Is Religion Based on Pessimism?

Many religious people have a glass half empty. They always assume the worst and blow up any problem out of proportions. Are religious people such due to intrinsic negativity? Someone once told me that a Christian glorifies the fall from grace. They like people who have problems, like if you someone drinks then they want them to become an alcoholic. If someone breaks an arm, they prefer if the bone punctures the skin.

I wouldn't say that most of the religious people I know are pessimistic at all. I tend to think that religion is based on the human ability to imagine and ask the big questions. We want answers to the unknowable, and we are able to imagine great things. Religion helps fulfill the creative need and the belief in absolute greatness.

Not the LDS religion. The Book of Mormon teaches that the purpose of man is joy:

"25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."- 2 Nephi 2:25

The Plan of Happiness is God's plan to infinite joy: https://www.lds.org/topics/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

Religion, like life, is what you make of it. If you want it to be negative, then you will find a way to make it negative - or vice versa.

michijo said:

Many religious people have a glass half empty. They always assume the worst and blow up any problem out of proportions. Are religious people such due to intrinsic negativity? Someone once told me that a Christian glorifies the fall from grace. They like people who have problems, like if you someone drinks then they want them to become an alcoholic. If someone breaks an arm, they prefer if the bone punctures the skin.

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That sounds a lot like a sweeping generalisation to me. Not all religions embrace a horrible concept like original sin; some believe quite the opposite, that humanity is fundamentally good, or that is has no dualistic fundamental nature at all, it simply IS. You probably need to get out more and meet religious people of more different faiths and philosophies.

Andalublue said:

That sounds a lot like a sweeping generalisation to me. Not all religions embrace a horrible concept like original sin; some believe quite the opposite, that humanity is fundamentally good, or that is has no dualistic fundamental nature at all, it simply IS. You probably need to get out more and meet religious people of more different faiths and philosophies.

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I know that the Tibetan Buddhists have no concept of original sin, and that its actually so alien an idea that if one of them encounters Christitanity, their jaw drops, but nevertheless, these buddhists still have conservative ideas about the "secular world" that are similar to sin, except that the idea of being born as a guilty criminal is alien to them.

michijo said:

I know that the Tibetan Buddhists have no concept of original sin, and that its actually so alien an idea that if one of them encounters Christitanity, their jaw drops, but nevertheless, these buddhists still have conservative ideas about the "secular world" that are similar to sin, except that the idea of being born as a guilty criminal is alien to them.

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That's true, Vajrayana (Tibetan) Buddhism was very closely tied into traditionalist, conservative and, some would say, feudal Tibetan society. How could it not be.

Buddhism in general has no concept of original sin, quite the opposite. Many Buddhists (I'm not knowledgable enough to claim that all of them) believe that we all possess what is known as the Buddha Nature, or tathagatagarbha i.e. the essence of impermanence and the underlying potential that all beings possess for enlightenment. In other words, perhaps more easily understood by non-students of Buddhist philosophy, all beings (not just humans, btw) at birth are blessed with this nature, rather than tainted by any primordial 'fall'.

michijo said:

Many religious people have a glass half empty. They always assume the worst and blow up any problem out of proportions. Are religious people such due to intrinsic negativity? Someone once told me that a Christian glorifies the fall from grace. They like people who have problems, like if you someone drinks then they want them to become an alcoholic. If someone breaks an arm, they prefer if the bone punctures the skin.

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Completely wrong. The majority of people with faith find that the presence of that faith makes life immensely more happy and worthwhile for themselves and their families, for their religious communities and families in faith. As opposed to most atheists who seem to act as if their own glass is half full.............of poison.

The overriding question in so many of the posts found in the Religious Forum is why the endless attacks from the non-believers, why is it so important to the atheists that others not have a faith that makes them happy? We see these attacks in here endlessly. Atheists are simply not content in their lack of faith, they seem driven to reach out with rage and anger.

Christians, of course, are always anxious to take others in, to share their faith and happiness with others. Truly that is a blessing to the world.

Ray410 said:

The overriding question in so many of the posts found in the Religious Forum is why the endless attacks from the non-believers, why is it so important to the atheists that others not have a faith that makes them happy? We see these attacks in here endlessly. Atheists are simply not content in their lack of faith, they seem driven to reach out with rage and anger.

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A cursory check of the first page of the Philosophy sub-forum shows me 4 threads started clearly to attack Judaeo-Christian beliefs, and 6 threads directly attacking atheists and non-believers. It seems you might be ignoring the plank in your own eye.

I only feel anger when confronted by religion. In most cases online religious people appear as trolls to cause conflict, to tell people about how bad this or that is. Dont knock on my door and I will sit peacefully at home with my cat, painting, reading, and doing other engaging activities.

Only religion, with its extensive history of invasiveness in my life can bring out anger, like the face of an old enemy opens old wounds. In my experience Christians are often bitter monsters who throw the word Jesus at you until you feel like the parody of Christianity carried out by trashy Americans cant possibly be connected to this other religion from far away in Asia.

michijo said:

Many religious people have a glass half empty. They always assume the worst and blow up any problem out of proportions. Are religious people such due to intrinsic negativity? Someone once told me that a Christian glorifies the fall from grace. They like people who have problems, like if you someone drinks then they want them to become an alcoholic. If someone breaks an arm, they prefer if the bone punctures the skin.

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Is Religion based on pessimism?


Christianity is not. It's in fact the opposite!


It preaches, and shows LOVE. It gives HOPE.

It provides a refuge, and gives solace, and comfort.

It promises rest, and peace, and eternal happiness.

It promises forgiveness to those who seek....and an everlasting life.

tosca1 said:

Christianity is not. It's in fact the opposite!

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Really?

It preaches, and shows LOVE. It gives HOPE.

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Only to those predestined to be saved.

It provides a refuge, and gives solace, and comfort.

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Which kind of presumes that the world is a place from which you'd need to seek refuge.

It promises rest, and peace, and eternal happiness.

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For the select few.

It promises forgiveness to those who seek....and an everlasting life.

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Presuming that from the day you're born, you have need of forgiveness, which again is available to a limited number of humans.

Andalublue said:

Really?
Only to those predestined to be saved.
Which kind of presumes that the world is a place from which you'd need to seek refuge.
For the select few.
Presuming that from the day you're born, you have need of forgiveness, which again is available to a limited number of humans.

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That's the way you look at it. However, that's irrelevant to the topic.


I was responding to the topic question: IS RELIGION BASED ON PESSIMISM?


Thus I gave my response about my religion.

tosca1 said:

Is Religion based on pessimism?

Christianity is not. It's in fact the opposite!

It preaches, and shows LOVE. It gives HOPE.

It provides a refuge, and gives solace, and comfort.

It promises rest, and peace, and eternal happiness.

It promises forgiveness to those who seek....and an everlasting life.

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Andalublue said:

Really?
Only to those predestined to be saved.
Which kind of presumes that the world is a place from which you'd need to seek refuge.
For the select few.
Presuming that from the day you're born, you have need of forgiveness, which again is available to a limited number of humans.

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You presume a lot. The question isn't about presumptions.


Anyway, what is PESSIMISM?

Pessimism is a state of mind in which one anticipates undesirable outcomes or believes that the evil or hardships in life outweigh the good or luxuries.


A Christian anticipates what has been promised by God, - a most desirable outcome - and believes that God's promise outweighs the evil and hardships in life.

Originally Posted by tosca1

Christianity is not. It's in fact the opposite!

Andalublue said:

Really?

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Truly.

It preaches, and shows LOVE. It gives HOPE.

Only to those predestined to be saved.

Presuming that from the day you're born, you have need of forgiveness, which again is available to a limited number of humans

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No. Love and Hope, and Forgiveness is meant for everyone.

The Messiah died for us that we may have that opportunity to enter the Kingdom of God.
The invitation is issued to each and everyone. However, it comes with conditions.


Those predestined to be saved would be those that did His will, wouldn't they? And those that weren't predestined for salvation would be those that didn't obey. Jesus Christ was very specific about that, saying, there'll be those who will not enter the Kingdom.

Since God is All-Knowing, of course He already knows who are going to end up obeying Him or not, He already knows who'll enter His kingdom. Could it be that's why it's been said to be predestined, because He already knew even before we were born how it will end up for each and everyone of us?

It promises rest, and peace, and eternal happiness.

Which kind of presumes that the world is a place from which you'd need to seek refuge.

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No. It's not a presumption at all. The world is indeed a place from which you'd need refuge.

Who among you can truly say you have control of everything that happens to you? Or to your family?

Are there no victims of crime? Illness? Poverty? Natural disasters? Abandonment? Heartbreak? Loss? War? Famine? Oppression? Discrimination? Divorce? Legal battles? Injustice? Instability? Worries? Stress? Nervous breakdowns? Depressions?.....etc.,



Rest, solace, and comfort can be had even while you're still living in this world.

Once you'd given yourself to God, trusting Him, and accepting as He wills with your life - it will be like having a big burden lifted off your shoulders. Its like handing the responsibility to God and letting Him be on the driver seat.
And to you, nothing of this world will matter much anymore.


John 16:33
33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

tosca1 said:

Those predestined to be saved would be those that did His will, wouldn't they? And those that weren't predestined for salvation would be those that didn't obey.

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I see, so salvation is not dependent on grace, but based on good works, i.e. doing his will. Okay.

Andalublue said:

I see, so salvation is not dependent on grace, but based on good works, i.e. doing his will. Okay.

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Doing His will means, OBEDIENCE.

And obedience encompass practically everything.

tosca1 said:

Doing His will means, OBEDIENCE.

And obedience encompass practically everything.

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Oh, that's different. Salvation is achieved through obedience. Got it.

Andalublue said:

Oh, that's different. Salvation is achieved through obedience. Got it.

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We're going off-topic, so create another thread if you want to pursue that.

michijo said:

I only feel anger when confronted by religion. In most cases online religious people appear as trolls to cause conflict, to tell people about how bad this or that is. Dont knock on my door and I will sit peacefully at home with my cat, painting, reading, and doing other engaging activities.

Only religion, with its extensive history of invasiveness in my life can bring out anger, like the face of an old enemy opens old wounds. In my experience Christians are often bitter monsters who throw the word Jesus at you until you feel like the parody of Christianity carried out by trashy Americans cant possibly be connected to this other religion from far away in Asia.

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Next time you're down and out, then, try finding a BITTER ATHEIST'S HOMELESS SHELTER.

Andalublue said:

Oh, that's different. Salvation is achieved through obedience. Got it.

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I don't think Tosca wasn't talking about how salvation is achieved. Salvation is achieved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

tosca1 said:

We're going off-topic, so create another thread if you want to pursue that.

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I think you're deflecting. It's absolutely on-topic to discuss fundamental assumptions on the fallen nature of humanity. It seems a pessimistic view of creation to me, clearly not to you.

Logicman said:

I don't think Tosca wasn't talking about how salvation is achieved. Salvation is achieved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

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That may be your take on it, but she's was pretty unequivocal about her view. She said: "Those predestined to be saved would be those that did His will, wouldn't they? And those that weren't predestined for salvation would be those that didn't obey." No mention of grace, even though I'd prompted her about it.

michijo said:

I only feel anger when confronted by religion. In most cases online religious people appear as trolls to cause conflict, to tell people about how bad this or that is. Dont knock on my door and I will sit peacefully at home with my cat, painting, reading, and doing other engaging activities.

Only religion, with its extensive history of invasiveness in my life can bring out anger, like the face of an old enemy opens old wounds. In my experience Christians are often bitter monsters who throw the word Jesus at you until you feel like the parody of Christianity carried out by trashy Americans cant possibly be connected to this other religion from far away in Asia.

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I guess you don't have television - you ain't seen nothin' yet .....what real invasiveness looks like.
The one that comes right inside your home! It can even be in your own bedroom! :lol:

It's like a relative you invite for a visit....and he never leaves. :mrgreen:

Andalublue said:

That may be your take on it, but she's was pretty unequivocal about her view. She said: "Those predestined to be saved would be those that did His will, wouldn't they? And those that weren't predestined for salvation would be those that didn't obey." No mention of grace, even though I'd prompted her about it.

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Well, what does OBEDIENCE means?


Why did the Messiah come and die for us?

Why did I say the invitation is open to everyone, but it comes with conditions.

What certain conditions has to be met....in order to gain salvation?

What did the Messiah say? What are His instructions?

What's the purpose of His preachings?


Why did I say, OBEDIENCE practically encompass everything?