it will be any different, I must be a glutton for punishment to allow Christians to get into my head.

Do you have proof he was purposely misrepresenting Christian beliefs or does he genuinely see them that way? If he does it wasn't a strawman fallacy. He doesn't know what your beliefs are, and Christianity is extremely inconsistent.

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What he believes or doesn't believe is irrelevant. It's a matter of truth and falsehood. Christianity is not "inconsistent", people are inconsistent.

Nobody can possibly know Christian beliefs they are extremely inconsistent.

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That's bull****. Christianity follows one Bible, two testaments, and three Creeds. It's no more complicated than that.

How am I supposed to know that? They say they are Christian, you say they aren't, you see the conundrum?

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Not really. This is not rocket science, people who know what Christianity is have no conundrum.

Everybody says that.

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And not everybody is right.

I have spent decades praying only to come to the conclusion that I don't need religion and it's dogma and demagoguery to know God.

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It doesn't sound like you know God at all.

I would leave it alone if they simply stop railing against my family. I am not railing against anybody, I am simply sick of the abuse and refuse to continue to tolerate it.

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I don't know anything about your personal problems.

No, jamming what should be private unto other people's lives is why that crap exists. If people could just believe their way and be content that it's theirs this existential angst wouldn't spill out all over everything like a busted sewer pipe.

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Christianity has a minimum standard for belief, it was defined by Christ and the Apostles. You can believe whatever you want, it doesn't make you Christian.

Until you have walked a in my mile shoes you dont know.

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I have walked TWO miles in your shoes. I have seen more church splits over stupid **** than you have ever heard of. I was thrown out of and beaten up in the parking lot of a fundie church. I was deserted in MY time of need, too. I am STILL attacked regularly by heretics for my beliefs. If you are waiting for people to validate your beliefs you are in for a long wait. The DIFFERENCE between you and I is that I finally figured out who I put my faith in, and you haven't.

New Testament saints praised God for their persecution, they weren't people to fold up their tents and leave at the first sign of trouble.