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Sainthood

Respecthelect

Respecthelect

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Anyone else think Pope's decreeing other Popes as saints is a little self-serving? Catholic's might be well advised to outlaw sainthood for its leadership. Never a fan of sainthood in the first place. Intercession smacks of idolatry, praying to dead people and witchcraft. Maybe one can make an argument for intercession, but the tiniest misstep and that person is in the soup. Best to just toss the whole practice. Does God really need the Pope's help determining who gets into heaven? Why not just give a Catholic "medal of honor?" And leave praying to dead people for satanists?

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Respecthelect said:
Anyone else think Pope's decreeing other Popes as saints is a little self-serving? Catholic's might be well advised to outlaw sainthood for its leadership. Never a fan of sainthood in the first place. Intercession smacks of idolatry, praying to dead people and witchcraft. Maybe one can make an argument for intercession, but the tiniest misstep and that person is in the soup. Best to just toss the whole practice. Does God really need the Pope's help determining who gets into heaven? Why not just give a Catholic "medal of honor?" And leave praying to dead people for satanists?

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It's self-serving as well as deserved. Complaints of idolatry are reserved for protestants who have an infinite desire to reward incessant mutiny.
 
I don't see anything self-serving in it or in any way wrong with giving worthy people sainthood.

A lot of people have been canonized who did a lot of good to other people or the Church. And the 2 popes that are up for sainthood have done a great deal of good.
 
Rainman05 said:
I don't see anything self-serving in it or in any way wrong with giving worthy people sainthood.

A lot of people have been canonized who did a lot of good to other people or the Church.
And the 2 popes that are up for sainthood have done a great deal of good.[
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/QUOTE]




Mikhail Gorbachev has done a great deal of good things for this planet and no one has nominated him for sainthood lately.

This sainthood thing kind of looks like a double line, with each line patting the other on the back, and abused children/adults and disenfranchised women ignored.
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shrubnose said:
Mikhail Gorbachev has done a great deal of good things for this planet and no one has nominated him for sainthood lately.

This sainthood thing kind of looks like a double line, with each line patting the other on the back, and abused children/adults and disenfranchised women ignored.
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I wasn't aware Gorbaciov was a catholic...

Sure, there are a lot of controversies with the catholic church but what can you do. No institution is perfect.
 
Respecthelect said:
Anyone else think Pope's decreeing other Popes as saints is a little self-serving? Catholic's might be well advised to outlaw sainthood for its leadership. Never a fan of sainthood in the first place. Intercession smacks of idolatry, praying to dead people and witchcraft. Maybe one can make an argument for intercession, but the tiniest misstep and that person is in the soup. Best to just toss the whole practice. Does God really need the Pope's help determining who gets into heaven?
Why not just give a Catholic "medal of honor?" And leave praying to dead people for satanists?
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I agree.

This is just one of the many reasons that I dropped out of the Catholic Church.

How can you preach against idolaters when you're one yourself?
 
Respecthelect said:
Anyone else think Pope's decreeing other Popes as saints is a little self-serving?
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 Catholic's might be well advised to outlaw sainthood for its leadership. Never a fan of sainthood in the first place. Intercession smacks of idolatry, praying to dead people and witchcraft. Maybe one can make an argument for intercession, but the tiniest misstep and that person is in the soup. Best to just toss the whole practice. Does God really need the Pope's help determining who gets into heaven? Why not just give a Catholic "medal of honor?" And leave praying to dead people for satanists?

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I find it to be very self-serving.

It's just one of the things that I don't like about the Catholic Church.
 
Rainman05 said:
I wasn't aware Gorbaciov was a catholic...

Sure, there are a lot of controversies with the catholic church but what can you do. No institution is perfect.
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Any institution that is as prejudiced against women and gay people as the Catholic Church is will never be perfect.




"Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll
 
Maybe these pope's did good, but haven't others done good as well? Why are we rewarding the lofty and ignoring the lowly? One hand washing the other? I'll canonize your guy, if you canonize mine? It's the appearance of impropriety. The powerful should recuse themselves. It cheapens sainthood. When one president gives the other a "presidential medal of freedom," it doesn't bolster the award, it tarnishes. The tarnish of self-serving corruption.

I think Protestant's made and make several fair points. If "mutiny" is the determiner of righteousness, is Jesus in trouble? Because, as we approach the five-hundred year anniversary of "reformation" (in 2017), we Catholics still seem to have a way to go. Jesus might just knock over a few statues and whip a few leaders who put HIS flock in jeopardy, were he not waiting to come in fuller glory.

It's difficult to pray for intercession, without praying to dead people. It can be done, but it's tricky and one slip-up puts a person on the wrong side of the issue. Jews "build a fence around the law." Catholics invite members to stick their fingers in the electric breaker box. Maybe the Catholic flock comes out OK, but maybe they get fried?

For a church that justifies graven images on its walls through the former illiteracy of the flock, it places a lot of responsibility to understand nuance on those same illiterate souls?

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I am no longer a Catholic (Obviously), but I remember growing up with a reverence for Saints. It seems to me the idea of Sainthood has been cheapened to the point of irrelevance and no longer has meaning.....even within the church.
 
Respecthelect said:
Anyone else think Pope's decreeing other Popes as saints is a little self-serving? Catholic's might be well advised to outlaw sainthood for its leadership. Never a fan of sainthood in the first place. Intercession smacks of idolatry, praying to dead people and witchcraft. Maybe one can make an argument for intercession, but the tiniest misstep and that person is in the soup. Best to just toss the whole practice. Does God really need the Pope's help determining who gets into heaven? Why not just give a Catholic "medal of honor?" And leave praying to dead people for satanists?

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It would seem the whole notion of saints in the catholic church is not as it should be.

What are Christian saints according to the Bible?
 
Respecthelect said:
Anyone else think Pope's decreeing other Popes as saints is a little self-serving? Catholic's might be well advised to outlaw sainthood for its leadership. Never a fan of sainthood in the first place. Intercession smacks of idolatry, praying to dead people and witchcraft. Maybe one can make an argument for intercession, but the tiniest misstep and that person is in the soup. Best to just toss the whole practice. Does God really need the Pope's help determining who gets into heaven? Why not just give a Catholic "medal of honor?" And leave praying to dead people for satanists?

.
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Ever check how many of the first 100 popes are saints?
IIRC it is 75-80.
 
Sainthood is supposed to be miracle. No decomposition post mortem, possibly stigmata in life, flowery scent upon death, etc.



Declaring someone to be a saint is not a matter for votes, it's supposed to be a simple matter of recognizing existing miracles.

This is where catholic beuracracy fails.
 
The real issue is that the majority of "Catholics" don't know **** about Catholicism. At least in the US, anyway. What do you call Catholics who actually get to know their religion?


Former Catholics.

Har har.
 
KevinKohler said:
Sainthood is supposed to be miracle. No decomposition post mortem, possibly stigmata in life, flowery scent upon death, etc.
Declaring someone to be a saint is not a matter for votes, it's supposed to be a simple matter of recognizing existing miracles.
This is where catholic beuracracy fails.
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Can you provide the biblical references for your definition of sainthood? This is interesting.
 
Cable said:
Can you provide the biblical references for your definition of sainthood? This is interesting.
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There are none. Hence, why Catholics who understand their religion quickly become former Catholics.


The first saints were the martyrs. And there was no process, no beautification, heck, for most of them, no "miracles".

No more harsh religious persecution, no more martyrs, no more saints. So a means to sanctify non martyrs, just really pious, good people, had to be manufactured. Enter the miracles. And no biblical references. But the church couldn't even maintain it's own manufactured set of rules, post public education for much of the population. People getting smarter = harder sell on "miracles". For instance, incorruptability (corpse that doesn't decompose). Hasn't happened in a few hundred years. Why? Because knowledge of embalming practices is now common, and we know what to look for. So on and so forth.

So now, the process is as simple as one pope giving the nod to another (dead) pope.

Blaspheme. But then, I'm not catholic, thank god.
 
Rainman05 said:
I wasn't aware Gorbaciov was a catholic...

Sure, there are a lot of controversies with the catholic church but what can you do. No institution is perfect.
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I wasn't aware that St. Peter was a Catholic. ;)
 
KevinKohler said:
There are none. Hence, why Catholics who understand their religion quickly become former Catholics.


The first saints were the martyrs. And there was no process, no beautification, heck, for most of them, no "miracles".

No more harsh religious persecution, no more martyrs, no more saints. So a means to sanctify non martyrs, just really pious, good people, had to be manufactured. Enter the miracles. And no biblical references. But the church couldn't even maintain it's own manufactured set of rules, post public education for much of the population. People getting smarter = harder sell on "miracles". For instance, incorruptability (corpse that doesn't decompose). Hasn't happened in a few hundred years. Why? Because knowledge of embalming practices is now common, and we know what to look for. So on and so forth.

So now, the process is as simple as one pope giving the nod to another (dead) pope.

Blaspheme. But then, I'm not catholic, thank god.
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Why would the bible read "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me greet you. " if they were dead?
The saints are the body of Christ, his church. Otherwise we seem to agree.
 
Cable said:
Why would the bible read "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me greet you. " if they were dead?
The saints are the body of Christ, his church. Otherwise we seem to agree.
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Which is why Christians (not Catholics) view all other Christians as being saints, as they are the body of Christ, and are thus required to hold true to saintly expectations.

Also remember, the NEW testament was written YEARS after Jesus (and all the other original saints) died.
 
KevinKohler said:
They weren't Catholics.
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Then what were they, Methodists?

ttwtt78640 said:
A married pope?
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Ya, it's not a matter of divine law, unless you're suggesting that Adrian II wasn't Pope either.

KevinKohler said:
Let me rephrase.


They weren't Catholics in modern terms.

Old catholic =/= new catholic.
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And this change occurred when, exactly?

KevinKohler said:
Which is why Christians (not Catholics) view all other Christians as being saints, as they are the body of Christ, and are thus required to hold true to saintly expectations.

Also remember, the NEW testament was written YEARS after Jesus (and all the other original saints) died.
Click to expand...

The new testament was written while at least some of the Apostles were alive.
 
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