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Marcion and the Catholic Church

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UtahBill

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anybody up on this?

Marcionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The premise of Marcionism is that many of the teachings of Christ are incompatible with the actions of the God of the Old Testament. Focusing on the Pauline traditions of the Gospel, Marcion felt that all other conceptions of the Gospel, and especially any association with the Old Testament religion, was opposed to, and a backslidingfrom, the truth. He further regarded the arguments of Paul regarding law and gospel, wrath and grace, works and faith, flesh and spirit, sin and righteousness, death and life, as the essence of religious truth. He ascribed these aspects and characteristics as two principles, the righteous and wrathful God of the Old Testament, who is at the same time identical with the creator of the world, and a second God of the Gospel, quite unknown before Christ, who is only love and mercy.[SUP][9][/SUP]
Marcionites held that the God of the Hebrew Bible (known to some Gnostics as Yaltabaoth) was inconsistent, jealous, wrathful and genocidal, and that the material world he created was defective, a place of suffering; the God who made such a world is a bungling or malicious demiurge.
 
UtahBill said:
anybody up on this?

Marcionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The premise of Marcionism is that many of the teachings of Christ are incompatible with the actions of the God of the Old Testament. Focusing on the Pauline traditions of the Gospel, Marcion felt that all other conceptions of the Gospel, and especially any association with the Old Testament religion, was opposed to, and a backslidingfrom, the truth. He further regarded the arguments of Paul regarding law and gospel, wrath and grace, works and faith, flesh and spirit, sin and righteousness, death and life, as the essence of religious truth. He ascribed these aspects and characteristics as two principles, the righteous and wrathful God of the Old Testament, who is at the same time identical with the creator of the world, and a second God of the Gospel, quite unknown before Christ, who is only love and mercy.[SUP][9][/SUP]
Marcionites held that the God of the Hebrew Bible (known to some Gnostics as Yaltabaoth) was inconsistent, jealous, wrathful and genocidal, and that the material world he created was defective, a place of suffering; the God who made such a world is a bungling or malicious demiurge.
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Yeah, it's rediculous though, you CANNOT understand the NT, any of the gospels or Paul without undersanding the Hebrew bible, it simply doesn't work.
 
ummm...where does the Catholic Church come in?

Marcionism is an old heresy.
 
RGacky3 said:
Yeah, it's rediculous though, you CANNOT understand the NT, any of the gospels or Paul without undersanding the Hebrew bible, it simply doesn't work.
Click to expand...

Disagree, if we taught the NT without the OT, there wouldn't be anything important lost related to Christian beliefs.
 
Monserrat said:
ummm...where does the Catholic Church come in?

Marcionism is an old heresy.
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if it wasn't for the Catholic church doing their best to discredit Marcion, we would not know anything about him.
 
UtahBill said:
if it wasn't for the Catholic church doing their best to discredit Marcion, we would not know anything about him.
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If they didn't discredit him his followers might have grown in numbers instead of dying down as quickly as it did.
 
He was a heretic and a blasphemer.
 
UtahBill said:
Disagree, if we taught the NT without the OT, there wouldn't be anything important lost related to Christian beliefs.
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Just like how if we taught differential calculus without basic arithmetic, there wouldn't be anything important lost. :roll:
 
It's interesting that you call the God of the OT genocidal, considering who made the last major push for abolition of the OT.
 
From Wiki:

In 144, Marcion became one of the first declared heresiarchs for his deviations from the orthodox viewpoints of the apostolic church. The suppression of the Marcionist form of Christianity is thus viewed[10] as a catalyst for the development of the New Testament canon, the establishment of a centralised church law, and the structuring of the Church.
Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Paleocon said:
Just like how if we taught differential calculus without basic arithmetic, there wouldn't be anything important lost. :roll:
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and what percentage of the population needs to know calculus?
Churches complicate the issues, Jesus tried to simplify salvation, but the people like their pomp and ceremony, even tho they add little to the path to salvation as given by Christ himself...
 
UtahBill said:
and what percentage of the population needs to know calculus?
Churches complicate the issues, Jesus tried to simplify salvation, but the people like their pomp and ceremony, even tho they add little to the path to salvation as given by Christ himself...
Click to expand...

The point is, if you remove the basis of the truth, it loses credibility.
 
UtahBill said:
Disagree, if we taught the NT without the OT, there wouldn't be anything important lost related to Christian beliefs.
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You woudn't know what the messiah is .... first of all, you wouldn't know what covenant means, you wouldn't know anything about who Yahweh is, and so on. Christianity is based on Judaism. which is why the OT is quoted hundreds of times in the NT.
 
RGacky3 said:
You woudn't know what the messiah is .... first of all, you wouldn't know what covenant means, you wouldn't know anything about who Yahweh is, and so on. Christianity is based on Judaism. which is why the OT is quoted hundreds of times in the NT.
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I don't think so, Judaism got so distorted that Christ had to come and set things back on course....He was very critical of the hypocrites and self serving leadership of Judaism....
 
UtahBill said:
anybody up on this?

Marcionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The premise of Marcionism is that many of the teachings of Christ are incompatible with the actions of the God of the Old Testament. Focusing on the Pauline traditions of the Gospel, Marcion felt that all other conceptions of the Gospel, and especially any association with the Old Testament religion, was opposed to, and a backslidingfrom, the truth. He further regarded the arguments of Paul regarding law and gospel, wrath and grace, works and faith, flesh and spirit, sin and righteousness, death and life, as the essence of religious truth. He ascribed these aspects and characteristics as two principles, the righteous and wrathful God of the Old Testament, who is at the same time identical with the creator of the world, and a second God of the Gospel, quite unknown before Christ, who is only love and mercy.[SUP][9][/SUP]
Marcionites held that the God of the Hebrew Bible (known to some Gnostics as Yaltabaoth) was inconsistent, jealous, wrathful and genocidal, and that the material world he created was defective, a place of suffering; the God who made such a world is a bungling or malicious demiurge.
Click to expand...

The Christians usurped the Pagan holidays for the same reason, if you start with something people are familiar with than they are more open to conversion. The OT and NT gods are clearly different, but by usurping the old god and claiming to be the same, they add credibility to their cult and may find an easier time converting other religions over. At least until you have enough to make and army; then you can force people to convert.
 
Paleocon said:
So you deny the divinity of Christ?
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no, if anybody is, it is you....
If you can make assumptions about me, I can make them about you....

BTW, on PBS tonight in my area there is a 2 hour special on the Jewish faith...
Maybe it is on in your area as well....
 
Its what happens when you create a religion by committee, the reason why so many different dogmas appeared during the early days of christianity is precisely because of many many inconsistencies between the NT and the OT and within each other as well- the fundamental problems of having a single god are compounded when the concept of good and evil are brought forward, how can a single god be considered good when evil exists? The Marcionites were able to counter this by explaining a concept of dual gods, like the Manicheans and many other Gnostic christians. Even up to today these inconsistencies have not been resolved.
 
UtahBill said:
I don't think so, Judaism got so distorted that Christ had to come and set things back on course....He was very critical of the hypocrites and self serving leadership of Judaism....
Click to expand...

Yes, The Temple leadership and some of the Rabbis. But Jesus was a dedicated Jew and him and his apostles and Paul cited the OT as authority over and over again.
 
UtahBill said:
no, if anybody is, it is you....
If you can make assumptions about me, I can make them about you....

BTW, on PBS tonight in my area there is a 2 hour special on the Jewish faith...
Maybe it is on in your area as well....
Click to expand...

You said that citing the Son of God as proof of the validity of the OT was circular reasoning. How else was I to take that?
 
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